 Poster: A snowHead
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Hi All
My friends/colleagues/family have traditionally taken a skiing holiday as a group in France.
This year we number appx 10-12 adults & kids of varying ability ranging from complete beginner up to advanced, 1 of this years group is also a BASI L1 Instructor in the UK.
We usually operate on a threadbare shoestring budget that doesn't stretch to cost of group instruction in resort. Although some of the hardcore do have the odd private lesson.
We usually split into two or three groups and the most experienced take the lead helping the less able/experienced and leading the groups due to local knowledge.
It's all very informal & some days eg poor vis or Pow then the novices go shopping or go sit in the hot tub.
We all usually take over a chalet and cater for ourselves. We even have spoof video reviews of an evening and the odd race in fancy dress etc.
Anyway the point is, what with all the hub hub over Simon Thingybob and ESF and the SCGB not doing resort guiding due to more arrests, we are now Really anxious that we may get skirted off to the Bastille.
Someone has suggested that we create a formal Ski Club as some of our group are friends of friends, so don't know each other's details and the more seasoned members are saying they're not too keen to lead the groups or even route find.
Does anyone else have similar concerns?
Can we just call ourselves a club, print membership cards and enjoy our usual bash or do we need to inform the resort authorities that we are visiting, will they require details or itinerary etc.
It would be such a shame for this to stop happening, please advise
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Nevica45, don't get too concerned about this, people ski around in groups all the time. That is what skiers do. French folks do it too.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@Nevica45, The only situation where the French authorities may intervene is where someone is giving instruction to a group of people for remuneration. If it's a group of friends with one person giving unpaid instruction that's fine.
Of course it's a moot point as to what exactly constitutes remuneration, if the group were to buy the "instructor" a chocolat chaud during a break or a beer in the evening as a thank you that might just about be permissible.... 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Nevica45, salient point in your post is that you operate on threadbare shoestring budget and self cater. So no one cares. you're not spending moolah so best solution (from resort point of view at least) is you holiday elsewhere
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@Nevica45, no, no need whatsoever to worry. Enjoy your holiday.
End. Of. Story.
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Assuming you actually rent the chalet, the resort, @peanuthead, has many (rents, lift passes, some on mountain refreshments, some private lessons, preumably some rentals) to welcome you with open French welcoming arms.
Also, I would humbly submit that you won't really look like instructors, will you?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Also, just how many gendarmes do you think are on the slopes?
Really, really, don't worry. At all.
Lord, I do hope no-one else is thinking this... (Being a rental business owner in France...  )
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@Nevica45, are you serious? 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@mooney058, it is clearly a pi$$take post
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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We were hassled by one of the lifties once in Tignes who thought one of our party might have been a covert instructor. He does coaching for other sports, so maybe he had the voice or something. The liftie looked pretty skeptical of his protestations of innocence, but let us go anyway. I think that's the only time I've seen or heard of this happening though.
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@under a new name, I sincerely hope not.
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You know it makes sense.
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My mate was asked for his Carte Pro on several occasions in Courchevel because he was leading a group of friends.
He was told had he not known their details then the Gendarmes would get involved. It definately tainted the trip.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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'Storm in a tea cup'
I wouldn't give it any more thought, we have travelled as a group of 5 families, total numbered 24 at one point & we traversed many a hill in the afternoons when the kids had finished ski school, hey you're on holiday with friends...tell them to piste off if anyone asks
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Poster: A snowHead
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Jesus, facepalm memes don't come big enough!!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@franzClammer, I would have got the Gendarmes involved myself. But how much leading was he doing and how much did his friends like making snakes? If it happened more than once, he was doing a pretty good imitation (at least to the uninitiated)... why would you?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@Nevica45, in France, also when you drive in a group (one car after another) you may also be fined, be careful ...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Nevica45, forming any sort of club is probably counter productive as that would suggest that you were deliberately trying to get round whatever ridiculousness the French might be up to. UK Clubs are not allowed to operate their own instructors. Mind you, apart from the UK banning, e.g. spanking porn, I don't think the French object to you forming a club to go off and do your own things* in the trees. Just don't damage the trees.
As long as no-ones getting remunerated you're fine. You're (I hate to be rude, but I'm going to be) more likely to be arrested for poor drills than anything else.
Really, really, it's not an issue. SB has been (depending on who you listen to) flaunting the rules/bravely earning a crust for many years, and with structural qualifications/legal issues surrounding the issues. Probbaly all intended to bring things for him to a head.
There will be literally thousands of people in France doing what you do this winter. And next. And the one after. ... and we can repeat the series going back in time just as happily.
None of whom will be arrested.
* reminds me of a hoary old joke, punchline being, "she's not dead, she's Eeengleesh!"
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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absolutely don't form a ski club or anything that looks remotely formal. It wouldn't help, anyway - if it was that simple Simon Thingummy could have done it. Just have your group having fun, as always. And don't worry about being taken off to the Bastille - the revolutionaries tore it down.
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@pam w, in any case, there's a really nice bar/restaurant at Bastille so it's not a complete hardship.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Alastair Pink, no, I think it's called the "Café de l'Industrie". Very pleasant. Some other nice bars around there too.
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@pam w, do not Inside-Out (suppose I ought to ask Rob/Scott) operate as a club with their own instructors in Tignes during November?
If not, I'm wondering how they get around (not arrested) without ISTD and ET ??
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@under a new name, I was referring to how the revolutionaries dealt with prisoners, I don't think they offered Marie Antoinette a coffee.... 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| under a new name wrote: |
| @Nevica45, forming any sort of club is probably counter productive as that would suggest that you were deliberately trying to get round whatever ridiculousness the French might be up to. !" |
ditto.
if stopped, which is highly unlikely but as seen by other posters, apparently possible
a) its only likely to be by miserable old non english speaking underworked ESF trade union types
in which case decline to be questioned.
In the case of persistence go to a lift and ask the lift company to request the Gendarmerie/Local Police. Tell them where they can find you at lunch or mutual independent spot like the Office de Tourisme. Decline to give your address ( ask him/her if he wants to burgle you?) but do give a name and UK mobile number - but only in exchange for all the details on his Carte Pro and matching French Identity Card. Tell him her that you will be making your own complaint to the Police, Office de Tourisme and his Syndicat - he/she is acting outside his rights. You are simply a group of holiday makers who have booked and are trying to enjoy a skiing holiday as a group of friends and family - you have no requirement to even disclose that to him/her . Some are better at map reading and some are better at washing up. My next stop would be the Maison de/L'office de Tourisme where i would ask the Director to join you on a conference call with the Daily Mail's News desk to use his right to reply ...
b) if its Gendarmerie you will be fine - you are a group of family and friends on a ski holiday FFS. If I was the BASI guy, I wouldn't even ski with that ID to further emphasis that I was "off-duty)
All of the above is fine PROVIDED no soft renumeration has occurred for instruction etc. A brand new club will only antagonise suspicion ( all skiers in the group whip out club cards when the question was only going to be have you seen a loose dog out here....)
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I believe they do, @Nevica45, but a. They're a bit more qualified/experienced than an L1 and b. I suspect they've invested quite a bit of time and money getting it to work.
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You know it makes sense.
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@under a new name, I didn't mean any disrespect, it just came to me when told "clubs" can't take their own instructors/coaches. IOS maybe more qualified but not more enough according to the rules as I see it  I don't see how financial investment can circumvent the rules unless it's via brown envelopes. Not suggesting this is the case.
Surely clubs or schools with members with disabilities could take specialist coaches?
So I'm still a bit confused. Yes we can get all arrogant if stopped, but it would be all a hassle & an unnecessary embarrassment.
We would prefer to do what the other clubs do eg IOS to not have to worry about being stopped in the first place.
I don't mean to labour the point, but I have to convince all concerned on the best course of action. We thought the club idea could give peace of mind.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Nevica45, don't worry, I didn't read any disrespect into what you wrote .
My opinion, as neither instructor, nor lawyer, but having followed this whole sorry tale for over 25 years is that you have nothing, whatsoever to worry about.
It's entirely up to you and your group to ignore my opinion or not.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@under a new name, ThankYou I really appreciate your input.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Running a club really wouldn't solve the problems because you are just a bunch of individual friends. There's no insurance cover for instructors/leaders. It's a completely different kettle of fish.
I wouldn't suggest you get arrogant. Just tell the truth and you should have nothing to worry about.
And definitely don't tell the resort about your arrangement, that would just be drawing attention to yourselves/
If some are worried and think forming a club would be better, let them make the enquiries and do all the google searching.
There was a snowheads thread recently about Austrian authorities clamping down on spurious "clubs" with ill-qualified "leaders".
Just don't go there.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@pam w, merci
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Simples if you see Jean Pierre Plod the leader immediately reverts to skiing like zee goat, ,JPP will immediately recognise him/her as eeenglish billy and leave you alone.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Nevica45 wrote: |
| We would prefer to do what the other clubs do eg IOS to not have to worry about being stopped in the first place. |
This time last year you might have been concerned about the Le Ski court case and asked how the chaps at The Club were getting away with it so as to emulate them. This year you are concerned by the SCGB case and asking about IOS. This time next year you might be concerned by the IOS case. The wind has changed in France and some have found to their surprise that they were sailing too close to it.
As friends on holiday, I would say you have nothing to fear. If you are a company operating a contrived business model to gain market advantage by avoiding regulation, I would say you should look into Bulgaria. If you're unsure, perhaps France generally isn't the best destination for you this season.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@Super Chap Great Bloke, how can you possibly be "unsure" of your status between those options?
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I suppose the group leader should avoid shouting out anything that may arouse suspicion. Shouting "follow me", like an ESF instructor will probably attract undue attention and should be avoided.
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@Kelskii, Since when do instructors shout ''Follow me'' - mine always shouted Your F'in useless, F'in flex, get you F'in weight forward, so on and so forth 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I will now give a fairly expert view:
Providing you do not have a professional masquerading as a "friend". Go for gold, that's what the French do and that's what the French want you to do. NOT EVEN AN ISSUE
Honest no problems. The problems were that in other cases the people arrested were acting commercially or were formally teaching over a period of time under the guise of a club activity.
Have a really great holiday and stop worrying. !
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@Nevica45, relax and enjoy your holiday. I think you are over reacting. Unless you are all dressed the same and looking like an official body, you really should not be concerned. Anyone anywhere is allowed to help there mates. Have a good holiday. 
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