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 Poster: A snowHead
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@rob@rar, And you can guarantee that they won't catch an edge and suddenly flip over? I'm not stating that you should ever bully anyone or take risks. I was just stating that I have seen times when a warning is appropriate. Like on a forest track when a group of teenage skiers were messing about with each other and taking little jumps off the side, but as a group they were holding people up. Saying 'excuse me' alerted them that there were people behind, they looked and moved over clearly indicating that they were cool with it.

OK, it's not a usual situation but as with most of life, an entrenched position that this is never right will on the odd 1% actually make life more dangerous.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@Scarpa, in that kind of scenario the skier behind has to take a judgment whether it is safe to pass or not. If they do attempt to pass and the skier in front decides to change their line and there is a collision then the skier behind is 100% responsible. I would take offence if someone shouted at me as they approached just in case they thought I might put in a bigger turn (which I would be perfectly entitled to do, but never would on a cat track because I respect my fellow slope users enough to ski predictably in such circumstances). How long would it take on a cat track to wait until there was space to pass under the circumstances you describe? Would it be measured in 10s of seconds, a minute or two perhaps? Is that really too long to wait, especially if the skier in front of competent and already travelling at a reasonable speed?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
bezthespaniard wrote:
I disagree with most of the posts on here about this.

They guy with the camera is skiing at a reasonable pace and tries to go right on the outside of the learners - the guy learning turns into him at the last second and clips him which takes him towards the 2nd learner.

No one is really to blame - I see this happen so many times when I am on the slopes. The gopro guy should shout out to say where he is going, that it what I do, but I am fed up of people saying you should be stopping when you come to people learning.

The ESF guy is in the wrong in a massive way but I do not think the guy with the video is doing anything wrong.



Do you still stand by this?
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bezthespaniard wrote:
Scarpa wrote:
It's the same cycling, on mountain bike trails/bridleways etc it is not considered good form to come up behind someone walking without letting them know you are there, otherwise you scare the hell out of them as you pass.

I think that in 'SOME' circumstances saying hello or just making a noise on flat tracks may be advisable, it does not negate your responsibility as the uphill skier in any way, but as said above, if on a narrow track no one is allowed to pass (how can you do that 100% safely if you are keeping your speed under control?) then everyone ends up poling.

I would not alert a novice, they have enough to concentrate on. A smooth looking skier who is playing about a bit then I may, just to let them know not to suddenly decide to jump into the forest or up a rise. OK, it's not very often I have ever done this, but I can see circumstances where it may be appropriate.


EXACTLY THIS


Unlike on the road, overtaking on slopes could be either on the left or the right. No surprise here ... If some idiot would be shouting "on/to the right/left" I would not have an idea whether he wants to go that way or he wants me to go that way.

Traffic rules are different to FIS rules for a reason ... If English are shouting left/right in French Alps, would Czech, Danish, Dutch, German would do that thing in their languages.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
A friend of mine, ex racer, recons it's best to approach as fast as possible, aim directly at the slow skier, at the very last second, go the other way to their course of direction. He never hit anyone. Didn't do the clicking thing either.
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@rob@rar, You are being an augmentative arse, you are in no way talking about the situation I just described. I was talking about a group of people blocking a track, being loud and not noticing that there were people slowing down behind them which I observed.

Carry on your argument with the original poster. I totally agree with what you are saying above, but you are sounding like you are just shouting your case and not listening anymore.

Out of here, chill folks.


Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Mon 22-12-14 22:23; edited 1 time in total
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Scarpa wrote:
@rob@rar, How about this scenario... skier A is making predictable turns on the left of a wide piste, using about a third of the piste. Skier B is slightly behind, on the right of the piste, again using about one third of the available width. As they become level skier A makes a swooping arc coming over to the right and there is a collision.

At the point of collision both skiers are adjacent to each other but in each others blind spots. Now either no skier should be allowed to pass in this situation, or perhaps a cheery 'Hello' may have alerted one of them.

I am just playing devils advocate here as I find the entrenchment of attitudes may be missing the point.


again, spot on.

If you say something verbally and the guy ahead becomes aware of you, there is less chance you collide. Maybe he wasn't going to hit you anyway but better to say something than now.

Additionally, if someone is about to swerve and hit you as you pass and doesn't hear you or understand you - then you are in the same position if you say hello or say nothing.

Better to say something than not.
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@Scarpa, apologies for not typing quick enough, I was actually replying to your earlier post when you offered a particular scenario.

Also, aapologies for not being chilled enough.
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bez, in the original vid the filmer is 100% in the wrong. If the person may swerve then don't pass so close.
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I've no problem in calling out I'm there in most languages and do so if the situation merits it on a long cat track when glide can be a major factor. It's a far cry from bellowing "Out of my way!" in a Brian Blessed voice at beginners although that does give me an idea.
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rob@rar wrote:
@Scarpa, apologies for not typing quick enough, I was actually replying to your earlier post when you offered a particular scenario.

Also, aapologies for not being chilled enough.



LOL, no worries, I am the same, I enjoy getting the bit between my teeth. I think we are mostly all singing from the same hymn sheet, well most of us Wink
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rob@rar wrote:
Scarpa wrote:
@rob@rar, When I've seen it on long schusses the uphill person may call while slowing, if the downhill skier obviously notices and makes way then they go past, if not then the person stays behind. I don't think he's talking about the arrogant idiots who shout just before they pass.


Is it really so difficult to regulate your speed so that you pass when there is enough space to do so? When I'm passing people on a cat track I will time it so I pass on the outside of their turn, wen they are turning to the right I will pass on their left. Makes it much easier to ensure I have the space to pass them. I'll regulate my speed so that I reach them at the right time to pass them to the outside of their turn. If there's no space to do that I'll slow down, as it did on several times today. Sure, it was a pain, but who am I to bully slower skiers out of the way?


Absolutely, just like driving on the motorway, look ahead, plan & react...how difficult can it be really? Razz
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Scarpa wrote:
@rob@rar, You are being an augmentative arse, you are in no way talking about the situation I just described. I was talking about a group of people blocking a track, being loud and not noticing that there were people slowing down behind them which I observed.

Carry on your argument with the original poster. I totally agree with what you are saying above, but you are sounding like you are just shouting your case and not listening anymore.

Out of here, chill folks.


Scarpa has it spot on Rob.


Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much on Mon 22-12-14 22:30; edited 1 time in total
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Especially after a few glasses of fizz I tend to start throwing in all sorts of things, hey, it keeps me questioning and focusing on skiing. If we were not all discussing this here we would not be caring.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@bezthespaniard, Rob is actually extremely knowledgeable, I only called him an arse because I know him Toofy Grin Plus I'm an argumentative arse late at night on here too.
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 Poster: A snowHead
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Scarpa wrote:
@bezthespaniard, Rob is actually extremely knowledgeable, I only called him an arse because I know him Toofy Grin Plus I'm an argumentative arse late at night on here too.
And it was taken in that spirit wink
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He may be knowledgeable but he is saying you should never communicate as you pass. I am saying, that sometimes saying something is a (sometimes) useful thing to do. Not always, but sometimes.

Feels like Rob is just on the wind up
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bezthespaniard wrote:
Scarpa has it spot on Rob.
On this occasion he and I will just have to disagree, with the greatest of respect.
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bezthespaniard wrote:
He may be knowledgeable but he is saying you should never communicate as you pass. I am saying, that sometimes saying something is a (sometimes) useful thing to do. Not always, but sometimes.

Feels like Rob is just on the wind up



Rob's on the wind up??????????????????? Shocked
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bezthespaniard wrote:
He may be knowledgeable but he is saying you should never communicate as you pass.
A cheery hello is just fine Happy What I'm saying is that you shouldn't need to give directions to the person in front.
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thecramps wrote:
bezthespaniard wrote:
I disagree with most of the posts on here about this.

They guy with the camera is skiing at a reasonable pace and tries to go right on the outside of the learners - the guy learning turns into him at the last second and clips him which takes him towards the 2nd learner.

No one is really to blame - I see this happen so many times when I am on the slopes. The gopro guy should shout out to say where he is going, that it what I do, but I am fed up of people saying you should be stopping when you come to people learning.

The ESF guy is in the wrong in a massive way but I do not think the guy with the video is doing anything wrong.



Do you still stand by this?


I think you guys are really over reacting to his actions. He is in control and tries to overtake sensibly.

he tries to read which way to go and chooses left (right would be better but left should still be ok).

He controls himself after the hit and no one is hurt - until the ESF guy hits him (never acceptable)

Am i the only one who tries to always be aware of those uphill from me when I turn near the edge of a piste?
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thecramps wrote:
bezthespaniard wrote:
I disagree with most of the posts on here about this.

They guy with the camera is skiing at a reasonable pace and tries to go right on the outside of the learners - the guy learning turns into him at the last second and clips him which takes him towards the 2nd learner.

No one is really to blame - I see this happen so many times when I am on the slopes. The gopro guy should shout out to say where he is going, that it what I do, but I am fed up of people saying you should be stopping when you come to people learning.

The ESF guy is in the wrong in a massive way but I do not think the guy with the video is doing anything wrong.



Do you still stand by this?


So? Do you?
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rob@rar wrote:
A cheery hello is just fine Happy


In which language? wink
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@rob@rar, I would say that the way most (prob 90%) of people use communication is in the way that can be considered bullying or inconsiderate to other skiers. I am just trying to say that I have come across situations where I considered it appropriate. And not shouting left or right, just a hello to let people know that there is someone else there. If that person then obviously looks and gestures someone past then it can resolve an issue. I also will shout if I see someone jumping out of the trees onto a piste without looking... I see that a lot with youngsters and hopefully they will gain a bit more common sense.
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rob@rar wrote:
bezthespaniard wrote:
He may be knowledgeable but he is saying you should never communicate as you pass.
A cheery hello is just fine Happy What I'm saying is that you shouldn't need to give directions to the person in front.


Then we finally agreed on something. A polite hello or thanks is sometimes useful. Directions can be unhelpful I will now agree to.

We should be in politics Wink
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@stuarth, Klingon.
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Scarpa wrote:
@rob@rar, I would say that the way most (prob 90%) of people use communication is in the way that can be considered bullying or inconsiderate to other skiers. I am just trying to say that I have come across situations where I considered it appropriate. And not shouting left or right, just a hello to let people know that there is someone else there. If that person then obviously looks and gestures someone past then it can resolve an issue. I also will shout if I see someone jumping out of the trees onto a piste without looking... I see that a lot with youngsters and hopefully they will gain a bit more common sense.


Very sensible post
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@bezthespaniard, He does NOT overtake sensibly, it's an ever narrowing funnel. He makes a terrible choice. His fault. Full stop.


I also agree with samerburgsue, he didn't hit him, he attempted to stop him. Totally acceptable.
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You know it makes sense.
thecramps wrote:
@bezthespaniard, He does NOT overtake sensibly, it's an ever narrowing funnel. He makes a terrible choice. His fault. Full stop.


I also agree with samerburgsue, he didn't hit him, he attempted to stop him. Totally acceptable.



Neither of us were there so we can't make those judgements.

Why attempt to stop him? that could cause serious injury
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Well, I have to say that I'm with @thecramps, on this call. He sees a line of beginners with an instructor, he makes a terrible choice, hits two and still does not attempt to stop.
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@bezthespaniard, err, it's on film?


And hitting people can't?


You are Stanton and I claim my £5.

Madeye-Smiley
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shouldn't punch or stop him
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@bezthespaniard, Why not stop him?
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Scarpa wrote:
Well, I have to say that I'm with @thecramps, on this call.



I bet that hurt Laughing Laughing Laughing
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@thecramps, You should have used more lube Shocked
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@Scarpa, Laughing Laughing Laughing


Emma's are still tingling
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thecramps wrote:
@bezthespaniard, Why not stop him?


You should never attempt to physically stop a fast moving skier as it is dangerous and not your place to do it. If the incident needs reporting and the skier is leaving, shout at them. If they leave, either follow them or report them.

In the video, it is clearly a punch. It bends at the elbow and releases like a spring into the guy. No grabbing motion - it is absolutely a punch or forceful shove. Both are unacceptable and potentially dangerous. Not to mention legally culpable if they cause injury from a fall.

I have gone over the video a few more times, pausing and slowing down. They guy approaches the group and is blocked from overtaking on the right which I think is his preferred choice. If you look, at 11 seconds someone blocks him from going right.

At 4 seconds he slows and carefully passes the first learner.
At 7 seconds he should be making a decision to slow ready for overtaking but be prepared to stop.
At 8 seconds he slows down.
At 9 seconds it seems like passing on the left is the best option but may change.
At 10 seconds an unseen pole in the piste appears, blocking any turn right. At this point, a wide move right would be suitable but the pole is small and stops this.
At 11 seconds I would probably have stopped because the choices are narrowing. It isn't safe to pass BUT going wide left is still a risky option.
at 13 seconds the beginner goes further left than before but within the margin of probability.
NOTE THE ESF INSTRUCTOR IS NOT LOOKING
At 15 seconds it is clear the beginner falls. The Go Pro guy is regaining control.
At 16 seconds he does well to avoid a crash.
at 19 seconds the ESF guy clearly punches him.


I actually think the pole causes the issue here as it changed what was available to the Go Pro guy. He should, however have been ready to stop and was at fault for this.

HOWEVER the punch was not acceptable.
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bezthespaniard wrote:
thecramps wrote:
@bezthespaniard, Why not stop him?




HOWEVER the punch was not acceptable.


I totally agree, it was rubbish.
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Just because the pole wasn't in the vid he should have seen it. If he didn't, IT WAS HIS FAULT.


So at the point that you would of stopped, he didn't, you still think he's ok?


And that was NOT a punch. This is a punch


http://youtube.com/v/z5rUihOSdzo#t=40


Madeye-Smiley
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