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Macho macho DIN... to the tune of . . ?

 Poster: A snowHead
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Masque, didn't mean to imply you are. For me skiing is improved by recovery rather than staying withthin the thresholds offered (and limited) by setting your bindings low.

Great thread...

Very Happy
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Isn't it analagous to playing football with your boots undone? You can kick the ball harder with your boots laced up. Pretty tenuous I know..........

I'm with parlor, recovery where skis might come makes me a better skier, although I also with Arno trying to balance the DIN vs injury. I'm 78kg and on between 8-9
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The other factor that need to be taken into account if you are accumulating data is of course aggresivity - Type1, 2 or 3 (on whatever scale you want to model that on).

Also......

I've seen many many many skis were the forward pressure of the binding system isn't set correctly - this will have a massive impact (pardon the pun) on the DIN release point.

Shocked
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veeeight, good point and another reason why people that don't know how to adjust bindings shouldn't do it! There are more adjustments than the DINs needed...
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paulhothersall,
Quote:
Quote:
Guess I must be doing something wrong. I weigh 90Kg and I ski 95% off piste no matter what the snow is like. My bindings are set to 6-7. Period. When I do ski on piste I ski fast. When necessary I do moguls too. Can't remember any situation in the last forty years where I've had a ski release before it's time had come. What am I not doing that other people are doing that requires them to endanger their ligaments in quite such an unnecessary manner?
racing

Can't argue with that. I take it you earn enough money at racing to make the risk worthwhile?
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[quote="Mike Lawrie"]paulhothersall, [quote]
Quote:

Can't argue with that. I take it you earn enough money at racing to make the risk worthwhile?


I make no money racing, but when I used to do it, I spent a relativly large amount of money for each "race run". My DINs were built up over the years as i gained in strength, weight, experiance and technique. I would start to raise them up when suffering a few pre releases, and after check settings and springs were still ok. I can still do a start which needs heels set at 12+, and ski in ruts in courses that shake of a ski off at more than this. I would describe my skiing as very agressive

Ironically I managed to suffer an injury this year to my knee (partial tear to my PCL) when I "only" had them set on 9, and they didn't release. I was doing some demo's whislt runnign a coaching session, showing skid recovery in GS turns. In order to initiate skids I was well stood up, and rotating the feet. I hit a death cookie just by my front binding, and hence it head effectivly no length for the moment on the binding. (Look P14 BTW, regarded as a very "safe" race binding). It did however on my knee.

Finally, good technique helps protect your knee!
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Just had the fright of my life today.

In morning training we were doing some high speed GS turns on some pretty steep terrain - really working the skis in late Phase2 of the turn, for max lateral leg action, lots of edging going on, when I hit the dreaded ice...... - going from lots of grip to no grip.

Well at around 50mph it spun me around, I suddenly found that I was doing a pirouette at 50mph, I was doing my best to just stay upright, and not catch an edge whisle being spun round, just when I though I got it all stabilised albeit going backwards, when the momentum just spins me around again......

So there I go, doing a total of 3 and a half 360's, desperately trying not to catch any edges whilst doing high speeed pirouettes, and all that was going through my mind was "ACL, ACL"......... "If I go down stay down, don't fight it...."

Somehow managed to stabilise everything again, going forwards this time. Bloody heart rate was right up there.

Anyroad. I reckon that the skis staying on in this instance prevented a pretty nasty incident. But if I had caught an edge I would have been a goner. A very high speed wipe out.

Tyrolia FF 17 binding on a iXRC1200 if anyone's interested! Good job it stayed on!
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I'm 5'9, 180lbs, not sure about boot length but size is 28.5 (BTW Parlor - 85kg is 187lbs not 175 - 2.2lbs:kg) and I ski on a DIN of 6. I do get pre-releases a bit, mainly in bumps. What I mean by a pre-release is that I suddenly realise that I've left a ski behind but I haven't fallen over and I didn't feel much of a pull as it went. It's annoying. I've always considered cranking the DIN up but always bottled it. I probably would do if I was on terrain where losing a ski could be disasterous.

All that said, if you are on-piste, not trying to hammer bumps or race, then I think Masque is probably right: lower is better.
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jedster wrote:
What I mean by a pre-release is that I suddenly realise that I've left a ski behind but I haven't fallen over and I didn't feel much of a pull as it went.


This is exactly what I mean by a pre-release, although off-piste I find that as soon as I am on only one ski, it sinks in and I go flying over the handle-bars Mad
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Arno,

going, goinng, goinnngg....gone..!!

Yep, thats a bu**er... Laughing
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CEM, I think it will not be long before we see electronically adjusted binding tension that will self adjust (within set parameters) to the type of skiing, speed and the forces being put through them . . . a bit like esp systems in cars.

Something else that's occurred to me is the differences in the speed and size of shock loading that short and/or stiff skis put into the binding interface as opposed to longer, softer flex skis. Does a longer ski transfer loadings at a slower and lower level as it absorbs more of the forces in its structure. A little like a larger car having a better crumple zone in a impact?
If the forces transferred by a short or stiff ski are greater than those of soft and long, should the settings be identical?

Or possibly we will get bindings that will need to have the length and type of ski included in the calculation . . . time for a maths thread? Skullie
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Quote:

Ummm . . . clarify please!


15 years, might actually be 20 years ago since the last time I was skiing

I went into the shop ordered what I wanted - the ski service guy was off sick so I fitted the bindings myself.

I wanted to go and play = mountain - ski lift - downhill with tumbling
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The better the skier that you are, the more likely that you will be skiing most of the time with the forces acting on your ski binding in a neutral balance, however as you push the envelope of the performance of your kit, both in terms of speed, and in terrain skiied, the forces during the rare times that you are off balance are going to be much more than they are when you're a beginner, therefore the danger of pre-releasing is higher, and so you DIN needs to be set higher.

Ideally your DIN should be as low as it is possible to be without prereleasing.
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Masque wrote:

paulhothersall, I have heard that it's normal to add a couple DIN points to your scale when using a dry slope because of the nature of the surface, I don't know . . . anyone any comment?


Way back when I was at sheffield we used to drop them one, there's no change in terrain or consistency to cause a 'grab' and mostly people are skiing far slower as there just insn't the space to build up speed - however for racing (or just generally athletic starts) you sometimes find you need to crank them up a bit to get a decent start on dry slope as its so sticky.... Nothing more embarrasing then setting off with gusto and leaving your skis behind Twisted Evil
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Don't think there's much argument here - if you are a newbie, casual or cruiser type skier then DIN should be as low as possible. If you've more expereience, ski more aggressively etc then you also should take responsibility for determining your own settings - at your own risk.
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jedster, Thanks! I weigh 12.5 stone what's that in kg & lbs? Wink For me, leaving a ski behind in a bump run would mean a very, very long run down on one ski. Anybody that has skied in Verbier will know what I mean when I say you don't want an easy pre-release on Tortin (not a massivly challenging run, but it's steep enough for a ski break to have no effect. OTOH on my new propehts there IS enough room for me to ski down like I was on a monoski!!! Wink

There are some very good points here at it seems everyone more or less agrees. There is a certain level that need to be reached before you start winding the DINs up. errrr. Just like the Type I, II & III skiers I guess Wink.
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Masque, consider whether stiffer boot flex means more shock loading on the binding, and whether being able to ski rough terrain at speed with a soft boot isn't the skill you're looking for.
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comprex, There are many variables here, not the least of which is the true skills level of the skier and their ability or willingness to be objective about them. The DIN chart alone can only be taken as a first step in what's being shown here to be a complex calculation in the balancing of ski security and skier safety. There does seem to be a developing consensus that skier skills development should have a higher priority than just cranking up the DIN to compensate for poor technique.

I think the "type I, II, III" definitions may be far too crude a measure.

As you say, boots also have a place in this calculation (dam, I wish my maths were better to bore the poop out of you lot with) High boot or low cut, soft flex or stiff, which transfers more stress to the knee joint (the usual injured party in this)? and do different boots load a binding with forces different enough to affect the choice of release setting?
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76kg 5ft10in boots are (AFAIR) mondo point 28.0 not sure what that is in sole length. My Diamir bindings are set to Din 8. Upto last year I'd never had them release (but I don't fall over very much). They did release last season when skiing the east lady off piste (at Cairngorm) in a mix of breakable crust and pockets of powder.
I also have a set of telemark bindings (Voile 3pin and cable) on a Voile release plate. They are set on 2 (but I'm not sure if that is DIN). They have only ever released once - the first time i used them doing no speed at all on the ptarmigan run when I caught the tip in a snow drift and fell. I've since used them a lot and as my telemarking aint too hot I fall over rather frequently (whenever I try telemarking on anything steep) and they haven't released yet.
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I haven't read all (hardly any) of this thread Toofy Grin so this may all have been said already, but it seems to me that for any given skier there is an acceptable envelope of binding settings. The bottom end would be the lowest usable setting, that at which, on your laziest day, your most aggressive movement would not cause a pre-release. I guess that's sort of equivalent to a -1 setting. The top end of this would be the highest setting at which a sudden force would still allow your boot to escape, where any higher a setting would instead cause your leg to break/wrench. This I guess is way above +3. Someone once told me how the DIN binding scale (actually it's not set by the DIN organisation anymore, but that's another story) was calculated. I don't know whether they used modelling or volunteers wink but IIRC it does actually have something to do with the force required to break/wrench or in some other way bug-up your leg. If someone found this out, we'd all know what our absolute top end is. I'd do it, only the info would only be of academic interest to me Very Happy snowHead
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slikedges, I'm sure we could find a volunteer or two to attempt to twist your leg off for the data wink
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I was hearing last week about one highly respected guide in the Chamonix valley who would indicate the severity of the descent that was about to be attempted by getting out his screwdriver and setting all the DINs of his party to the max. It would appear that on these occasions the consequences of a lost ski were significantly worse than a twisted/broken leg Shocked ! I guess that's one way to get you to concentrate on avoiding making mistakes Wink .
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Masque, I don't know, I try to make a useful contribution to your thread and you threaten me with violence Razz
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Quote:

by getting out his screwdriver and setting all the DINs of his party to the max.


Highly irresponsible behaviour, and completely open to litigation.

Bindings should *never* be wound up to the max - this is a "Lock Out" Situation - the binding will not release.
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GrahamN,

Can't quite see that.. you aren't going to get off the hill very quickly with either.... couldn't they use straps or something..?
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GrahamN, I don't know who would respect him, he's an idiot to do that! Please let us know his name, so we can avoid him.
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I suppose if you were skiing directly above a huge cliff or crevasse where a slide would result in certain death there may be a time when you would want to crank the bindings up all the way, but there can't be many guides taking groups of paying punters down truly extreme stuff, even in Chamonix. It sounds to me like a kind of skiing urban myth.
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Plake, that's why I'm wanting a name - it will either prove to be a myth (it's a friend of a friend, no honest), or we'll have the name of a guide who would prefer to injure skiers than train them in self-arrest techniques.
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veeeight...that's the whole point!
JT I did drop straps/leashes into the conversation, and they seemed to meet with fairly universal derision. Not at all sure I go with that though.

I initially considered including his name, but given the chorus of self-rightous indignation here I'm now glad I didn't - and won't. Although I've not met him, I do know he is highly respected and well known, and is very choosy (and rightly so) about who he takes on that kind of stuff, both in skiing ability and (tellingly) skiing style. I doubt (m)any of us here would qualify! And remember, this thread was asking about macho DIN settings....
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I don't have experience of skiing in such extreme conditions, but logically I can imagine situations where a ski popping off would be a higher risk than breaking a leg due to a high DIN.

As for the main question in the thread, I'm 5'11, 85 kgs, and I found that my DIN is better at 9 than at 8 offpiste. May well have to do with imperfect technique of course.
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GrahamN,

No problem, I guess you would have to be there and from this distance maybe its not all as clear as it seems..!!

Assume you had a great time and learnt lots tho'
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Well there you are then. I for one will not be skiing with that particular macho group.

He would stand no chance in North America re the litigation risks, not to mention the personal injury risks.

Even DH racers experiencing the ruts, bumps and shocks of the circuit would never lock out their bindings. It's just not a done thing in my world.
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veeeight, the difference with DH is that in DH, if something goes wrong you have a bit of a (albeit very high-speed) slide, maybe breaking something, before coming to rest in (or around) the safety netting - low chance of death, and you're better off without your skis on. In the stuff we're talking about here, you're probably going down a 50ish degree slope strewn with boulders/rocks and above a cliff. If it goes wrong you're chances of death are probably over 50% Shocked , and there's probably not much difference in effect between losing a ski and breaking your leg, so do everything you possibly can to avoid it! As my chances of doing this kind of terrain are pretty damn slim to say the least, I'm probably also never going to be in that group!

On the litigation point, I understand that the North American influence is causing concern for such guides. But that does then pose the question - is it better to be taken into the realms of extreme skiing by someone who knows exactly what they're doing and can assess the sources of risk at a level the client's probably rarely experienced before, or have them do it theirselves and make it up as they go along.

Back in the real world Wink - I'm 180cm, about 90kg and normally ski on DIN 8.5. This is pretty much what the chart says for a reasonably agressive skier. In falls sometimes both skis come off, sometimes just one, sometimes neither - and I'm pretty good at keeping them out of harms way during the fall. The only times I've felt in danger of leg damage (from non-releasing skis anyway) is in the <1mph drifts that happen e.g. if your skis get caught up with someone else coming off a lift. Were I doing any particularly hazardous skiing, I'd certainly consider racking the DIN up a notch or so.
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Worth a read (if a bit gory in places).

http://www.nisss.org/Rel_Env.htm

The author has a long and lauded record of ski safety research.
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GrahamN, why only consider? I wouldn't worry about racking it up. What makes the supermen of skiing so indestructible? There are lots out there with bindings (reasonably) set on +8. Their skis still seem to come off before they break their legs. I don't know what your absolute max is but it should to be quite a lot more than whatever is the +3 your chart would recommend. Of course, no point having the DIN any higher than necessary to prevent a pre-release for whatever the skiing you're doing. snowHead
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an important point to remember is to have a binding that has the DIN you use around the middle of the scale. This is the optimal design setting and more importantly the supposed calibration point for the spring.

for DH skis, mine START @ 14, but some of my slalom bindings finish at that. The 14-16 scale limit is very common on race/top of the line skis. This isn't normally a problem apart form a lighter (expert) skier skiing @ 8 say, on a binding that say starts at 7.
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paulhothersall, You illustrate the question. I don't doubt that you may be completely justified in needing a release setting that high and if you'll forgive the intrusion, are you willing to hazard answers to the following:

What are the forces in Nm to release you from your bindings?
Do you know if your muscular skeletal system, particularly your knee ligaments, can survive that level of torque?
If your skills were better would you need that level of attachment?
Is your setting that high just to ensure that you don't lose a ski in a race?

This thread was targeted at on-piste skiers, not racers or the powder hunters, but I think my comments below are mostly applicable to all ski situations, but please feel free to disagree.

I'm postulating that 'pre-release' is in most cases a myth and that for the majority of us, a ski release is just the binding doing its job because we've done something inappropriate for the conditions and overloaded the ski/human interface. That we fall over after is a comment on our inability to ski on one leg (practice) and the fact that the event that precipitated the binding release had already placed us out of balance and it would have made little difference if the ski were still attached.

Our mental image of a 'righteous' ski release seems to be only applicable if we've already fallen over and as we tumble or slide down the hill our skis fall off. It's our way of justifying our incompetence? wink
The argument here is that, hypothetically, in some situations it would be appropriate to reduce our settings as we improve our technique. The better we ski (as a recreational pursuit) the less we need to increase our DIN setting because the faster we travel, the greater the forces and the quicker they are applied to our bodies.
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Masque wrote:
paulhothersall, You illustrate the question. I don't doubt that you may be completely justified in needing a release setting that high and if you'll forgive the intrusion, are you willing to hazard answers to the following:


I will do my best!

Quote:

What are the forces in Nm to release you from your bindings?


@ DIN 10, my normal setting for free sking, with my 27.5 boots, Mr Salomon indicates approx 91Nm(toe) and 380Nm(Heel).

Quote:

Do you know if your muscular skeletal system, particularly your knee ligaments, can survive that level of torque?


Through experiance, yes. If you read my other posts, you will see how I moved up through the range, and I will explain in a follow up post my opinions regarding the reasons for varying the DIN dependent upon the application.

Quote:

If your skills were better would you need that level of attachment?


Yes. The DIN setting is a consequence of "type" of skiing, and the force/masses involved

I have often lent out skis to kids or ladies I am coaching to try for a run, and happily cruised around on DIN settings around 5 (either on their skis or on mine after not adusting them back after getting them back) without a problem.

I'm >100Kg, and have stiff race boots. I do generally free-ski in a very centered position on my skis.

Quote:

Is your setting that high just to ensure that you don't lose a ski in a race?


Yes.

A very basic coaches rule for high end skiers, that have "good stance" and appropriatly ski experianced leg muscles is that the DIN can be upto weight in Kg / 10. For racing, esp at higher speeds (with longer skis) the weight is stone can be seen as a maximum.

Quote:

This thread was targeted at on-piste skiers, not racers or the powder hunters, but I think my comments below are mostly applicable to all ski situations, but please feel free to disagree.



Just going to get some food (for thought), and i will get to this straight after.
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Masque wrote:

I'm postulating that 'pre-release' is in most cases a myth and that for the majority of us, a ski release is just the binding doing its job because we've done something inappropriate for the conditions and overloaded the ski/human interface. That we fall over after is a comment on our inability to ski on one leg (practice) and the fact that the event that precipitated the binding release had already placed us out of balance and it would have made little difference if the ski were still attached.

Our mental image of a 'righteous' ski release seems to be only applicable if we've already fallen over and as we tumble or slide down the hill our skis fall off. It's our way of justifying our incompetence? wink
The argument here is that, hypothetically, in some situations it would be appropriate to reduce our settings as we improve our technique. The better we ski (as a recreational pursuit) the less we need to increase our DIN setting because the faster we travel, the greater the forces and the quicker they are applied to our bodies.


I agree that the binding is doing exactly what it is supposed to do, at the correct setting.

consider a normal skier, on a normal run, skiing centered on thier skis.

Any impulse force applied to the ski is either exerted by the skier, or by the terrain.

In the first instance, if the skier is able to exert a force greater than the setting of the binding then inhernently the setting (in that set of circumstances) is to low if the intention is that the ski should have remain attached. If the intention is to release, such as in the event of the skier falling over (one way or another) then the binding is correctly set, as the force to release is less than the force required to injure the skier. I

n any case, and for various reasons, a skier is likely to exert some force during turns that is applied to the binding in a direction of binding release.

In the second instance, the terrain exerts a force on the ski. this could be say, hitting a mogul/death cookie, or slowing down due to a transition to a flat spot or a bump. Conservation of momentum means the skiers mass carries on (initially) in the same direction at the same speed. Example when hitting a bump, the skier may be pitched forward. If the impluse is large enough to release the binding, then it has done it's job again, ie releasing beforee injuring the skier.

The issue comes when the skier is applying a force to the ski, for example leaning forward or at least using the front part of the ski when starting a turn. That force combinded with the force from the terrain (when hitting a small bump) can be greater than the forces required to release the binding. This is what i believe you are getting at w.r.t pre-release. Bad technique is one reason for this, another is pardoxically good technique (working the tip to tail as part of the turn).

Consider also the effect of a high level skier on say a groomer run whilst having high edge angles. The force components in the directions of release of the binding are significantly different to a flat skidded turn. This is why a centered skier can ski "with more force" without pre-releasing on a low DIN setting.

I leave as an exercise for the reader to determine why (whilst accepting the torque to release is safety relevent and a "fixed limit), that there are 2 (possibly 3) primary reasons for a racer wanting differing DIN settings for a piste with the same condition for different race disiplines. answers later, but gold stars for those that get it right.
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Mike Lawrie wrote:
Can't argue with that. I take it you earn enough money at racing to make the risk worthwhile?

I know enough people at European Cup level and even who've raced in the World Cup, who get their skis provided and not much else. No money in alpine ski racing unless you're in the top thirty or so in the world, or unless you're extremely good at self-promotion! (So no shame there Paul wink Very Happy)

I inherited a pair of slalom skis used by one such racer last year where the minimum possible setting is 16, if I remember right. I obviously haven't used them myself. (Just to bring us back to bindings...)
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