 Poster: A snowHead
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I finally learn that helmet threads do nothing but go round and round and round and.......................
They do nothing but feed the ego of idiots, idiots who think no one should wear helmets, and idiots who think everyone should.
There is a balance, somewhere in the middle. Your choice, wear one or not. End.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@clarky999, OMG first the dodgy snow boots and now the dislike of tomatoes?!!!! I'm off to find a new internet stranger crush. Gutted.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| thecramps wrote: |
| I finally learn that helmet threads do nothing but go round and round and round ... |
They also add pages (thanks for opening p.5) and hits at a remarkable velocity. This thread has notched up 4000+ hits in 2 days.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@Comedy Goldsmith, like I said, it just feeds the ego of idiots.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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thecramps, you're actually 100% wrong, though this may not be apparent yet.
Once the Great Helmet Saleswagon has run its course (they've been selling strongly for about 10 years. Skiing has a recreational history of 100-150 years), people will find their heads and skiing are equally safe in woolly hats.
There really is a very low risk of significant head injury in skiing (and a vastly reduced risk of any other injuries), especially if one trains to ski in a way which minimises falling and maximises ski control.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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You are missing the point. We don't wear helmets to prevent head injury. We wear them because they are more comfortable and stop goggles steaming up. Honestly! We all know helmets have little or no effectiveness against head injury. Bicycle helmets in particular have almost zero effectiveness.
You are barking up the wrong tree!
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@Comedy Goldsmith, Are you really dim witted or do you just have a thick skin.
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| thecramps wrote: |
I finally learn that helmet threads do nothing but go round and round and round and.......................
They do nothing but feed the ego of idiots, idiots who think no one should wear helmets, and idiots who think everyone should.
There is a balance, somewhere in the middle. Your choice, wear one or not. End. |
(I added the emphasis)
Who said everyone should wear a helmet? Did I miss something? I've heard a load of people say why they wear helmets themselves, but I haven't heard any moralising from them. The conspiracy theorists (theorist?) who think(s) that everyone needs to follow them/him sit on one side of the fence only.
Live and let live, I say.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Jonny Jones, There has been none in this thread, but they exist.
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I've had my life saved while white-water kayaking, courtesy of a decent helmet.
I had two vertebrae in my neck crushed in a mountain-biking accident. Had I not been wearing my helmet, I would have come off a lot worse.
So far I can only offer that my ski helmet has made it a lot more comfortable skiing with goggles and has kept me warm on the coldest days. I have very long eyelashes for a bloke - think bovine - and can't get on with sunnies as my eyelashes hit the back over every pair of wrap-arounds I've ever tried and I only need to look at a cold day for my eyes to start streaming, so goggles are a must.
First helmet I had, a Scott something or other, was horrible. Too bulky, reduced my hearing, poor peripheral vision and way too hot. I was ready to give up on them but thought I'd try a few more before I discovered a Uvex that fitted beautifully and kept me in touch with my surroundings.
So on balance, I'm ok with helmets, but if I could get away with sunglasses I may not have persisted to helmet #2
Tomatoes rock, fact.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Message right
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| thecramps wrote: |
| @Comedy Goldsmith, Are you really dim witted or do you just have a thick skin. |
Dim witted then.
Goodnight Mr Goldsmith.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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round and round and round and round and........................................................................................................................!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Chris Bish wrote: |
You are missing the point. We don't wear helmets to prevent head injury. We wear them because they are more comfortable and stop goggles steaming up. Honestly! We all know helmets have little or no effectiveness against head injury. Bicycle helmets in particular have almost zero effectiveness.
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RoSPA has published a lengthy meta-study that suggests quite strongly that bicycle helmets do reduce injury, more in reducing minor than major injury and more in children than adults. It also cites studies that show conclusively that compulsory helmet legislation reduces cycle use, especially by children.
I do not find cycle helmets particularly comfortable, especially in warm weather and I miss the feeling of wind in my hair. I've tried different models. I used to wear a helmet for MTBing but not on the road as I felt the risk was lower. I started using one on the road after a rabbit ran just in front of me. Two inches closer and I'd have been over the handlebars at 30mph. Quite honestly though, peer pressure has something to do with it too as all local "serious" cyclists now use helmets and I wouldn't be surprised if skiing went the same way. It's not so very long ago that for a gentlemen to go outside without a hat was a sign of wild eccentricity and conformity and peer pressure have more to do with these decisions than we'd like to think.
I don't wear a helmet for skiing and from my experience cycling, I don't think I'd like it. If I did the kind of skiing where hitting rocks or trees was a major possibility, I might rethink. I've never hit my head in 5 decades of skiing. I realise once might be one time too many but you can't eliminate all risk and being taken out by another skier worries me more than hitting my head.
I think climbers have it right. If there's a significant chance of something dropping on your head e.g. ice- or sea-cliff climbing, wear a helmet. If not, most don't. In other words, make the risk assessment that's right for you and what you will be doing.
Goggles or glasses? The answer is both, depending on the weather.
To the gentleman who finds hats so uncomfortable, I'd suggest trying a different hat.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| ansta1 wrote: |
@Jonny Jones [...] I could wear a helmet with glasses but this has other problems and risks. [...]
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I always wear glasses with a helmet. What are these other problems and risks of which you speak?
(Apart from the odd "gap" issue, which I agree is a PITA, but not I think a signficant risk - other than to incite boorish behaviour in others)
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| thecramps wrote: |
| @Comedy Goldsmith, Are you really dim witted or do you just have a thick skin. |
It took you a while to get there !
Both is the answer. He has been doing this for over 10 years here and much longer on the SCGB site - until he was eventually thrown out of the club.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| dogwatch wrote: |
| Chris Bish wrote: |
You are missing the point. We don't wear helmets to prevent head injury. We wear them because they are more comfortable and stop goggles steaming up. Honestly! We all know helmets have little or no effectiveness against head injury. Bicycle helmets in particular have almost zero effectiveness.
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RoSPA has published a lengthy meta-study that suggests quite strongly that bicycle helmets do reduce injury, more in reducing minor than major injury and more in children than adults. It also cites studies that show conclusively that compulsory helmet legislation reduces cycle use, especially by children.
I do not find cycle helmets particularly comfortable, especially in warm weather and I miss the feeling of wind in my hair. I've tried different models. I used to wear a helmet for MTBing but not on the road as I felt the risk was lower. I started using one on the road after a rabbit ran just in front of me. Two inches closer and I'd have been over the handlebars at 30mph. Quite honestly though, peer pressure has something to do with it too as all local "serious" cyclists now use helmets and I wouldn't be surprised if skiing went the same way. It's not so very long ago that for a gentlemen to go outside without a hat was a sign of wild eccentricity and conformity and peer pressure have more to do with these decisions than we'd like to think.
I don't wear a helmet for skiing and from my experience cycling, I don't think I'd like it. If I did the kind of skiing where hitting rocks or trees was a major possibility, I might rethink. I've never hit my head in 5 decades of skiing. I realise once might be one time too many but you can't eliminate all risk and being taken out by another skier worries me more than hitting my head.
I think climbers have it right. If there's a significant chance of something dropping on your head e.g. ice- or sea-cliff climbing, wear a helmet. If not, most don't. In other words, make the risk assessment that's right for you and what you will be doing.
Goggles or glasses? The answer is both, depending on the weather.
To the gentleman who finds hats so uncomfortable, I'd suggest trying a different hat. |
It's posts like these that make this forum worthwhile - informative and set in the wider context. Very good point about peer pressure - a few years ago I thought middle-aged blokes pootling about on the blue and red pistes wearing helmets looked rather naff and as much as I like to think I've changed my views on sound, rational grounds I realise that my decision to wear a helmet has as much to do with "conformity and peer pressure" as anything else.
And if we're looking for a celebrity tragedy that influenced helmet-wearing I'd say that the sad death of Natasha Richardson was more important than Michael Schumacher's accident.
In any case it's the minor, holiday-affecting injuries that I expect my helmet to reduce, not a big impact with a tree or another skier.
I would say that if you find helmets so uncomfortable; try a different helmet. 
In fact, try loads - there must be one the right shape for you out there.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@Comedy Goldsmith, as a spectacle wearer (and one who doesn't use contact lenses), I find that wearing goggles often causes problems with the spectacles steaming up. However in recent years I have found a very effective solution in wearing a ski helmet of the type with a front visor. I trust you will accept that in my case I have found wearing such helmets is the best solution for me. 
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Each to their own, as adults we can make our choice and take our chance. I dont have children but if I did I would almost certainly get helmets for them and I believe this is now obligatory for the little people in some destinations. I think the debate is very valuable in raising the awareness of the seriousness of concussion and how to look after someone who has hit their head. I do have a friend who fell and whose ski whipped up around his head and sliced into the front of his temple severing an artery, he was airlifted to hospital and the injury managed appropriately, he always wears a helmet now but I would have to say I put that particular accident and its outcome down to a freak one off. I personally dont wear a helmet but would never say never.
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@Alastair Pink, you don't have to justify your decisions to him, you know. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| thecramps wrote: |
| @Comedy Goldsmith, Are you really dim witted or do you just have a thick skin. |
| Scrumpy wrote: |
Both is the answer. He has been doing this for over 10 years here and much longer on the SCGB site - until he was eventually thrown out of the club. |
You can throw whatever you like, out of whatever you like (and - by the way - that expulsion was illegal under the SCGB's own rules. More about that later). One day you'll actually deal with the ethics and accountability of your club, rather than pontificating in this absurd bumptious way.
Funnily enough - or rather not at all - 14 years ago (much more than 10 years ago) the SCGB conned its members into buying helmets with a mail-order offer, saying ...
| Quote: |
Headline NEWS
Did You Know?
"With just a woolly hat on for protection, even if it does have the latest in fleece technology, Newton's law still equates this to a large sledge hammer striking a melon in the event of a bad accident ... with head injuries accounting for 50% of reported accidents ... it makes more than good sense to invest in one [helmet]." |
[SCGB 'Club Talk', Spring 2000, Ski Club of Great Britain]
5 years ago the SCGB jointly published a commercial press release with the discount rental chain Ski Republic, containing other bogus claims relating to head injuries and helmets. Because this was accepted in good faith by the Daily Telegraph (the information had, after all been issued by the Ski Club of Great Britain) a Press Complaints Commission report highlighted the SCGB's actions:
http://www.pcc.org.uk/news/index.html?article=NjI4Ng==
15 days ago the Club was at it again ...
| Quote: |
| “The slopes will get crowded,” said the SCGB spokeswoman. “Ski safely and always wear a helmet." |
http://www.theguardian.com/travel/2014/dec/21/alps-ski-resorts-snow-shortage-holidays
Get real, Scrumpy. Your club has a 14-year history of pushing helmets, or lording it about helmets ... and not providing its members with the scientific information on which they can make independent intelligent decisions for themselves.
http://ski-injury.com/specific-injuries/head
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Mon 5-01-15 13:58; edited 1 time in total
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@Comedy Goldsmith, David, could you edit the thread title, as Michael has been in a coma he has not persuaded anyone to do anything. Has MS accident persuaded etc.
Thanks.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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blahblahblah, that's a reasonable request. It's done. The copy of the opening post explained the title and its incorrectness - it was essentially to reflect the media's repeated citation of this accident, apparently to persuade people that the helmet had saved MS's life, rather than to examine whether the helmet itself might have been a factor in the accident (the presence of mounted GoPro also recently raising questions).
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Greater awareness and a bigger market for helmets will drive competition and innovation.
Innovation will drive helmet technology to the point where the the benefits of wearing one will be proven (if it hasn't been already?).
Arguing the benefits of not wearing a helmet is pointless and regressive in my opinion. Debate is a good thing, but surely we should using our time/resources to push for better technology in helmets?
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You know it makes sense.
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| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
| thecramps wrote: |
| @Comedy Goldsmith, Are you really dim witted or do you just have a thick skin. |
| Scrumpy wrote: |
Both is the answer. He has been doing this for over 10 years here and much longer on the SCGB site - until he was eventually thrown out of the club. |
You can throw whatever you like, out of whatever you like (and - by the way - that expulsion was illegal under the SCGB's own rules. More about that later). One day you'll actually deal with the ethics and accountability of your club, rather than pontificating in this absurd bumptious way.
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Yes - My Club not yours !
And there is only one person around here pontificating in an absurdly bumptious way - and it ain't me !
I, and most of the people here, can use the simple laws of observed physics to note that an impact to the head would be lessened by the wearing of a helmet.
The particular circumstances of any tumble, fall or crash are different every time and we are all aware that the results of a highspeed crash would be different from a low speed one and that a helmet might offer very effective protection in one and much less in the other. I did not decide to wear a helmet after reading any particular advice - but I did read advice on how to buy a correctly fitting one - and- like my bike helmet - I try to wear it at the advised "more forward" angle than many people do.
Most of us wish to make up our own minds on the subject - kindly respect our right to do so.
[/i]
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Sure ... and your larger paragraph is of scant value to Michael Schumacher or reassurance to those trying to comprehend his fate.
What about the 3 examples (amongst others) of your club - cited above - publishing untruthful information about helmets, or straying from the official SCGB line on helmets (which it so begrudgingly retreated to)?
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Poster: A snowHead
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1.Michael Schumacher landed, at speed, on a sharp rock, (not the one that "tripped" him), which shattered his helmet as I recall - and personally I would rather be dead than locked into whatever hell he is now in.
Apparently he has cried when hearing family speak - I would cry too if I was kept, effectively, in solitary confinement with no way out.
2.The writer on wwwski-injury.com whom you like to link to concludes :
So, to conclude, I am a helmet wearer and would always recommend (but not force) others to wear one too. Although the absolute risk of a head injury (especially a serious one) is low, there is good evidence to indicate that a helmet will protect you against many of the common injuries that the head is susceptible to when on the slopes. They are especially important for children, who run a higher generic risk of snow sport injury and who aren't always as risk aware as adults. Helmets seem to have their most protective effect in incidents involving low speed impacts (below 15 mph) and for falls leading to blows to the head on the snow surface although Shealy's data now suggests they might have an influence on more serious injuries too.
If you do decide to wear a helmet, make sure it fits properly and meets one of the accepted standards for snowsports. Don't put ill fitting or hand me down helmets on children and replace any helmet that has suffered a significant impact.
There is no evidence to date that helmets predispose the wearer to a higher risk of neck injury or cause injury to others. Neither that they significantly restrict vision, hearing or general sensory awareness although anecdotally there will always be those who disagree.
Finally though, be aware that there is no conclusive scientific evidence that helmets reduce the risk of death in the event of a high speed collision with another object. Wearing a helmet does not make you invincible and should be regarded as a secondary defence against injury as it may not offer you complete protection if you have a high speed impact - so go careful, especially if there are trees on or near the pistes you're using.
Serious head injuries though are very rare and as a result in my opinion (and that of most other snow sports researchers) the overall risk does not justify a blanket law mandating their use."
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Wow! Shall we play a game of spot the logical fallacy? You're on your way to collecting the set, CG:
Strawman: you've misrepresented the argument in favour of helmets as being solely about safety and, in particular, about saving people from fatalities or serious injury. It isn't.
Fallacy fallacy: you've drawn the conclusion that because the argument in favour of helmets has been made poorly by some, it is therefore fallacious. That conclusion does not follow.
False cause: You've argued that the stubborn level of serious ski injuries in the face of rising helmet use is caused by helmets encouraging reckless behaviour. Statistics cannot be used in that way - you need to examine other possible causes.
Anecdotal: You've cited anecdotes of Go Pro mounts as a cause for helmets being ineffective. You can't rely on anecdote and hearsay to make an argument.
Burden of proof: You've repeatedly made the claim that helmets encourage bad skiing. The burden of proof lies with the person making a claim, but you haven't provided any.
Ad hominem: You've suggested that the SCGB and the helmet industry are Bad People and that therefore their claims are wrong. You need to address what they say, not who they are.
Black and white: You've suggested that skiers can either learn to ski safely or wear a helmet. These are not either/or ideas: you can also do neither or both.
Or am I misunderstanding you? My apologies, if so. Feel free to correct me; I won't be offended.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Jonny Jones wrote: |
Or am I misunderstanding you? My apologies, if so. Feel free to correct me; I won't be offended. |
No, you're merely semi-fictionalising what I've written, rather than directly quoting it. What's the point of that?
If you need an example of the helmet industry misbehaving by compromising users' safety (a little ironic in their position) I'd cite the insertion of music headphones inside the shell.
It's not a bad idea to know of approaching human projectiles, when they're out of control.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@Tragedy Goldsmith, and the conclusions from the website you linked to quoted in my post above? - why don't you just ignore them because they don't say what you want to hear? Oh - you did 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Jonny Jones, Well said !
@Tragedy Goldsmith, no one has the desire to re-read your multiple postings - Jonny has it well summarised - not semi-fictionalised
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
| blahblahblah, that's a reasonable request. It's done. The copy of the opening post explained the title and its incorrectness - it was essentially to reflect the media's repeated citation of this accident, apparently to persuade people that the helmet had saved MS's life, rather than to examine whether the helmet itself might have been a factor in the accident (the presence of mounted GoPro also recently raising questions). |
Thank you David. I also get your points on this.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I'm on my phone so apologies if I've missed the post but have you read the report on helmet safety that I linked for you CG?
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FAQ
