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What a tool!

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Are you aware of the piste i am talking about. Balme Blue @ Le Tour.

If your last post is correct, then everyone (thousands a day) are wrong. What you and I are disagreeing about is the definition of passing safely.

I can't understand what you define as safely? What conditions need to be in place to get past someone in your version?
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@bezthespaniard, no, never skied in Chamonix. My definition of "passing safely" is allowing enough room so that you don't need to shout a warning or require in some other way the skier in front of you to change their behaviour. And not colliding with them, obviously. Is that a difficult definition to understand?
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@bezthespaniard, I still think you are just trolling or I hope so. Either that you have no self awareness of what you've written. I really don't care what you write but I do hope in reality you don't behave how you have written. Otherwise you need to do yourself and others a favour and go back to ski school and learn the FIS rules for your sake and others. Otherwise how many ski instructors and experienced skiers need to tell you are wrong before you are big enough to grasp the point?
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bezthespaniard wrote:
Are you aware of the piste i am talking about. Balme Blue @ Le Tour.



I am very aware of that piste and have never had to click my poles or say anything when passing others.

I have though had to go into a snowplough or even stop on occasion as it wasn't safe to pass at the time.

I am afraid, as well meaning as you feel you might be, that you are wrong in assuming that this should be the done thing when passing others (I did see one not so brilliant gaper doing this today on GM on the run to Plan Joran restaurant which only served to frighten the person in front of them into veering to the right and stopping abruptly before they could career off the edge)


Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Mon 22-12-14 21:27; edited 1 time in total
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
The situation I'm talking about is on a slope about 6 foot wide. You can never pass far away enough away to avoid the unexpected so in your version, you can never pass anyone even though everyone is cruising at different speeds.

People in this slope are not turning, everyone is going straight as it is very flat. If you stop, you have to walk from then on for about 15 mins. Everyone cruises past each other and most people say something as they pass you.

I see nothing wrong.
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bezthespaniard wrote:
I see nothing wrong.
Well perhaps take some advice from this thread if you can't see it yourself? That or take some Patience Pills.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
I genuinely think that you guys are misunderstanding what my point is...

I agree with you, that on steep slopes, you should have patience and wait until a safe passing point is there.

However, on flat blue 'roads' that require no turning then i see no reason why you can't pass people and give a small warning as you pass or at least say thanks.

Experienced instructors in Cham agree, most skiers on the slope do it and it is common sense.

Shouting at someone because you want them to move as you speed past is dangerous.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
None so blind as those that won't see.

@bezthespaniard, I'm talking about flat blue 'roads'. I've never seen anyone shout a verbal warning on a regular piste as they wanted to pass, only on cat tracks.
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all that pole clicking really gets on my chicken fillets.

Better to just STFU and/or stick one on 'em like Pierre does in the video
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@bezthespaniard, how long have you been skiing? Which resorts?
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Then if you are also talking about flat roads we will not agree.

Basic politeness imho.

I also recommend you don't head to Cham any time soon or you will only get annoyed at everyone being polite to one another.

The next time someone comes out of nowhere to pass close by with no verbal warning i will applaud their perfect piste etiquette
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
mooney058 wrote:
@bezthespaniard, how long have you been skiing? Which resorts?


18 years and I have been to Cham, Val D, Tignes, La Plagne, couple of places in Austria and The USA.

I'm so shocked at this thread because it is coming across that most people believe in skiing in silence. We need more politeness not less.
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
bezthespaniard wrote:
Then if you are also talking about flat roads we will not agree.
If this was simply a matter of my opinion v. your opinion I wouldn't have any interest in continuing the discussion. But it's not my opinion, it is the FIS rules of conduct that you are disagreeing with. I really don't care whether the skiers in "Cham" do it all the time or not (NB Touchguru's comment above), it's still wrong.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@bezthespaniard, no one is agreeing with you. At which point will you grasp you are wrong?
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
rob@rar wrote:
bezthespaniard wrote:
Then if you are also talking about flat roads we will not agree.
If this was simply a matter of my opinion v. your opinion I wouldn't have any interest in continuing the discussion. But it's not my opinion, it is the FIS rules of conduct that you are disagreeing with. I really don't care whether the skiers in "Cham" do it all the time or not (NB Touchguru's comment above), it's still wrong.


Just reread them and nowhere does it say that you shouldn't give a verbal warning.

I am disagreeing with your opinion that is just barmy
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
bezthespaniard wrote:
Just reread them and nowhere does it say that you shouldn't give a verbal warning.
FIS Rules 1, 2, 3 and 4 all apply. Would you like me to explain them to you?
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
bezthespaniard wrote:
rob@rar wrote:
bezthespaniard wrote:
So you think I should never overtake someone else just in case they lose control?


I think you should leave enough room for the skier in front to do something unexpected. It's what I did today, it's what I try to do whenever I want to pass somebody on a cat track.

If somebody does something unexpected as you pass them and bump in to you IT IS YOU WHO ARE IN THE WRONG. It's really very simple.


I disagree again.

A. I passed a long way from the guy that hit me
B. I was already past him
C. He lost control and went a significant distance out of his way to hit me
D. I couldn't react because he was now behind me


So the slower skier that you had just passed suddenly accelerated and travelled a significant distance to hit you from behind? Shocked Laughing
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
TTT wrote:
@bezthespaniard, no one is agreeing with you. At which point will you grasp you are wrong?


Pot kettle
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@kesone1, Laughing Laughing Laughing
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Ok, I can't say quiet any longer. The up hill skier is in the wrong, end of story just like a rear end impact when driving.

Last year I was taken out by an uphill skier on a red run in vallandry, i am best described as a nervy intermediate, on a lesson working well within my abilities. Slowed down as coming into resort and played dodge the signage, he thought I was going to go one way and I went the other, bang, that was both of us skidding down a run, skis and poles everywhere. Luckily the only damage was a pole, however he tried to blame me as I changed direction, it was at this time I learnt that my esf is very good at swearing in English as it was another Brit involved. The story could have been very different.
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Cat track etiquette seens different in the USA When I skied there (in various areas in Tahoe) it seemed common place for overtaking skiers to shout "on your left (right)" to warn the downhill skier. Obviously the downhill skier had no obligation to take any notice, but most did and made room. It all seemed very sociable and friendly.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
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hyperkub wrote:
Obviously the downhill skier had no obligation to take any notice, but most did and made room.
What happened when the downhill skier didn;t take any notice, or couldn't take any notice, or perhaps could't understand the warning because of language differences? Guaranteed collision? Sudden avoidance by the uphill skier?
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Ok, so I just emailed a friend of mine to sense check my views on this.

Antoine is an instructor in the Alps with over 30 years experience and not only is the most incredible skier I have ever seen but also very highly regarded.
I asked him his opinion on the matter and to look at the thread to see if I was being unreasonable or unclear.

His response is below:

"Ha - what a read! What have you got into now?!

Firstly, you should not shout at a downhill skier especially not to get them to adjust their trajectory, speed or anything else for that matter. It can be dangerous and rude for an uphill skier to vocalise his request for others to pay him attention or consider him as they ski. The uphill skier should assess the situation and only overtake when it is safe to do so, in full control.
This is your view too, no? Some of the other posters are getting agitated about this but are misunderstanding your position. It seems you all agree on this point.

The issue of 'roads' as you put it, it different though. Over here, a few of us are teaching skiers to be more polite and considered towards others when on tight, narrow transition pistes. Especially Maison Balme at Le Tour which you mentioned. We encourage people to alert others to their position and say thank you when they pass. It is clearly working because there are less issues at that end of the valley and a better atmosphere.

I see no contradiction to FIS in this. Some people are maintaining that it is contradictory to the rules but this is certainly not the case. If you shout out to others on a more challenging slope, as my example earlier, this is a lack of respect and ignores rule 4 as well. On transition pistes, with a gentle pace and low gradient, then I think it is the right thing to do if you alert others to your intention to pass. It also matches well with Rule 1.

A simple 'A droit' would be useful and a 'merci' would also be advised. Again, we over here are trying to raise the standards and politeness of skiing in general.

Too many instructors, I am sorry to say this but English in particular, are very rude on the piste. It is a growing problem here but is the exception, not the rule. Perhaps they are keeping to the regulations a little to strictly or interpreting them in their own rigid way... they would do better to allow for old fashioned good manners to prevail! It used to be the French but only at certain unnamed schools... Wink

One last point - FIS Rule 4. No skier would ever pass another if this rule was enforced to the letter. There is no circumstance when it is 100% guaranteed that you could avoid an unexpected movement by the downhill skier. You can minimise the risk but never ensure that you can avoid all eventualities. Especially on more narrow slopes, skiers will be passing each other within a close proximity of one another - in these tight instances all parties should remain in control, at a reasonable speed and should be communicating with others on the slope.

It is common sense.

Ciao.
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@rob@rar, When I've seen it on long schusses the uphill person may call while slowing, if the downhill skier obviously notices and makes way then they go past, if not then the person stays behind. I don't think he's talking about the arrogant idiots who shout just before they pass.
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hyperkub wrote:
Cat track etiquette seens different in the USA When I skied there (in various areas in Tahoe) it seemed common place for overtaking skiers to shout "on your left (right)" to warn the downhill skier. Obviously the downhill skier had no obligation to take any notice, but most did and made room. It all seemed very sociable and friendly.


Exactly this!!! Spot on Smile
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 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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rob@rar wrote:
hyperkub wrote:
Obviously the downhill skier had no obligation to take any notice, but most did and made room.
What happened when the downhill skier didn;t take any notice, or couldn't take any notice, or perhaps could't understand the warning because of language differences? Guaranteed collision? Sudden avoidance by the uphill skier?


I am not trying to wind you up, but this post is an example of how pedantic you are being. Communication means people are more aware of their surroundings which is a benefit, not a problem
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Scarpa wrote:
@rob@rar, When I've seen it on long schusses the uphill person may call while slowing, if the downhill skier obviously notices and makes way then they go past, if not then the person stays behind. I don't think he's talking about the arrogant idiots who shout just before they pass.


A good example. We are not talking about those who shout 'im coming through on the left' and just go for it.

We are talking about people who are being careful and are keen to avoid any accidents. If it isn't safe - stay behind!
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Whether you learnt to ski at 3 or 30, we were all rubbish once. Novice skiers are unpredictable, trying to concentrate on a lot of things at once. Also, there will always be people negotiating blacks for the first time, and while more experienced, they may still be less predictable.


But heres the thing, they paid there bucks same as you so they have every right to be there.


@rob@rar, +1 everything you said
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
bezthespaniard wrote:
Firstly, you should not shout at a downhill skier especially not to get them to adjust their trajectory, speed or anything else for that matter.
There he speaks sense, not so much the rest of his response. Where do you draw the line between abiding by FIS rules and ignoring them? A sign at the top of each piste saying whether you can ignore or enforce FIS rules? We might also need a sign which specifies which language is acceptable for shouted warnings? Courtesy and respect for other slope users, yes entirely agree. The FIS code is a good basis for that, it's just a shame that some skiers, instructors or not, ignore it.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@kesone1, v predictable. wink I think you will find some people are agreeing with me and they are called judges, lawyers and the EU. You are indeed right that the Daily Fail and Xenophobes don't agree with me but anyone with a brain, morals and an understanding of the law does. This guy thinks he know better than FIS and ski instructors. I don't think I know the law better than judges. That is the difference. You will have to do better than that, a lot better;-)
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Happy


Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Mon 22-12-14 23:00; edited 1 time in total
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@bezthespaniard, What do you do when people can't hear you because of wind noise, earmuffs or if they are listening to music?
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
bezthespaniard wrote:
Communication means people are more aware of their surroundings which is a benefit, not a problem
But what happens if they can't communicate? Maybe they are nervous and so focused on what is in front of them they have no awareness of what's behind them. Or much more common in Europe, they speak a different language. I have to confess if someone shouted a droit to me I'd have t use Google Language, and even then I'd be unsure if the instruction was "coming through on my left" or "move to your left". What's wrong with passing when you have the space to do so without need to shout at the skier below you. It's such a simple thing!!
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It's the same cycling, on mountain bike trails/bridleways etc it is not considered good form to come up behind someone walking without letting them know you are there, otherwise you scare the hell out of them as you pass.

I think that in 'SOME' circumstances saying hello or just making a noise on flat tracks may be advisable, it does not negate your responsibility as the uphill skier in any way, but as said above, if on a narrow track no one is allowed to pass (how can you do that 100% safely if you are keeping your speed under control?) then everyone ends up poling.

I would not alert a novice, they have enough to concentrate on. A smooth looking skier who is playing about a bit then I may, just to let them know not to suddenly decide to jump into the forest or up a rise. OK, it's not very often I have ever done this, but I can see circumstances where it may be appropriate.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Scarpa wrote:
@rob@rar, When I've seen it on long schusses the uphill person may call while slowing, if the downhill skier obviously notices and makes way then they go past, if not then the person stays behind. I don't think he's talking about the arrogant idiots who shout just before they pass.


Is it really so difficult to regulate your speed so that you pass when there is enough space to do so? When I'm passing people on a cat track I will time it so I pass on the outside of their turn, wen they are turning to the right I will pass on their left. Makes it much easier to ensure I have the space to pass them. I'll regulate my speed so that I reach them at the right time to pass them to the outside of their turn. If there's no space to do that I'll slow down, as it did on several times today. Sure, it was a pain, but who am I to bully slower skiers out of the way?
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I'm not being judgemental, I'm just sharing an experience. When I was skiing in the USA it seemed common on cat tracks for an overtaking skier to shout a warning, often acknowledged by a wave by the downhill skier. Right or wrong, that's how business is done there.
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@bezthespaniard, you are a troll, and Antoine's english is very good, best regards to him! wink
Unlike US how many nations ski in FR resorts?
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@rob@rar, How about this scenario... skier A is making predictable turns on the left of a wide piste, using about a third of the piste. Skier B is slightly behind, on the right of the piste, again using about one third of the available width. As they become level skier A makes a swooping arc coming over to the right and there is a collision.

At the point of collision both skiers are adjacent to each other but in each others blind spots. Now either no skier should be allowed to pass in this situation, or perhaps a cheery 'Hello' may have alerted one of them.

I am just playing devils advocate here as I find the entrenchment of attitudes may be missing the point.
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Scarpa wrote:
It's the same cycling, on mountain bike trails/bridleways etc it is not considered good form to come up behind someone walking without letting them know you are there, otherwise you scare the hell out of them as you pass.

I think that in 'SOME' circumstances saying hello or just making a noise on flat tracks may be advisable, it does not negate your responsibility as the uphill skier in any way, but as said above, if on a narrow track no one is allowed to pass (how can you do that 100% safely if you are keeping your speed under control?) then everyone ends up poling.

I would not alert a novice, they have enough to concentrate on. A smooth looking skier who is playing about a bit then I may, just to let them know not to suddenly decide to jump into the forest or up a rise. OK, it's not very often I have ever done this, but I can see circumstances where it may be appropriate.


EXACTLY THIS
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One scenario I have problems being able to stop in good time is where some numpty decides to move laterally across a schuss where everyone else is schussing it. I know that technically speaking it's my fault if I clatter matey boy, but it peeves me a bit. Never actually taken anyone out doing this but have taken one for the team (with round of applause from passing skiers).
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