A skiers relationship with Avalanches.

A snowHead

Avalanches are an everyday hazard of our sport and have taken countless lives over the years. They put the willys up the vast majority of us, but what is a top level skiiers relationship with avalanches?

I am are talking of the ski mountaineering type of skier, those that will regularly strap on ice axes and crampons, and head to the highest, most remote peaks that few of us will ever experience.

Is there a kick involved when an avalanche is triggered, that the rest of will will never know?

Or are they just as scared as the rest of us?

A snowHead

Have you met scarpa?

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

No. I think everyone is poo-poo Be Nice please!

scared of them.

I kinda of get where you're coming from, but there are different types of danger/risk: skiing faster/straighter/steeper and jjumping of bigger stuff is a good sort of excitement, and fun, and success is 100% dependent on your skill; there's nothing glorious or fun about avalanches, and surviving them is about luck, or the skill of your partners.

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No

It is not so much controversial but possibly disrespectful to avalanche victims to insinuate that they relished the idea of an avalanche

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@peanuthead, no disrespect to the those who have tragically died from avalanches. This is a simple trying to understand what plays in a big mountain skiers brain.

The human brain, it's capabilities and it's triggers interest me. @clarky999. Not everyone functions the same. Some things that resound as completely dangerous and barmy to one person are easy to others. Our triggers are individual based upon our life experiences. There are plenty of experiences where I have been lucky to come out unscathed across a number of sports, and when I hit the calm, but my heart is beating something Massachistically says.... AGAIN

I can't really explain it, other than a warped version of fight or flight

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I can't think of anything better than driving my Discovery with summer tyres into avi terrain on a transfer day! What a buzz!

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After all it is free

Part of the attraction of adventure sports for some is the overt element of risk - climbers are always telling tales of their near-death 'epics'

@Daleybou1234, I know you don't mean any disrespect. But I think it is probably incredibly rare for someone to WANT to be involved in an avalanche, just like no surfer wants to be swept out to sea. The reason we ski off-piste is nothing to do with wanting to see an avalanche. We are more guilty of minimizing the avalanche issue.

I think you just need to be careful starting threads like this though as I am sure anyone who knows someone who got lost in an avalanche won't appreciate it.

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I do think sometimes ski movies can be irresponsible in showing footage of people setting off or skiing in and around slides, for the aesthetic of it. I don't think we should be sending out the message, particularly to younger and impressionable skiers, that being involved in avalanche is anything other than a failure to be analysed and learned from.

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@peanuthead, I completely take your point of view. And the thread was never meant to disrespect anyone. I've deleted my original post as to not offend or upset anyone.

@8611, the thread was started after watching into the mind after a bottle of red, it got my brain thinking.

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@Daleybou1234, I'd be very surprised if anyone was offended! I think you should put your question back up. It's a perfectly valid topic of conversation IMO.

I also think you should put the question back up! Or rephrase it to our relationship with avalanches or something. Maybe a bit unfair to name an individual skier, particularly one who's father was killed in an avalanche, unless there's some very strong indicators that he does enjoy being in them?

You know it makes sense.

@clarky999, @8611, I've re worded it now, let me know what you think?

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Perfectly fair question, I think. I am reasonably confident that there is peer-reviewed research into the way some people are less effected by fear and danger, and I wonder if this core characteristic is at the root of how ski mountaineering types deal with the potential for avalanches. I personally don't want to be in one and I don't suppose even the most out there pros want to be either, but a combination of their skiing ability and an ability to 'park' the fear of injury or death contribute to a situation wherein they are more at ease with the possibility that a slide may occur.

I've heard more pros recently commenting on 'slough management' - there is skill in that, I imagine, although you still can't stop an avalanche happening this, I guess, can stop you being swept away by your own slough so is perhaps more like the kayaking analogy. I don't kayak, and I certainly haven't ever had to manage my own slough (!) but is that a reasonably parallel clarky999 ?

A snowHead

Lets be honest : The most fun skiing you have is fresh snow on 30+ degree slopes.
These however also happen to be potential avalanche zones.....

If you were a mountaineer on foot then you would avoid open faces and ascend by ridge lines.
The line between "good skiing" and "avalanche risk" is precariously thin.

As mentioned above a good case can be made that ski movies are somewhat irresponsible.
Far removed from the reality of normal off piste skiing and often promote the idea that skiers can outrun avalanches.

A snowHead

I am scared of them. I got taken 100m down a slope by one and would not like to do it again.
Does it stop me going off piste, no. But it makes me more cautious!

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

@Daleybou1234, don't know whether I qualify as a "top level skier" but I like to get off the beaten track and occasionally use mountaineering kit. anyway, IME there is nothing cool or fun about avalanches and any sane person (IMV) will do all they can to manage the risk. that said, as you gain experience and get educated, it isn't an irrational fear, more an acknowledgement that there is a risk and that it is something to be managed. if I am making assessments, I know I have quite a low risk tolerance and I like to think I know how to make decisions which stay within that tolerance (touch wood). you do have to accept that these is an inherent risk in skiing off piste, but that is the case with pretty much any activity (including getting out of bed in the morning!) so it's a case of managing the risk down to something you are OK with, rather than not doing the activity at all

the guys doing really gnarly stuff have more skill than me, more experience than me AND a higher risk tolerance than me. you occasionally hear talk about so-and-so-who-just-died being very analytical and making "safe" decisions. i don't really think "safe" is a very helpful term in these circumstances - it's better to say "within their risk tolerances"

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Just read an interview with Ueli Steck (top mountaineer) in which he was reflecting on his greatest achievements (e.g. solo South face of Annapurna in 28 hours) and he was saying that you can only tackle those kind of extreme challenges a handful of times, certainly not 20. His point was that you may have superb skills and make good decisions but the residual risk is such that it will catch up with you eventually. Either you keep doing it until you get killed or you "back off" and do something different. He said that of the leading French aplinists of the 80s an 90s only Christophe Profit was still alive and that was because he backed off and worked as a guide.

Just thought that was an interesting parallel with what Arno was saying about the extreme guys working within a very high risk tolerance!

So these guys accept risk and clearly enjoy putting themselves in extreme situations to test themselves. But my sense is that it is the climbing (or skiing) challenge the want not the Russian roulette of avalanche or rock fall. I don't think climbers seek out "objective dangers" they are a price to be paid for climbing the next super hard line. I suspect extreme skiers would love to ski ultra steep, cannot fall stuff free from avi risk.

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Two US ski team members were killed in Sölden today. Not sure yet who they were, ORF hasn't yet published their names. Sad

They were evidently members of the US C team. They were under the snow for about 45 minutes before being dug out. That's a run that I have done a few times. Slightly sobering.

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I would wager that just about every extreme mountaineering/big mtn skier has had the expererience of being caught in, nearly caught in, or knows somebody caught in an avi. I don't think they relish the thought of being in an avi one bit. Avi's scare the wee wee out of me, and if they don't cause fear in someone who travels in the backcountry, then that person is either a clueless idiot, or someone with a death wish.

Just getting caught in a small bit of slough on steep slopes gets my heart pounding to the red line. That's as close as I ever want to experience anything remotely resembling an avalanche. I've seen some very big ones from a distance. The sight and sound is incredible.

After all it is free

Was adjacent to a slide years ago and only minutes before we passed above those who triggered it and died, three in all. We chose not to take the route they were going to go down as it just was not right and went about 600 plus meters further out, crossing over a ridge split to what appeared a stable face which it was. When the slide triggered it was that low sickening and undeniable grumbling that had us looking up 'tout suite' only to eventualy see it way over to the side where we had previously crossed above. Still highly bothered by that to this day.

Saw a photo in a magazine years ago taken above a guy who was about to jump into a bitchin' coulour. The caption was along the lines of.........., "If it's safe it will be one helluva run. If not one gets a set of wings and a harp".

No 100% absolute guarantee regarding safe routes - even upon controlled region - but many who get a set of wings and a harp went too far out on that not so proverbial limb. I lost a friend who did just that and none of us were surpised when we heard of what (eventually) happened.

Be wise. Enjoy your time. Noblesse oblige.

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I don't think you'll ever find a top-level freeride video make light of avalanche risks. I also have never seen any evidence of the 'its ok, just ski out of it' type attitude mentioned above. I actually think allof the 'epic' videos on YouTube teach a very sobering/respectful approach to avalanche education and mitigating risks.

A good example: this video is incredibly tongue in cheek and fun (it's 30% mockumentary/70% serious - it's part of a 2 part "fake head-to-head" skit), but as soon as they enter avalanche terrain (0m56s) the skiers immediately stop being able to finish their runs [owing to avalanches either side #brownpantmoments]; so they move to "smaller and safer slopes". There's no ego or drama to it; only respect for the mountain (and them being in the wrong bit of it), and I think this is educational in the right way. I've only ever seen vids on Youtube that communicate the same message; i.e. respect the mountain; don't take unnecessary risks; don't put ego over safety.

http://youtube.com/v/5atXjMrG76I

(There's actually a bit in this video where someone's taking a dump and the cornice they're crouching/squatting on breaks off and they nearly die - and again it's treated as anything but cool: it's treated as scary and bad. The guy then borrows some skis and crushes a run about 10 minutes later, which is just immense; so clearly at that level there is a need to 'get back on the horse after a fall' which I can totally respect, too).

I think a large part of it is that most of these guys have lost true friends to avalanches and would never *dream* of making light of it.

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A skiers relationship with Avalanches.

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