 Poster: A snowHead
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| andy from embsay wrote: |
I live in a village in the Dales, and three years ago we had packed snow on the roads for about three weeks - absolutely unprecedented. I was driving a RWD Jag at the time with big fat summer tyres. Got to work every day.
I'm absolutely convinced that if I had somewhere to store a spare set of wheels (I don't) and I drove to the Alps (I don't) then I would almost certainly get a set - but it's getting almost "helmet thread"-like when people suggest criminal irresponsibility for not putting on winter tyres - I've driven for thirty years in the lakes, the dales and even drove out of the Chamonix valley in the epic storm that caught Jamie Andrew and Jamie Fisher on the Dru, and with careful use of chains I've never got stuck or crashed. |
Did you use your chains during those 3 weeks on 'packed snow' in the Dales?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Nope. Because apart from the road up to our house they keep the main roads pretty clear - as i suspect they do in most parts of the UK.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| wyspa wrote: |
| welshskier wrote: |
| Winter tyres perform much better than summer below 7°C and only marginally worse in higher temperatures, which is why some large Swiss companies just leave them on all year and save storage/changing costs. I have never heard of any problems with motorway driving. |
It's not only about the compound used. Summer tyres are better suited to deal with rain at higher speeds, aquaplanning, etc. |
The winter tyre tests generally find that winter tyres resist aquaplaning much better than summer tyres. This is one such test http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/motoringvideo/9715518/Winter-tyres-put-to-the-test.html
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| andy from embsay wrote: |
| Nope. Because apart from the road up to our house they keep the main roads pretty clear - as i suspect they do in most parts of the UK. |
So your observation that, "we had packed snow on the roads for about three weeks.." perhaps gives the wrong impression of the conditions you actually had to deal with?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Noooo...because there was packed snow on the road to my house (a hill, as it happens) for three weeks and I went to work every day. I think you might be ever so slightly missing the point - whilst I agree winter tyres are undoubtedly smashing and super, I was pointing it's perfectly possible to survive the icy wastes of the UK for several decades without them with a bit of careful driving. I've only ever used chains in the alps - as I said if I drove there a lot then I'd get some winter tyres, but the suggestion that it's almost impossible to get through a UK winter without them is just not true.
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I think this thread has degenerated a bit - but its inevitable based on the nature of the topic. Anytime you have traffic chaos on roads in winter and alpine conditions there will be winter tyre debates.
Perhaps sensible to round off to be honest. I'm heading out on Sat, and looking forward to a great week, and I do feel really bad for those who have suffered. But everyone got back safe and we all feel bad for any loss of life.
As for the tyre debates, I think we all have to accept there will be differing opinions. I personally switch wheels (with summer and winter tyres) with the change of season in the UK - because I commute 110 miles round trip with work, and I have to try to make it in, although my employer will allow me to work from home in inclement weather. Ran a W203 Merc saloon from 2010, got winter wheel set for those; ran a W204 Merc AMG Coupe from 2012, got a winter wheel set for those; now running a F30 BMW M Sport 330d, got a winter wheel set for it too. Lets say its ingrained - my own safety, and other road users.
With the Boxing Day snow until now, I have seen some bad examples of driving with summer rubber - I am more fearful about others, than I am for my own driving, adjusted even with winter tyres. Such is life.
Are winter tyres better than summer for winter conditions, esp in Alps? Of course they are.
Are people who drive to the Alps on summer rubber asking for trouble - possibly, or most probably, depending on their attitude to risk, and their experience of driving in the Alps, and their skill levels. Some are good, some lack skill and knowledge.
Are people who drive to the Alps on summer rubber irresponsible, both to themselves, their families, and other road user? See above. Can't regulate for personal opinion esp when it comes to one's own abilities.
Is it sensible to have the right equipment for the right job? i.e. winter tyres, with chains, food, water, shovels, blankets in the boot when driving to the Alps? Sure....but again you can't regulate for personal opinion when it comes to one's own level of preparedness.....some will still be prepared to play tennis with a squash racket, and make do, some will use a proper tennis racket when playing tennis.
What it boils down to is this - what will the person, or that family learn from their experience, and any near miss(es)? Will they be a better road user? Will they be a more prepared road user? Will they decide to use the right equipment for the right conditions next time they go on their road trip to the Alps to ski.....
That, my friends, is the 6 million dollar question.....
(Legal regulation is probably the only way to ensure there is a level playing field in situations regarding equipment like tyres and snowchains; also the main contributing factor is the sheer volume of traffic on that Saturday....)
Be safe everyone! Enjoy your skiing!
 [/i]
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....nice summary. Just to finish, I now have a set of winter tires, fitted this morning. They didn't even scratch my new wheels!
Wish me luck on my first winter road trip to the alps. And someone sort that bloody rain forecast out please!
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| andy from embsay wrote: |
| Noooo...because there was packed snow on the road to my house.... I was pointing it's perfectly possible to survive the icy wastes of the UK for several decades without [winter tyres] |
Apart from, perhaps, Mooney058, I don't think anyone is saying - or even suggesting - that it's impossible to travel about the UK quite safely on summer tyres tyres (apart from those few occasions when there's lying snow). So, your claims to have "got to work every day" are nothing to write home about.
However, there's no doubt that winter tyres are advantageous for perhaps 40% of the year, even in the lower, flatter, less-snow prone parts of the UK.
My point was that by saying there was 'packed snow in the Dales for 3 weeks' you inferred the conditions in which you drove you Jag were quite severe whereas, in fact, you had to cope with snow "on the road to my house". Still hugely impressive, of course.
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Not even remotely impressive, matey - I'm a long way from being a competent driver in winter conditions (apart from anything else I don't do it very often), and I have no doubt that there is a benefit to winter tyres - but the benefit of them to me where I live is pretty marginal, given the cost of changing them over and storage each year (as I posted earlier I'd have to pay to have them stored somewhere) and despite living in a rural area and commuting over the pennines for ten years, driving on summer tyres year round doesn't seem to have affected my ability to get places.
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Ok for my part. If I lived in the UK and only came to the Alps once a year I would run summer tires and stick chains on if it snowed when I started to climb at a chain area.
As I live in the Alps I stick snow tires on from November to early May but I always have chains in the boot just in case. Snow tires tend to be okay on snow but not on ice or polished snow (aka ice).
If the conditions are really bad - like 4x4 stuck with wheels spinning bad - and I really have to get somewhere, I take the missus' 2 wheel drive Panda.
I generally try to avoid driving in icy conditions or heavy snow.
Most locals don't bother with snow tires unless they go to the mountain a lot.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I’ve run winter tyres for the last 11 years and during that time I’ve averaged two trips to the Alps a year. Always had them on a spare set of rims. Often swapped them myself but sometimes timed my car services to get them swapped for me. I have storage space (which I accept others might not) and can change all four corners in 45 minutes. They make the summer tyres last longer. For at least part of that period the winter tyres were cheaper than the summer ones. Rims came from ebay at <£100 for four
My experience has been that apart from a bit of noise I don’t notice any difference at all when I switch. That said I try very hard to avoid braking to the limits of adhesion and as far as cornering goes my rallying days are behind me.
When there is snow on the road the difference is huge. I can start, stop, turn etc etc when others can’t. Our apartment in Chatel has a particularly steep entrance from a 5mph start and I have never needed chains to get up it which I did on summer tyres.
I agree that on ice it is very difficult with any tyre.
I would swap them seasonally even if not travelling to the Alps. They were invaluable in Leicestershire last weekend when visiting my brother. Side roads were treacherous and I had no problems at all.
My wife’s Panda only does about 5,000 miles a year so it has winter tyres fitted all year round. After 4-5 years they will be worn out and I’ll buy some new ones.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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The only time I've felt frightened driving to the Alps (or at all for the last twenty years) was when I fitted winter tyres (Vrads) to the Landrover and Aquaplaned on the motorway in heaveish rain. I'm now very relieved to be driving back on standard Pirellis and looking forward to February- especially now the snow is back! Happy New Year to all.
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I have certainly seen some sights this past week - and only today saw a Brit Freelander with chains on!!
Did one hell of a lot of driving yesterday (9.5hrs) in the mountain and whilst coming back from Turin I clocked a sign saying it was obligatory to have snow tyres on the Frejus tunnel autoroute from Nov to end of April - so take note any of you using the Frejus !!!
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You know it makes sense.
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@Weathercam, Why is it strange to see a British Freelander with chains on?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Weathercam, that has changed, it used to be that winter equipment was obligatory which also meant chains.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@emwmarine, it was pretty wet on the roads this morning as we went back to GVA
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I am going to Turin tomorrow. I do have winter tyres but those signs on the Italian motorways in the north are for having chains too. Unless it's changed from last year winter tyres are not compulsory. Will check tomorrow. Drove down to albertville tonight to pick up son after his week cooking in courchevel. Very icy roads after one of the most miserable days imaginable. A lot of rain, some sleet, chilly breeze, fog. But stunning clear sky and full moon now made this evening's drive a pleasure.
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@pam w, winter tyres compulsory on Aoste motorways 15.10 - 15.4. But never seen any checks.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@under a new name, I was coming through Aosta a couple of years back at the end of an extended summer road trip in Italy and was wary that the winter tyres period has kicked in, I did enquire and was told they only enforce it when conditions demand. What they do enforce, strictly is the carrying of registration documents for the car, if you are stopped in a spot check and don't have them you will be turned back or worse.
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@pam w, as I mentioned digital signs on overhead gantries and side of road had signage that winter tyres were obligatory for the Frejus Turin autoroute, though might have missed the chains bit. But don't think they'll be checking based on current conditions.
Please advise how snow"s looking Val Frejus side as we're currently hatching a plan to go there Tues and Wed as currently showing best snow cover in French Alps and as at New Years eve when I drove through a couple if times was not wind affected. But for sure that's probably changed and we need to find more detail on that.
If you can make time park up at airport and take bus into Turin center. Was stunningly superb !
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Winters tyres worst crime is that have turned 'tyres' into summer tyres..
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@CANV CANVINGTON, I agree.
One spin off from the German law change requiring better tyres in winter is the recent developments in all season tyres that perform really well in the winter. I'll be looking at some of those when I come to take off my "summers" next time and flog my winter wheels.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Just a followup to the main subject of this thread. The Mayors and towns who offered overnight accomodation are furious with the prefect. They feel that the organisation and traffic control was a disaster and are worried that it will reflect badly on the department already suffering from bad publicity in the UK due to the various ski leader court cases and the drop in Easter European visitors.
Two big criticisms. Mayors were not informed in advance that they would provide emergency accomodation. Some only found out when people arrived at the town hall asking for help. This didn't give them time to organise beds, heating and food and although they took people in it was not a good experience. Many tales of locals providing beds for the night to stricken travellers - a true dunkirk spirit. They feel the authorities dithered in the face of traffic chaos and should have got organized much earlier in the day. The mayors apologise to people for the quality of the welcome.
Second complaint, mayors in ski resorts not informed of the traffic chaos below. They feel they could have done more to control and organise traffic leaving resort in the morning if the prefect had taken action earlier and kept them updated. Impossible to contact the prefecture for mayors to get advice.
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@Weathercam, my destination in TURIN is the big central station. Am now illegally parked, like most of those around me, nearby. Son has gone off to meet his Italian ex girlfriend and their son. The Italian side of the tunnel was warm and dry. No snow anywhere near road level, in contrast to bit heaps on the side of the road into the tunnel on the french side. But maybe it's always like that. Always has been the few times I have done that drive in winter.driving in Turin was surprisingly easy. No nutters, huge wide roads, light traffic. Let's hope we get out before the rush hour.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@davidof, All good points but what has been the response?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@pam w, as it is holiday in Turin tomorrow you might be lucky as people may have taken today off.
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We rocked up, as planned, on the Autoroute de la Maurienne on Sunday afternoon. Big (I mean kilometers) of queues trying to get off at St Jean and then tyhe whole motorway came to a halt soon after. We took a long rest stop in the Aire de Julien Montdenis until it started to move again. Crawled all the way to the St Michel turn off where they saw our roofbox and tried to wave us past until we said we were actually stopping in the town. I assume that the traffic going up the Col du Telegraph had to go on to the next junction and then back again. We took ages to queue thru the town to Le Marintan where our chalet was unusable because the water had frozen. Fortunately, they had spare accomm in a staff appartment. They said that 15,000 cars were stranded and all the schools and sports halls had been opened up to provide sleeping space. We got away lightly!
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You know it makes sense.
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@davidof..........yes the organisation of the response to the boxing night snow was totally inadequate.
It was debated on here in depth on a thread i started, so surely those in power should have had some insight to the forecast and know the volume of traffic users on that day...its the same pretty much every NY changeover Saturday.
Seems the same inadequate French planning was very much evident at Eurotunnel on Saturday....3 hour delay to check in.........we only about 30 mins delay yesterday...........and had a text from Eurotunnel saying it was UK customs fault. I showed the customs officer the text and he went mental.......about 30 mins later a text appeared from eurotunnel apologising for the check in delays....LOL
someone at eurotunnel is probably sitting on a smacked back bottom today!!!!!!!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@davidof, The conditions were not unexpected. I drove from Grenoble to Les Arcs on the Friday night and there were lots of matrix displays warning of snow and chaos on the roads. Has there been any explanation from the prefecture as to why this was the only action taken
We set off from Les Arcs to goto to Tignes Saturday night and got as far as the junction to 1800 before my nephew phoned to say the road to Tignes was closed and could they all spend the night in our apartment in 1600.
One of the party arrived at lunch time to Geneva airport went to book a coach to Les Arcs only to be told they were all cancelled. She just got on the train. Apparently the train service was running more or less on schedule.
Sunday lunch time some of the party got the bus from Bourg to Tignes while we drove. Snow chains were only needed for the first km after that a gentle but steady drive got us parked up in Tignes. And that was with standard wide wheels and tyres. Got to Tignes just as a UK tour operator coach arrived. They looked tired and the poor reps absolutely shot.
No problem driving back to Bourg and up again Monday night.
@pam w, I saw the Italian Job it didn't look as easy as you describe driving around Turin.
My view is - you come to the mountains to ski and on occaisions it snows. Sometimes travel is difficult. Try to stay warm and make the best of it. If you lose a day's skiing then it is sad but there are worse things happeneing in the world.
I think the general level of moaning would be much higher if it never snowed.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@stefoy4me, they always seem to blame UK customs, but to be honest, I haven't seen anything that would suggest otherwise. There are usually plenty of check-in booths open, but all funnelling into a small number of UK border agency desks.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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2 years ago, in perfectly normal weather (i.e. Now snow) it took us 7 hours from Geneva to Val d'Isere. Without debating why we chose to drive on the busiest day of the year, when we had no need to... If that's the journey just when it's a wee bit busy, it's not going to take a great deal to cause chaos.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@stefoy4me, Early on Sunday morning we were were only delayed an hour at the tunnel crossing. This time they said it was due to the backlog caused by an earlier cancellation. In my experience one or two hours delay is the norm so I always put that in my schedule.
Do Eurotunnel inform the UK border police of expected traffic volumes so that sufficient officers are put on duty like the airports do?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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on boxing day night, once we were through Moutiers it was a relatively clear but slow run to BSM and then up to Ste Foy. There was a policeman standing in the road at the final roundabout for the road up to Val/Tignes/SteF, but they didn t stop us we just drove past and up.
The road was snow covered and not undrivable............the 4x4 Touraeg coped fine without chains or winter tyres
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Hells Bells, My Ferry are trying to blame Passport control for us missing our Ferry on Sunday afternoon, but I was there and could see quite clearly that the traffic was backed up from the ferry check in booths, vehicles could not leave passport control because there was no where to go!
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johnE....you would think so but who knows.
Last night they were funnelling all cars off to the right before the check in booths to and overflow car park which was accessed by going back round under the approach to the booths and into a car park, where by the cards were lined up in rows of 25-30 a line, there were about 10-15 lines and growing when we were there at 4.30pm
Each line was then called through when the space appeared at check in. once checked in passport control was moving relatively quickly, but i think this may have been because the checking of passports was a quicker than usual glance...he didn t scan ours through a machine like they usually do
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Slight thread resurrection but what of the chances of another snowmaggeddon tonight and tomorrow?
I don't think it will be as busy as last time but with the amounts of snow being predicted there must be a chance of problems occurring again. We don't have anyone going into our apartment tomorrow so that is one less worry to have.
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Nah.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Is the coming weekend shaping up to be another snowmageddon experience?
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@intermediate, plenty of snow but traffic much lighter. And after the publicity surrounding the new year episode people might be better prepared. We've certainly had far more snow than fell at New Year, and it's not forecast to stop for a couple of days yet, so there will be some problems.
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FAQ
