Are ESF really that bad?

A snowHead

@irie, I can never understand any of your posts. I doubt if anyone who came from a skiing country could either. It seems a peculiarly brit issue. wink

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Based purely on the class sizes that they allow I think IMO and IME the answer is yes. Purely from a safety aspect the group sizes are absurd, they are a money making machine. Yes they can produce good skiers but fall short in a lot of cases too. I have got a lot of work from people who had used ESF in the past and difference their kids have had in terms of enjoyment and learning is big.

I would automatically go to and ESI if cost is a main concern. The ESI I worked for for 4 years have a cap of 9 kids per class now and 7/8 adults costing around €130 per week for 10 hours of classes. Although in reality we only hit these caps in the 5/6 major weeks. Meanwhile ESF have up to 14 and sometimes more in this same valley. I know when teaching a group of 10 kids that simply in terms of safety to ski with many more is silly and simply a way of making more money.

ESI' are of course like other schools a franschise and some do run larger groups. As a parent or individual going to a ski school max group size should be the first question for anyone. If you are leaving your kid with a ski school safety should be a priority, ESF have plenty of great teachers here in our valley, I know some I have skied with them and I have taught along side them for hundreds of days, but no matter how good you are the chances of something going wrong with such a large group are higher than they ought to be.

I now teach as an independent where a lot of the work is private. The cost I think is relatively high (although nothing compared to other parts of the alps or our over priced Swiss neighbours employing drastically lower qualified teachers) however the progress is much faster and in a very safe environment where you can provide real individual care and attention.

I am sure ESF get good results, as do ESI and so do many other schools, but ski school policy should not allow such large group sizes. Everyone will get results of course...I simply skied a lot as a kid and began BASI at 17, now having the ISTD. Before 17 years old I had never attended ski school or any formal training. However I teach a lot of 10-14 year old who are very good for their age and far more technically aware and advanced than I ever was at the same age.

There is more to the question than my answer as ESF have a lot of control and sway where in theory they should not. However, purely from the aspect of ski school choice there are more often than not better options IMO.

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As our kids were growing up, the only bad experience that we had with ski schools was in France; not with ESF, but with a school that was touted as a superior alternative. The only bad experiences that any of my friends or associates have had with ski schools have been in France. The only place where I have personally seen absurdly large classes of children on the slopes is France. The only country where I have heard friends tell of their children being left on the mountain by an instructor who didn't even notice their absence was France.

The plural of anecdote is not data. I am sure that many people are very happy with the instruction that their children have received in France. But the huge incidence of anecdotes about the low quality of instruction in some French ski schools must lead me to recommend that anyone considering entrusting their children to a French ski school - ESF or otherwise - would be very wise to do a little homework. Look for online reviews. Examine the school's policy on class sizes. Examine the school's web site for evidence of their corporate culture. If your holiday company has experienced foot-soldiers on the ground in your resort, seek their opinion.

In short, be careful. Caveat emptor. Trust no-one.

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Yep I would totally agree that a class size of 8 maximum. That has not been the thrust of the argument on here which has so often been the free market is the solution and the relevance of the speed test.

France? OK let's take the free market CH. I know because a friend is doing a season there. Yep the lesson prices are eye watering and she is instructing now for those high prices having only done a gap course with absolutely no actual teaching experience. Not only that she is paying for the experience. That is the business model. Seems the only real winner there is the ski school unless you as a customer like paying a fortune for someone with no experience or you are someone willing to pay to snow plough to play at being an amateur instructor for a season for the experience

I've done the big name brit schools and it is all been packaging, marketing and "customer experience" and sod all actual instruction. Big names have even told me they would like to instruct their customers but most brits are looking for an experience rather than instruction. I've learnt nothing from the big name brit ski schools. It has been a complete waste of time and money. It is local ex racers who have skied to a high level and are professional instructors employing the methods they learnt from race training themselves and coaching racers that have taught me to ski.

Reality is tough to get good quality value lessons during school holidays. But based on the above neither is the free market with brit amateurs playing at being instructors the solution. Indeed buyer beware. Problem is the typical customer has very little knowledge. It's laughable that Brits are fighting to have someone like me instruct. The customer does not know best. They don't have sufficient knowledge and the free market and anti-ET arguments are absolute nonsense based on ignorance and prejudice.

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I would say my ESF experiences have been overall reasonable, neither outstanding nor terrible. The best quality instruction in France by far has without doubt been through UCPA- an off piste week at Chamonix and on piste at Tignes both equally valuable.

After all it is free

Given that on page 25 of this thread ...

http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=113494

... you said ...

Doing something and liking it are not the same thing. No contradiction. People ski for different reasons. It is difficult to take you seriously when you make up contradictions where there are no logical contradictions at all. Neh Neh

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The contradiction is that you really do expect people to take you seriously when you openly profess to not liking the sport you offer 'advice' on!

I've heard it all now ...

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I find the concept of taking anything too seriously on a message board strange. Again just because you don't like something doesn't mean you don't have a lot of experience of doing something. I don't like work either but still fully qualified to give an opinion. A lot of people that I like and care about like skiing, I like being with them, I get lots of invites to ski personally and for business so I ski and might as well get the best instruction while I'm at it. I'm sure lots of people ski primarily because of family, friends, relationships. Does not mean these people don't have a valid opinion. It is really not that difficult.

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some opinions are more valid than others. It is entirely valid for you to have an opinion but does not make those opinions right. The more varied your experience is the more informed that opinion is likely to be - I think it is great of the French to give you the opportunity unlike other countries to have a more varied experience Happy

You know it makes sense.

@TTT, Your poor husband...I bet he never wins an argument Laughing

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

@laundryman, Yeah, same as on the other thread about SB, I really can't be ar*ed any more. Laughing

A snowHead

A snowHead

The unity of the Surrey possy is admirable. Happy

. My customers have commented they are glad I don't represent the other side. I'm not a Brit TO holiday skier so just may be some people have another perspective and may be that means that alternative perspective does not fit with other people's preconceptions of the world or is that not allowed on SH.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

@TTT

I'm not a TO skier, I don't live in Surrey, and I have dual Brit/Canuck citizenship.

So I guess that means that you must have a secret crush on me?

Laughing

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@TTT,

I'm not a TO skier & I come from Yorkshire so you can't tell me 'owt wink

I also work for the ESF Very Happy

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@stewart woodward

I'm Spartacus

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My experience of ESF and other ski schools in France over the last 30 years is very variable. My kids all used ESF in Courchevel and Morzine back in the late 80s and 90s and had a great time and improved on every trip. We usually went off peak in Jan and my eldest was often the only child in his advanced group. I have had private lessons with ESF which amounted to follow me with very little instruction through to very detailed assistance with skiing bumps and powder.
I have also used independent schools with a similar level of variability. One instructor giving beginner lessons nearly put my partner off skiing for life by failing to ensure that she was able to control her speed before taking her out onto the mountain.
My experience of using British trained instructors, both under the old ESC system and the BASI system, has always been good. Admittedly this has been largely for beginners on dry slopes and fridges but I first learned to ski parallel on a dry slope with an ASSI who had never been any type of racer.
@TTT you obviously are not a typical holiday skier you don't enjoy it but do it because it's provided in some form of cheap deal. Your skiing level appears to quite high and probably higher than many holiday skiers strive for. Your opinions on what makes a good instructor for the average holiday skier are probably invalid for these reasons. You are entitled to air them but please recognise that others largely disagree and constantly repeating them like a broken gramophone record is never going to change that.

After all it is free

Yep those that don't take my advice Happy

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@tarrantd, there are no cheap deals. There is some business stuff which is partially subsidised but which I'm expected to do in my free time. I have done the brit TO things many times in the past, used local ski schools and used the big name brit ski schools and it is the ex racers who have given the best instructions. People need a lot less feedback than they think. They also don't need all the packaging, marketing and touchy feely customer experience. If you really want to improve you need a skilled experienced instructor who gives you the instruction you need and is clear and direct rather than some touchy feely customer experience. I don't suppose that Alex ferguson was ever concerned about the customer experience or how people he was training felt - he just wanted to get the best performance out of the people he was training. It might not always been an enjoyable customer experience but it is what you need to do if you really do want to improve. I appreciate that is not what a lot of people want and also some people are so entrenched in their narrow views and experiences that it will never be possible for them to see things from an alternative perspective even if it would be in their best interests to try something different. That is human nature and I'm not going to change that.

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Ferguson was the boss, NOT the paying customer ...... And it was work not holiday snowHead

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@TTT, just out if interest, can you describe what you mean by the "touchy feely customer experience"?

@TTT, you talk about all these things as though they are mutually exclusive: my regular instructor is a British TO; attentive to customer care; with 30 years in the same resort, knows the mountains like the back of his hand; and is a current FIS Masters racer.

You know it makes sense.

@laundryman

You're wasting your breath, you're not going to change TTT's mind. She's astoundingly arrogant.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

@TTT you seem to think that everyone learns in the same way. You obviously don't ski for fun and so being shouted at and bullied works well. For many nervous beginners you have simply destroyed any desire to ski or certainly to have any more lessons. We all learn in different ways and for some the teaching ability of the instructor is more important than the do what I do and why can't you do it approach. I for one am glad that you have no intention of ever being a paid instructor as your obvious lack of empathy would make you quite unpopular with the vast hoards of beginners that you would encounter!

A snowHead

@rob@rar, the marketing as if they have discovered the secret of ski instruction no one else have. Good marketing but poor instruction. I'm sure you can guess and I'm not including your good selves from what I've seen and heard although I think some of your level descriptions are a bit generous although not as amusing as S+R.

A lot of what I've done with the brit ski schools was taking you places that you would not otherwise go and blowing smoke up the proverbial. There was very little good solid instruction. If doing slow drills on a nursery slow is good enough for international race teams it is good enough for me. I believe in working on the fundamentals.

I believe in coaching like a good football coach - you get support and encouragement when you are struggling and a dose of reality and a kick up the backside when you need it.

Of course I know people learn in different ways. You would be surprised. I play the customer game all the time. Sometimes they don't like what you have to say but in the end you get a lot more respect for giving good advice that helps rather than telling people what they want to hear. That takes experience and confidence of operating at the highest level.

I've absolutely no idea who laundryman could possibly be referring to.

Just admit this place would be duller without someone raising the blood pressure.

A snowHead

I've had a few revelations recently. A Sex change was not one of them. I do hope those of a narrow persuasion are not stereotyping - too dangerous ground for me.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Who cares anyway. The snow has finally arrived. I might even like it.

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There is absolutely no way you should give someone a kick when they need encouragement. It's counterproductive. The best advice I've had though even if I didn't like it at the time and I'm paying for this abuse is some brutal home truths for which I will always be grateful. As long as you can have a beer together at the end of the day it's all good.

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@fullenglish, You missed the part, 'this isnt an argument, its just a contradiction', ' no it isn't', ' yes it is', etc ad infinitum,,,,,

After all it is free

No I didn't.

@fullenglish, Very Happy

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I've got déjà vu, it's like the BASI/SB all over again with TTT contradicting herself from one day to the next. rolling eyes

Help!!

Are ESF really that bad?

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