Are ESF really that bad?

A snowHead

I just love @TTT, who manages to patronise at levels rarely seen on an Internet forum and that's saying something indeed

A snowHead

No where have I said that an instructor should not understand the customer needs. Quite the reverse. Just that a typical customer will not have enough knowledge to know what is best for them. No where have I said that being a good skier necessarily makes someone a good instructor. However the prevailing view on here seems to be that an amateur who can't ski very well makes a better instructor than a professionally trained instructor. If you haven't learnt to ski well yourself and can't demonstrate it yourself then you can't teach it very well. It is absurd and is reliant on gullible customers. There is a lot better value out there to be had.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

@dsoutar, I think you will find you are actually patronising yourself with some truly absurd comments. Just surreal. wink

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@irie, no contradictions. You just need to try actually reading what is written which you very clearly have just stated you haven't but I'm sure you are just trolling wink

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@agw, Someone please tell me they are just parodying the little England daily mail attitudes because it is hilarious otherwise it is distinctly worrying.

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@TTT,

After all it is free

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Anyone got a spare plot lying around? TTT appears to have lost hers.

Anyway - back OT.

I think @Jonny Jones had it upthread somewhere, to summarise -

There are sufficient anecdotes of indifferent instruction from the ESF in some resorts for a prospective client to do some checking before booking lessons with them.
All the more so if you are putting your children in group lessons.

I have had precisely one lesson with an ESF instructor (private, shared with two others) and he was very good. Listened to what we wanted, taught us some new stuff, pushed us a bit, plus he was a nice guy.
This has very little do with speed tests, alleged restrictive practices or Simon Butler.

And, for what it's worth (and even less relevant to the OP's question) - I'm not English and I hold the Daily Mail in contempt.

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Yep sure good and bad at the ESF just as there are at Brit ski schools so worth checking and experimenting to see what best for you. My experience is that there is a strong correlation between the standard of skiing and the standard of instruction as if someone has trained to a higher level they know a lot more about skiing. Seeing the standard of skiing of some brit ski operations it is surprising that people go with them. I would avoid some of the brit ski schools as much as I would be careful about using ESF. Personnel recommendations from well trained skiers who have wide experience have given me the best tips on who to go with and who not. Generally the smaller operations are better.

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Come on folks, it's time we all realised that as usual @TTT is right and everyone else is wrong

@dsoutar, you are just on the wind up again. In summary Good and bad everywhere. Someone who has more training is likely to be a better instructor. Customers don't always know best. Shop around and get advice. That is just standard commonsense for anyone unless you have got your head stuck in the xenophobic sand.

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Not confused at all. I know the difference as I have done both. The answer is of course both. You can't tell someone how to do something if you don't know how to do it yourself. Every national ski instructor training system involves learning to ski well and teach. Some countries have a lot more serious approach to training where as brits tend to have a more amateur approach to things. It's a different culture and therefore brits find it hard to understand as is clearly demonstrated by this message board. I do understand where people are coming from as I use to have similar experiences and similar views on some of these things. But I have learnt from having a range of different instructing experiences and that has changed my views.

A snowHead

I don't buy into he generalisation that someone has had had more training is going to be a better instructor. Up to a certain point, maybe but not to extreme levels. And indeed why should this be the case for skiing and no other activity ?

I know a few people who instruct and their approach is that if the client / pupil hasn't improved then generally (although there will always be exceptions) they regard themselves (i.e the instructor) as having failed and not the client. TTT's posts above suggest they feel otherwise. I personally have been taught by instructors who would never in a month of Sundays consider themselves having failed if the client didn't improve.

In addition, instructors need to be able to apply a multitude of instructional techniques especially in groups as there is no one size fits all method. Having an instruct by numbers approach will quickly highlight an inferior instructor and I frequently hear about instructors using exactly this approach. Thank goodness these people don't work in schools. These observations aren't exclusive to ESF or indeed France but they do relate to ESF; that's after all what this thread is about. I think the ESF issue is that it is too inflexible a beast. I can't comment on ESF teaching policy but I guess it follows a similar pattern across franchises and doesn't allow for a more nimble approach to teaching

A snowHead

Instructor and student sharing at least a near native language helps a lot for verbal learners, less so for kinaesthetic and visual learners. Kids are often visual learners for physical skills so made need less language sophistication than many adults.

For verbal learners common cultural references also help.

I've enjoyed my ESF lessons up to now but speak fluent French and have been coached to a high level in a different sport in both French and English. I also respond best to boot up backside when being wet - OH discovered that the best way to get me to let go and ski fluently is to be at some risk of an expensive taxi home...

I can see that the general ESF way wouldn't suit everyone - a bit like the stereotypical scary riding instructor doesn't suit everyone.

Given that part of the reason for ski school before OH and I were compatible enough in our skiing tastes was giving me a group to ski with while OH went and played on the blacks it served its purpose well. Now I'm happy to play on most blacks so we just ski

Now, we'd probably do a shared private with a native English speaker (Scotland?) as OH's French is very limited for technical stuff...

For us, skiing is a means of getting around the mountains rather than a sport to get technically good at, my limiting factor is still ankle flexion and dealing with my irrational fear of heights, his is probably me and boots that are slightly too big.

Would rather ski every year as our one expensive holiday than spend more getting lessons and not be able to go every year. We aren't a hazard to those around us, and always ski within our ability to stop.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

I don't know WTF is going on in this thread (or the point of it), but TTT gets the prize for Wind-Up Merchant of the Year Laughing

Chapeau Sir/Madam snowHead

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To be able to race and coach racing you have to have a far greater knowledge of skiing, and excellent observation and coaching skills. Basically I get a very watered down version of the approach that is used with the very best skiers in the world so it is difficult to argue with the approach or the fact that it has been more effective than British instruction. It is incredible ignorant and arrogant to think that brits know more about ski instruction than the major ski nations. Again ET is not an extreme level - it is just a good club skier. People only think that it is such a big deal because the general standard of Brit skiing is understandably a lot lower than people who grew up in the mountains.

Instruction is a two way process. We talk a lot about taking responsibility for your own development and progress. I have to do it, the instructor can't do it for me. I find you generally get out of instruction what you put in so I have an ongoing coaching relationship with various international instructors.

I'm sure you make some fair points about the ESF but the same goes for some of the well known brit ski schools who also have a very poor reputation in instructing circles so I think it is an issue of size rather than nationality because the French system does produce excellent skiers.

The problem on all these topics is brits generally have poor foreign language skills so they don't understand the culture and therefore they don't understand that different countries have different perspectives. Brits can be cringingly embarrassingly ignorant and arrogant in their attitudes to other countries. I see it all the time at work and Brits lose out as a result. The attitude that Brits know more about ski instruction than the major skiing nations is a classic example of that attitude.

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@ALQ As you appear to be from the Surrey possy (sic) you are therefore sub-human and can p.iss right orf. wink

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Yep I agree a lot of the problems are that most Brits have poor language skills. Speaking the local language no doubt does help get the best out of an instructor with lots of local benefits. If your instructor does not know the area and can't speak the local language then you will miss out a lot on skiing, apres, discounts and services. I've no problem with people not taking lessons if they are safe, skiing does get better as you get better though. I do adapt to my instructor rather than expecting the instructor to adapt to me as I find I get most out of it as getting better at skiing is all about making adaptions.

@ALQ, many thanks. I'm glad my efforts are appreciated. I really don't feel worthy though as I feel the award should go collectively to the SB possy. I am though but a mere amateur compared to SB himself who has the ability to wee wee off whole countries and organisations to the extent that he gets jailed and kicked out. Very Happy

After all it is free

I do like the language auto correct on here Happy

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Well as nearly all holiday skiers are a variation of beginners and immediate skiers there does seem an unusual amount of opinion on ski instruction.

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Ha ha, wriggle wriggle, your mouth runs faster than your brain. Cool

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Hilarious how brit skiers over rate themselves. Does help explain the views on here. A good skier is ISIA level and an expert skier is full cert and above. Look from the lift during the holiday season and the vast majority are on skis but not skiing. Last holiday type trip the only people I could see who could ski were the instructors and Europa cup racers. I did not see anyone who knew what they were doing today. The S+R levels are comical consumer marketing. You need to start young and do a number of seasons to be any good at this game. The rest of us are just beginners and variations of immediates. Ask a trainer privately what they really think over a beer and they will say level 3 - they can ski - not many Brit skiers at that level. Most certainly not a sweeping generalisation to anyone who knows anything about skiing.

You know it makes sense.

Got to say that TTT is one tough cookie with her MO: Open mouth, Make fool of oneself, Boom get knocked down, Sulk for a bit, Shake off the shït, Come back for more having learnt nothing.

Respect TTT wink

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

How quick do you have to be to qualify as an immediate skier?

A snowHead

@irie, I get a lot of practice in my ski lessons wink

. Don't give it out if you can't take it in my book. I have learnt not to give it out to instructors on the slopes though - there is only ever going to be one winner there. They are fair game in the bar though. Happy

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Quicker than me. Accuracy not speed.

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Back to the thread..... I personally haven't had great experience with ESF, having seen an instructor in La Tania really be verbally abusive to a 7 year old boy, who was sobbing, thankfully my daughter was with a different company!

In Sainte Foy we had the following experience. http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=108823&highlight=esf

I did spend some time watching the Piou Piou group there too, as it was adjacent to where I would wait for friends to come down and whilst it was good with the confident little ones, who just got on with it, the ones that were upset and there can be a bit of a 'pain barrier' to be got through, were treated very poorly IMO. I work as a Teaching Assistant in a primary school and it bothered me a little to be honest and a few times I wanted to intervene (obviously didn't).

My daughter gained most of her skiing experience in Austria and there is a very different approach. personally, if I were you, I would book them in then retreat, but keep an eye on what was happening without them seeing you, popping back to check, as like other posters, I feel ESF do vary greatly from resort to resort.

That said, I wouldn't use them again.

Confused

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WTF is a possy? A French vagina?

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How did race coaching approaches get onto a thread about lessons for kids? I'd agree esf have some excellent race coaches and a gates session will likely get you one of them. And those coaches may well ask you to do things that seem nuts, but yes youd be well advised to do as they say, get your head down and give it a go, they do indeed usually know best. Esf also has some great holiday fun instructors, but unfortunately booking onto a lvl2\3 english-language group lesson is not at all guaranteed to get you one of those....as most people asking here are looking for the latter, the former is pretty much irrelevant, no?

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Are ESF really that bad?

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