 Poster: A snowHead
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It started like this.
I really like my Rossignol skis (Pursuit 16 Ti Skis + Axium 120 TPI2 Bindings/170) - they are very nice and easy to ski but after two seasons on them I wanted something a bit more lively and challenging that I could really "Get Jiggy Wit It" with more grip on ice, maybe tighter turning, and be able to get more extreme high speed lean angles on hard pack but still be able to scoot with the Mrs. to the next Cappuccino/Chocolate break.
So I went to solutions4feet and Andi McCann tweaked my footbeds and boots (Atomic Hawx 100 with Sidas foam injected liners) and determined my ideal ramp angle to be between +2mm and +4mm. When I got home I measured my Rossignol skis and unsurprisingly the ramp delta is +3mm. 
So far so good.
Looked at what was around and was torn between Volkl Code Speedwall S UVOs (166) and Head Magnums (170), the latter of which looked favourite being a little tighter turning with a ramp delta (in 2014) of +2mm and maybe more suitable for an old giffer like me. 
Got an excellent deal on them and took them home. And looked at them and thought, hang on a minute! Out came the tape measure - and the ramp delta is now +6mm! The 2015 Head Magnum is exactly the same ski as the 2014 but the binding has changed to the Head PRX 12S Rail Flex which has increased the ramp delta from +2mm to +6mm - that's a lot! I was incidentally assured by someone from a large independent ski shop  that "ramp delta doesn't really matter to the recreational skier". Oh really, changing from one year to the next on exactly the same ski from +2mm to +6mm doesn't matter? 
I exchanged the Heads for the Volkls (paid £5 more!) which have a ramp delta of -2mm (yes, really!) then toddle off to Hintertux early November for a few days to check out the Volkls (while the wife is in Istanbul shopping with her pals, nice escape huh?). Good grief, I'm in the back seat going all over the place - scarey! Then armed with emails from Andi McCann, 2mm plastic sheet, velcro and duck tape in my back pack I progressively pack out the heels of the bindings and finally figure that a ramp delta of zero is skiable but +2 is pretty nice - couldn't try any more than that because the bindings wouldn't close. Glad I got the Volkls, the edge grip is staggering and they just laugh at ice. They are epic, way better than me, and enormous fun and knackering only because all I ever want to do is push them harder.
Went back to solutions4feet where CEM first of all put new sole plates on my boots because the old ones were very badly worn (oops) then put 5mm heel lifters on my boots making the overall ramp delta +3mm, then routed the heels to the ISO/DIN 30mm standard.
Excellent, thanks Colin and Andi, you're both stars! 
These are (rather poor, sorry) pictures of the modified boots in the bindings:
Modified Boot: http://s620.photobucket.com/user/iriejohn/media/ModifiedBoot.jpg.html
Boot Toe: http://s620.photobucket.com/user/iriejohn/media/BootToe.jpg.html
Boot Heel: http://s620.photobucket.com/user/iriejohn/media/BootHeel.jpg.html
(I actually did the measurements with the boots loaded so not quite exactly as in the pics).
But that's not all - being a curious sort I decide to measure the Rossis and the Volkls and this is what I found, a surprise to me but maybe not to those of you who know much more about skis.
Rossignol Pursuit 16 Ti (2013) vs Volkl Code Speedwall S UVO (2015)
.............................. --- cm ---
..................... Rossignol ....Volkl
.....................----------- --------
Length ...................170 ......166
Nose rocker .............25 ....... 31
Tail rocker ................ 6 ........16
Running surface ... 141 ..... 119
CRS .........................70.5 .... 59.5
Binding:
Toe ahead of CRS .. 13.5 .... 13.5
Heel behind CRS .....18 ....... 18
So both skis have the bindings set at exactly the same position relative to the Centre of Running Surface.
Let the flaming begin.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Thu 11-12-14 18:59; edited 3 times in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@irie, don't understand most of that. Suffice it to say that the combined services of Colin and Andi have me skiing to the best of my ability (which isn't actually very well, but that's not their fault.) 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Ramp delta is the difference in height between the heel and toe of your bindings. So for example the Volkl's above, the binding heel height is 43mm and the toe height is 45mm. Thus heel-toe = 43-45 = -2mm ... in this case the toe is higher than the heel (the toe is far more frequently lower than the heel for piste skis). This directly influences posture on a ski and its performance, but there are no industry standards for this, it's a shambles.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Mon 8-12-14 21:32; edited 1 time in total
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
This directly influences posture on a ski and its performance, but there are no industry standards for this, it's a shambles.
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Not that much. Frequently jumping from relatively neutral to the 17mm ramp on some Dynafits is a bit of a ball-ache, but still totally adjustable to (not ideal, agreed, but perfectly skiable and enjoyable). A couple of mm should make very little difference, unless you're ridiculous tall maybe.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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The skiers ability to adapt depends on how advanced/experienced/athletic/sensitive to posture/etc. the skier is doesn't it?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@irie, i'd have thought that too. I am quite fussy about skis, etc. but I think (!) I'm relatively insensitive to ramp/delta.
Some skis are just nicer thanothers, etc.
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+1 for the services of Colin and Andi. Being "just right" on your skis makes a world of difference.
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So basically your optimum was determined as +2 to +4 so you reject +6, go for -2 and find yourself in the back seat and have to have a load of adjustments made. That seems like a poor bargain.
I don't see how you can determine an optimum angle in a shop. It depends on the type of ski, your level of experience, skiing style, , snow conditions and what kind of skiing you want to do. Thus you need to experiment by going skiing.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| irie wrote: |
| The skiers ability to adapt depends on how advanced/experienced/athletic/sensitive to posture/etc. the skier is doesn't it? |
Yeah for sure, but I think you'd have to be REALLY sensitive to struggle to adjust to 2mm difference.
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@hyperkub
The Rossis are +3mm.
It's easy and quick to adjust heel height - about 30 minutes.
I did go skiing.
Adding 5mm to heels is making "loads of adjustments"? 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Clarky999 wrote: |
| Yeah for sure, but I think you'd have to be REALLY sensitive to struggle to adjust to 2mm difference. |
Why should I adjust when the adjustments can be made so they're exactly the way I want them? Lost me there, sorry. 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| irie wrote: |
| Clarky999 wrote: |
| Yeah for sure, but I think you'd have to be REALLY sensitive to struggle to adjust to 2mm difference. |
Why should I adjust when the adjustments can be made so they're exactly the way I want them? Lost me there, sorry. |
No reason at all - I was just surprised by how shocked you were when told that a 4mm difference wouldn't make any difference.
Personally it's only when I frequently ski different bindings that I have a problem - if I ski my dynafits exclusively for a couple of days straight I don't have a problem with the ramp, it's only when coming from a few days skiing barons that they feel wrong. I think for many people a couple of hours skiing would be enough that a couple of mm different ramp wouldn't be noticeable/detrimental.
Certainly different skis would make way more difference, and, if I've understood you correctly, I definitely wouldn't buy your second-choice skis just 'cos the ramp in the bindings is a few mm less!
But, glad you're happy with them anyway!
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You know it makes sense.
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| under a new name wrote: |
@irie, i'd have thought that too. I am quite fussy about skis, etc. but I think (!) I'm relatively insensitive to ramp/delta.
Some skis are just nicer thanothers, etc. |
I think I'm pretty fussy about skis as well, it's not that many are unskiable but some are nicer. I recently got to test a load of skis over 4 days and I did a feel a bit of a difference between brands, now who knows whether this was due to my inbuilt prejudices or something else.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Clarky999 "No reason at all - I was just surprised by how shocked you were when told that a 4mm difference wouldn't make any difference"
I wasn't shocked, I was on the one hand surprised that the manufacturer had arbitrarily changed the binding geometry on a popular recreational ski, and on the other hand the dealer evidently did not think it made any difference.
Incidentally, if you read my post again you will see the the Vs were actually my first choice but thought they might be 'too much' for me so went for the 'safe choice'. I was wrong.
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Poster: A snowHead
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It's threads like this that make me happy, smug, irritating (delete as appropriate) that I telemark . . . ZEEZ GUYS, if you cannot feel and adapt your body dynamics to differing ramp angles whilst recreational skiing (racing for the last thousandth of a second is different) then it's not your equipment it's your technique, fitness and experience that's the problem.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I was quite sceptical about the process, but gave it a go and was pleasantly surprised that it did make (some) difference to how balanced I felt. 0 degree binding delta angle felt the most natural, allowing me to move easily to stay in dynamic balance. I also have both footbeds rated outwards by 3 degrees, which has the biggest impact in terms of me being able to feel my little toe edge of my inside ski. None of this will transform my skiing, of course, but every little bit helps.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Masque wrote: |
| It's threads like this that make me happy, smug, irritating (delete as appropriate) that I telemark . . . ZEEZ GUYS, if you cannot feel and adapt your body dynamics to differing ramp angles whilst recreational skiing (racing for the last thousandth of a second is different) then it's not your equipment it's your technique, fitness and experience that's the problem. |
As the saying goes 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I’m interested in the plastic sheet, velcro and duck tape solution and how it affects binding release.
For anyone that doesn’t think this matters, wait until you stand on their tilty thingy and even an adjustment of 1deg feels huge and this is just standing let alone skiing. That angle times the height of your centre of gravity does end up being significant. Alignment is still more important though.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Fortunately I didn't crash with max plastic sheet and duck tape in the heels.
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