 Poster: A snowHead
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I've been skiing piste for a few years and really fancy exploring the mountains by plank.
Do resorts offer touring expeditions for idiots? How good on piste should I be before signing up for this sort of tom foolery? Is there a 'piste to outback' book or guide which any of you would recommend?
Going to Tignes with my fairer half in two weeks, but not much chance then as she doesn't fancy it, but going to Les Arcs in March with the boys, one of whom may be game...
Thanks in advance...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I think that 'cross country' is usually used when talking about long, thin skis best used for going along, and not so much of the up and down. Did you really mean the sort of skiing where you go up a mountain under your own steam and ski back down again?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I mean the sort of treking and skiing and exploring sort of thing.
As somebody transitioning from Piste, is the most important thing to get off piste lessons, or is there something more specific which includes navigation, safety, etc...
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@dylan32, I think you mean ski touring, rather than cross-country. I did an "introductory" day to ski-touring, using skins, climbing around 450m (which was quite enough for a first outing with lots of snow and kick turns) and then skiing (rather badly in my case) down again. That was in the Beaufortain, meeting at Beaufort on a Sunday morning, but I dare say there are people doing similar things in other areas. You'll need to rent the right skis/bindings/boots.
It was a great day - superb weather, glorious scenery, I really enjoyed it but decided that I was too old for hard-core touring. Took up cross-country instead. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Thanks pam! So it's ski touring I need to be researching. Your day sounds great. Did you have any prior experience or was everything (other than equipment) provided?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Thanks Yoda. There's no way I would consider going alone, I don't consider myself an experienced piste skiier let alone anything else.
Going to look for an day trip first I think. Thanks!
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| dylan32 wrote: |
| I mean the sort of treking and skiing and exploring sort of thing. |
...which covers both kinds But the kind that mainly involves going up mountains and skiing down is called (amongst other things) ski touring, ski de randonee, ski mountaineering, etc.
| dylan32 wrote: |
| As somebody transitioning from Piste, is the most important thing to get off piste lessons, or is there something more specific which includes navigation, safety, etc... |
Get you some off-piste lessons. There are loads of companies who do these, and in big resorts you'll find a bunch of different places who will offer a range of off-piste lessons for whatever skill level. They'll probably be able to help you out with the equipment you need, or at least point you in the direction of someone who can hire you some. Certainly, you'll be spoiled for choice in Tignes (do a quick search of the forum for lesson recommendations). Once you're reasonably happy off piste (and you don't need to be an expert by any means) then start looking for introductory ski touring stuff. You'll need specialist kit for that, though... boots, skis and bindings and the cost and inconvenience can quickly mount.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Thanks Serriadh!
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| Serriadh wrote: |
| specialist kit |
Pedant mode on, but it's generalist kit really. The advantage of touring bindings, lightweight rubber-soled boots and all mountain type skis is that (with a bit of effort) they can take you anywhere. Unlike specialist kit (heavy, hard-soled alpine boots and short radius or twin tip skis) which are kind of focussed on making the most out of lift served piste racing, or park ratting.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@dylan32, If E.K. check out http://www.alpineexperience.com/off-piste/ - "when the resort becomes tracked out we need to walk to find virgin snow, and touring bindings and ‘skins’ then become essential"
Jean-Marc and Olivier are great guys. They'll be able to direct you to kit rental. Just be aware that much of the time in touring, the uphill is the fun bit...and the downhill can be challenging 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I've been skiing piste for 7 years (late starter) and off-piste for a year and would not yet be comfortable to do ski-touring as off-piste is harder (for me) than I thought ...
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Yeah, I don't think people generally start touring(*) without having dabbled a fair bit in lift-served off piste. Might just be me, but I can't say I'd be tempted with trudging up the hill if I didn't have the necessary basics to enjoy the ride down again! (I'm doing ever more trudging these days.. don't know what's happening to me! Maybe one day, if/when I'm fit enough, I'll even stop thinking of it as trudging!)
(*) "touring" makes it sound like a big thing; is that what it's really called even when you just skin up a hill next to or even in a resort? I guess like the OP I would have called it cross-country unless it involved all-day adventures and possibly even overnight stays in a hut. Is cross-country different from Nordic skiing or are they the same thing, and which is the one where you skate along other people's ski tracks? I only know the meaning of the terms in Spanish/French/Catalan 
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
I don't think people generally start touring(*) without having dabbled a fair bit in lift-served off piste
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Not convinced. I think there's a population that do/have done. I know many people who tour for the touring, any pleasure in the descent is an unanticipated bonus.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| moffatross wrote: |
| Pedant mode on, but it's generalist kit really. The advantage of touring bindings, lightweight rubber-soled boots and all mountain type skis is that (with a bit of effort) they can take you anywhere. Unlike specialist kit (heavy, hard-soled alpine boots and short radius or twin tip skis) which are kind of focussed on making the most out of lift served piste racing, or park ratting. |
That's a good point. I was thinking of special meaning unusual, and perhaps specialist meaning some additional skills to merely use, beyond those required for normal resort piste skiing. I guess that's not really the case anymore. Still pricier and less convenient, though
| Pyremaniac wrote: |
| Yeah, I don't think people generally start touring(*) without having dabbled a fair bit in lift-served off piste. Might just be me, but I can't say I'd be tempted with trudging up the hill if I didn't have the necessary basics to enjoy the ride down again! |
I guess you'd want to know a bit about what 3d snow felt like, and at least be able to do survival turns in crappy conditions. You don't need a whole lot beyond that though. On a good day and a nice route, the way up can be quite pleasant, and the ski down can be substantially less challenging than a steep, scoured, busy piste.
| Pyremaniac wrote: |
| "touring" makes it sound like a big thing; is that what it's really called even when you just skin up a hill next to or even in a resort? I guess like the OP I would have called it cross-country unless it involved all-day adventures and possibly even overnight stays in a hut. Is cross-country different from Nordic skiing or are they the same thing, and which is the one where you skate along other people's ski tracks? I only know the meaning of the terms in Spanish/French/Catalan |
I honestly don't know where my notion of 'cross country' comes from, but I've always associated with the sort of classic nordic style gear which definitely isn't oriented towards downhill stuff, but much more towards skating. Maybe ski sunday called it that, back in the day?
I probably wouldn't call a short skin a 'tour' either; maybe just a hike
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Pyremaniac wrote: |
| Yeah, I don't think people generally start touring(*) without having dabbled a fair bit in lift-served off piste. |
I've ski toured right from the start, being a climber touring was always my goal. I generally think of "touring" as multi-day outings into the mountains and day tours as just shorter outings. Piste skiing is just something you have to do to get good enough to be able to tour safely but using the lifts means you progress much more quickly.
If you do want to try ski touring one organization worth checking out is the Eagle ski club, they run many trips suitable for beginners and expert alike.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
I probably wouldn't call a short skin a 'tour' either; maybe just a hike
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indeed, my "bapteme" was just a one day "ski randonée" which really just means off the beaten track - miles from lifts. A mild hill walk, on skis. My companions were a young French couple - he was a good skier and very fit, but she was a trifle overweight and very badly over-dressed (thermal leggings under thick salopettes) and struggled more than I did on the hike up. They were both post-doc Physicists so having been talking French all morning I discovered, when she and I sat in the sun and waited while the chaps did a couple of hundred metres extra, that like all senior level scientists they spoke excellent English. I enjoyed the hike up much more than the ski down, actually. The latter involved some bushes, into one of which my skis became inextricably wedged. The guide pulled me out, rather than wait for me to extricate myself. I was glad to see the guide fitted the stereotype - slight, skinny, had some gear done up with gaffer tape, looked like he could run up Mont Blanc before breakfast. Extraordinarily French.
Because I turned up at the rendezvous on time, and with the right gear (the French couple were late, and on downhill gear, so we had to detour to a ski hire place) I got some initial Brownie points, though I rapidly used them up on the ski down. I went up the mountain better than the French girl but she skied down it with more aplomb than I did. 
The café we met in, on the Sunday morning, was full of the sort of skinny, gnarly mountain men who looked like they did 1000m ascents before breakfast. I felt way out of my comfort zone! I had also felt slightly foolish, the previous day, skinning up beside a drag lift just to make sure I'd sorted out how to get the skins on, and what it felt like. BUT I did find the touring boots a revelation - light and comfortable, albeit straight off the shelf at the ski hire shop. And, with the heels clipped down, more than adequate for the kind of skiing I do, which is generally very intermediate.
I found proper cross-country skiing infinitely harder, actually - not physically, but in terms of technique and balance.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@dylan32, Hi - I had a google around and found this helpful description of the different sorts of ski-ing. I have linked to the touring page but there are links to the other sorts of ski-ing at the bottom of the page. I've no particular knowledge of the company linked to, but I have been a cross-country ski-er for many years (on- and off-track), and thought the pages looked a useful introduction to that at least.
As everyone else has said, I think you may actually be thinking of Alpine Touring, under its various names, so you might like to rename the thread so you get more responses from people with an interest in that.
Have fun.
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@nordicfan, great link, thanks! So, turns out there's a thing called Nordic Touring which I was completely oblivious of, and which can be embarked upon with little more from the Alpine Downhill toolbox than a strong snowplough! I stand corrected. The thing I was thinking of was definitely Alpine Touring (or its baby brother, the quick skin up), and that site seems to confirm that generally lift-served off piste experience is a prerequisite. I say "generally"; of course there will be exceptions, as other posters have already confirmed.
And cross-country = Nordic = track = esquí de fondo (which is what I know it as), with its two rather different approaches, is the skatey track thing - which I should probably pay more attention to, given the increasingly knackered state of my knees 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Actually, @nordicfan, @Pyremaniac, I think that site has a few things a little wrong.
I don't think "touring" or "randonnee" gets formally divided into "nordic" or "alpine" (I've never noticed anyone talk like that).
And I really don't get what they mean by "note ‘walk mode’ with heels still clipped into the hinged part of the binding". That's the opposite of what happens, in every respect.
I think that if I was out for a tour in the Cairngorms, I'd want what they refer to "alpine touring" kit and that I think everyone else just calls "touring".
However, there is such a thing as "Nordic Back Country" - which could, I guess, also be referred to as "nordic touring" - which is where you use wider, beefier cross country skis, chunky soled cross country boots and beefed up cross country bindings - which don't lock the heels - to do relatively flat, long distance, off the beaten track, cross-country-ski tours. Which is where I think they're confusing their descriptions.
Note also that from a marketing point of view, there is now a genre of boots known as "Freeride", which are designed to be nearly as good on piste as alpine boots and nearly as good for touring as touring boots. IME they succeed rather better at the latter than the former. But they are proving very successful amongst the wannabee gnarlies.
As well as being very attractive if you really want only one boot that does everything, more or less well enough.
So, @dylan32, for example, I think these are rather interesting http://www.dynafit.com/en/mercury-tf.html
Just to round off the pedantic lecture, cross country is, as far as I hear, completely synonymous with Nordic and apart from BC comes in two more commonly seen in France flavours, "classic" where you ski along tracks, pre-made, and "skating" where you skate. Different kit, completely.
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| under a new name wrote: |
| .......Just to round off the pedantic lecture, cross country is, as far as I hear, completely synonymous with Nordic and apart from BC comes in two more commonly seen in France flavours, "classic" where you ski along tracks, pre-made, and "skating" where you skate. Different kit, completely. |
And the pricing of kit between skating and classic is huge as skating kit is far more technical.
And for skating you still need to use the prepared x-country tracks, you just don't use the grooves cut for the classic.
I'm probably going to "upgrade" from classic to skating this season, last season I did a fair amount of classic and a couple of sessions on skating kit and my times were so much quicker, though do need some technique advice I feel 
As for ski touring best time of year to "get into it" is definitely the spring as classic spring snow is so much easier to ski.
But to be able to do that you have to understand all the factors involved in spring skiing.
Last season I probably spent more days touring (30 or so) than actually skiing on the piste, though some involved taking a lift and then skiing "off the back" and then skinning back up into resort.
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@Weathercam,
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for skating you still need to use the prepared x-country tracks
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Not if you're doing the Inferno Combination you don't. Any old around the village path, with the addition of some man made obstacles will do.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@dylan32, your first sentence suggests that you want to be more adventurous in the mountains. I felt that way for quite a while and then I took some off piste lessons in Val d'Isere. The joy is that everything you do is lift accessed and when you start you are quite near the piste so that if it all gets too much or if you get injured you are not too far away from a nice firm base. As you progress you go further afield and you get the joy of experiencing what appears to be some lovely, deserted countryside but with an easy way back home. Off piste skiing in 3d snow, as Serriadh calls it, is quite different to piste skiing and can be very tiring. You probably don't want your first try at it after and hour or two of walking up hill.
So my advice would be break it down into its component parts. Take some off piste lessons to learn how to ski down. Maybe borrow or hire some skins and get some tuition for going up. Try some of those routes that you get to by skinning or "booting" (is that what they call it?) from a lift. My brother tried off piste skiing and really didn't like it. He didn't like having to pick a line, think about his turns and his body position, and that the snow gave under him.
I have to say that at the moment my joy in life is coming down hill. So I want to spend as little time going up as possible. And, at my current rates of two or three days a year skiing off piste, it's going to be a long time before I get tired of that. If I was to do some touring I'd probably want to do it as a separate trip - maybe convince a snowHead to take me out for a day in Scotland. I don't know where you live but if you're close enough to get to Scotland for a day of two that might be an option.
Hope that's helpful. I've probably said what everyone else has but using different words.
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And @dylan32, I can't remember who else suggested it, but it would be a good idea to change the title. Take out the cross country and substitute touring or backcountry.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Thanks guys! Loads of excellent advice here for me to get into.
Similar to some of you, my interest in skiing comes from other mountain activities (trail running, adventure racing and mountain biking) so I'm very much interested in the multi day exploration type stuff. This would be seperate from my piste holidays.
I think I'll look into some off-piste lessons to begin with...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| under a new name wrote: |
| I don't think "touring" or "randonnee" gets formally divided into "nordic" or "alpine" (I've never noticed anyone talk like that). |
Fair enough; though like you I suppose the "Nordic Back Country" could be what the guy means by "Nordic Touring".
| Quote: |
| And I really don't get what they mean by "note ‘walk mode’ with heels still clipped into the hinged part of the binding". That's the opposite of what happens, in every respect. |
Yeah, that threw me too - but then I realized that the second guy is not free-heeling (I think); he's actually clipped in but with his boots in the supposedly more flexible "walk mode" that seems to be found on so many boots these days (the kind you later describe ).
| Quote: |
| I think that if I was out for a tour in the Cairngorms, I'd want what they refer to "alpine touring" kit and that I think everyone else just calls "touring". |
Right, but if you only wanted to do an hour's skinning up, you'd use touring kit but it'd be a struggle to call it a tour.
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Excellent .
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You know it makes sense.
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I started on the touring lark on the famous Moonlight tour in Forstau in Austria, where about 200 skiers head up late afternoon to the top hut, have a fantastic meal and then ski down by head torch later in the evening. It's all on piste and there are huts to stop at on the way up. It's a great chance to get practice in and perfect your technique and pace before heading out back country.
I now have touring/freeride bindings on both my off piste skis, they may be a little heavy but it means I can always access areas that most people don't get to. They are also as solid as alpine bindings. I can heartily recommend heading out on a tour, taking a picnic and find a secluded spot with a beautiful view. On a nice day it beats a hut for lunch.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Pyremaniac, A true classic 
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Serriadh, That is one of the funniest U tube films ever made. I often show it to people. I'm assuming there wasn't much reaction because everyone knew it.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Also, low traffic forum
There was another video I was looking for... another spoof of the JP Auclair street segment from all.i.can, but done by a few people on nordic skis. I think it was called something like 'of course i can['t] Alas, I can't find it on vimeo, and the copyright bots have eaten it on youtube. I should make copies of the good bits of the internet; there's not many of them so they shouldn't take up much space!
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FAQ
) with different snow conditions, learning "mountain lore" and all the rest of it but if you find that skinning up mountains is not for you in the first place it's best to find that out early on. A guide or instructor can take you to some suitable places to get some practice - but I think you'll more than likely have to hire the equipment separately.
