 Poster: A snowHead
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Kids are generally apart from a few spoilt brats great to teach. Some times you need to have a word and they know they are misbehaving. Absolutely no need for any abuse. Most instructors would agree it is the parents who think they know best but know nothing about skiing or instructing who are the pain. Kids generally learn better than adults as they just get on with it whereas adults tend to analyse and assess which gets in the way with actually learning.
Racing is still skiing, just a higher form. The principles of posture, balance, movement, steering, tactics don't change from beginner to workd champion. The laws of physics don't change. Human biomechanics don't change. The pros are just a lot better at these fundamentals than beginners. It's a continuation of the the same stuff. Ligerty and racers changing to instructors talk about a lot of the same stuff as I'm being told. They are just a lot better at it. Hence I've seen international pro teams do snow plough turns on an easy slope. It's tougher to do the basics right at slow speed and if you can get them right at slow speed that carries through. The ET is only low level racing. The notion that racing has got nothing to do with learning to ski and instructing is just wrong. It's all the same stuff so the greater knowledge from training at a high level can be applied to lower levels. You can see the racers have great basics so good for beginners to copy.
Language is an issue for verbal learners but when you know the fundamentals skiing technique is basically the same regardless of nation so you know exactly what they are talking about. Helps also if you speak the lingo.
@Dave of the Marmottes,  at least someone knows enough about skiing to get it even if they don't agree.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Dave of the Marmottes,
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@stewart woodward, leave them to it. No issue just not something I'm personally interested in. Think he is getting better at same flaws and time for some honest basic brutal instruction if he wants to achieve his aim which I think he is capable of. You could of course comment if it was not for the fact that you have done race training and work for the ESF and therefore must by default know absolutely nothing about skiing and must be a useless instructor
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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In fact did I not see that he has some instruction from a race trained ESF instructor? Maybe that is why the same fundamental flaws persist or maybe sometimes it really is down to the customer rather than the instructor 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@TTT Race training this... race training that... Irrelevant to the majority (as you are keen to point out, we're not worthy).
From the OP
| snowshoe wrote: |
Does anybody have experience with ESF for little ones |
Since this was the point of the thread, and probably 90%+ of ESF instructees are small children, put in ESF lessons by their parents
A) because its cheaper than a nanny in resort.
B) in the hope that their sprogs might one day be able to ski with them.
The ESF business model is glorified childminding  They might have some great race instructors who teach 0.1% of their instructees but that isn't what defines them as an organisation or pays their bills.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Mon 29-12-14 13:03; edited 1 time in total
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| TTT wrote: |
| Racing is still skiing, just a higher form. The principles of posture, balance, movement, steering, tactics don't change from beginner to workd champion. The laws of physics don't change. Human biomechanics don't change. The pros are just a lot better at these fundamentals than beginners. It's a continuation of the the same stuff. |
I don't think anyone disagrees with any of this. However the ability to execute this bears no correlation to the ability to identify for each person the best way to transfer that knowledge and equally as important to motivate the person being taught.
I'm not sure why you think I'm being xenophobic. One of the best lessons I ever had was a day in the back-country with a French instructor (but not ESF). Just because I don't think the ESF is a great provider of ski education does not make me a xenophobe. In fact many Brits work for the ESF.
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I've seen race trained instructors with kids as well and they are brilliant and who lower level instructors choose to use for their kids. I agree a lot of instructing is glorified child minding but kids tend to learn by playing and copying and I've seen them learn to carve just by following an ex-racer where as a lower level instructor may be able to demo a carve for an exam but it is not a natural part of their skiing. The knowledge and skills are transferable to all levels.
I do totally agree that you need the teaching skills as well as the technical knowledge and skills. That is why ex racers have to go through instructor training and why race training is just one part of instructor training. But you do still the technical knowledge, skills, observation and experience that a professional training gives you. The French view ski instructing as a teaching qualification like any other. I don't think many parents would be happy to send their kids to school to have an amateur teacher with very limited ability, training and experience doing it as a past time for fun, and apres ski. It really is a bizarre attitude which demonstrates the lack of understanding of skiing and ski instruction. Teaching is best done by trained professionals rather than amateurs looking for an experience. Of course there are still good and bad teachers everywhere as we all know.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Assuming that you need to be a diplome d'etat (sorry CBA with accents on phone) the French instructors will have followed a fairly exacting syllabus including competitive exams if it's anything like my other sport. Moniteur less exacting diplome d'etat levels 2 and 3 is rock hard in other sports. You'll get the odd one that's sick of it, but it is very much a profession like being a lawyer, judge or dentist.
Speaking decent French really helped me get the most out of my lessons. Verbal learner with tendency to over analyse.
Some parents want glorified childminding. Their call. By the time any of my kids get to the point of skiing (while off ATM... as none born yet) we will have to decide between ESF having trained kid to cope in French and warned them that they need to be big and brave! or finding the extra money for non-ESF lessons. Given that I hope to speak French at home a fair amount, I hope they will be able to cope with French classes at least..
The French education system in general is far more sink or swim than the UK one, is it surprising that ski instruction works in a similar way?
My uni experience was massive drop out levels, expected to keep up, no handouts, small group teaching of 20 odd, and lecturers trying to wean the French kids off taking dictation rather than notes by going too fast for dictation to be possible.
France isn't the UK, in many ways it's more different than it initially seems!
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@Randomsabreur, a voice in the wilderness - I think a lot of it does come down to language and culture.
I certainly appreciated the ex racer training today - low viz, large sheet ice patches, bumped up - no way would have been able to cope without top quality training and fairly clear that most holiday skiers could not cope with conditions as hardly saw anyone despite being a peak holiday week but could still have a good ski because of training when others gave up. It costs no more than the large operations because you are not paying for the overheads of a large operation.
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