 Poster: A snowHead
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Some Ski Schools publicly post how they pay their Instructors, while others are more circumspect. Does anyone have information on how ski schools pay their instructors? The following are publicly available online.
Copper Mountain- http://www.copperskiandrideschool.com/uploadedcontent/2013-14%20srs%20pay%20system%20updated%20on%2012.1.13.pdf
Certification Starting Pay Rate
Uncertified $10.00
PSIA/AASI Level 1: $11.00
PSIA/AASI Level 2: $12.00
PSIA/AASI Level 3: $15.00
PSIA/AASI TA, Examiner, etc. $20.00
Vail/Beaver Creek- http://skijob1.snow.com/BcSrsAssets/files/main/R&P09_11_12bodypages_draft2.pdf (from 2011-12, but virtually unchanged for 2014-15)
Entry Base Wage Rates (page 65)
Entry Rates
Certification/Credential Entry Base
Non-certified New Hire $9.95
Level 1 certified $10.95
Level 2 certified $12.95
Level 3 certified $14.95
Trainers Accreditation* $20.20
E1 Examiner* $21.19 E2 Examiner* $22.46
E3 Examiner* $24.28
Current ISIA Demo Team Member $25.27
Current PSIA Demo Team Member $26.27
Can anyone add to this list? How has pay at your resort changed over the years?
Here in the US at the Vail Resorts properties, starting Instructor pay has been frozen for many years despite lesson prices going up (now $850 to $915 for an All Day (6 hour) private at Vail and Beaver Creek.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Fairwages, in European resorts they pay the people who clean the apartments on changeover days more than those rates.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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About £9 p/h from our local authority in the UK.
European rates depend on the employer and deal.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Wow, that's shocking. Where does the rest of the money go? I'm guessing that insurance premiums are very high. Who's getting the rest?
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Do US instructors make much on tips?
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Switzerland (in my family's experience) between 20 to 40 USD an hour depending on qualification and school (some pay much better than others)
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| Maireadoconnor wrote: |
| Wow, that's shocking. Where does the rest of the money go? I'm guessing that insurance premiums are very high. Who's getting the rest? |
According to what they presented to us at our Vail season kick-off two weeks ago, 54.6% goes towards NET PROFIT CONTRIBUTION.
[img]https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/10616650_1004719086210017_8635852998896877496_n.jpg?oh=4d47025bcc0fd01e07ec05f24ec7fcca&oe=550641F5&__gda__=1427764546_45601ae6ca74228e450e9c8bb3152ca8r[/img]
There is an image of the exact breakdown on Fair Wages for Ski Instructors Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/pages/Fair-Wages-for-Ski-Instructors/897482290267031 but I am not exactly sure how to show it here.
https://www.facebook.com/897482290267031/photos/pb.897482290267031.-2207520000.1417457526./1004719086210017/?type=1&theater
@dobby, Some clients choose to TIP, but others don't (particularly if they come from a culture that doesn't tip much and/or they are new to skiing and incorrectly assume the Instructor makes more than 10-20% of their lesson revenue).
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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It is ridiculous when so much time and money is spent on qualifications.
Whistler is no better CSIA L2 starter gets CAD$13.95 an hour - with no guarantees. That is the starter as you will not get a job without at least a L2 qualification. Lessons are similar prices to Vail so just where does the money go ! No to mention there is no minimum hours guarantee either, Zero Hours contract. They do spread out the work but some months wage does not even cover housing.
Interestingly they are still looking for instructors this year. More about issues with VISAs than crud wages. In USA and Canada the Mountain has a Monopoly so basically it can do what it likes.
Now if you add in the equally crazy price for accommodation living in a ski town..... Tips are very low if any.
Now a waitress there is a well paid job, and you can ski all day too.
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you have to look beyond the wage though.
When I worked for Vail Resorts at Keystone my hourly rate was 'only' $12
But my accommodation was $250 a month all in - rent, bills, cable tv, internet
I could walk to work (20 mins) or catch the free staff bus.
Staff breakfast was $3
Lunch was free if you were working.
We regularly had staff dinner evenings run by the various departments for $5
Staff trips to other ski resorts were heavily subsidised.
So in any month
week 1 pay took care of accommodation
week 2 pay took care of food & drink
week 3 pay took care of play money
week 4 pay was saved
I did what I wanted to do in that season and still came away with savings.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Mike Pow, What year was that? Did you have a wife and kids at the time?
You make some valid points but at Vail, the cheap breakfasts are about once a month, you get a $18 lunch coupon (which covers your burger, but not enough to cover frys and drink) only when you are teaching all day group lessons, staff housing is very limited, instructors have to pay for and maintain their equipment (but we do get 20-30% off at Vail owned stores) and the starting hourly rate hasn't gone up in many years.
In the 1970s, an Instructors pay check equaled about half the cost of the lesson revenue they taught. Now it is about 10 to 20% with the resorts net profit over 54%.
I enjoy Instructing, but I wouldn't even think about trying to raise a family on what I make doing it, even with a full time summer job. Check these videos out to get an idea of what it is like working for Vail Resorts today https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCc2JCYHRcXkirVDO0woemQ
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Ski Instructors wages in Kirchberg were about 1100 euros per month after deductions for some accommodation charges. Free booze in some bars till 9 and cheap sometimes free meals up the mountain during the day if working
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| Fairwages wrote: |
@Mike Pow, What year was that? Did you have a wife and kids at the time?
You make some valid points but at Vail, the cheap breakfasts are about once a month, you get a $18 lunch coupon (which covers your burger, but not enough to cover frys and drink) only when you are teaching all day group lessons, staff housing is very limited, instructors have to pay for and maintain their equipment (but we do get 20-30% off at Vail owned stores) and the starting hourly rate hasn't gone up in many years.
In the 1970s, an Instructors pay check equaled about half the cost of the lesson revenue they taught. Now it is about 10 to 20% with the resorts net profit over 54%.
I enjoy Instructing, but I wouldn't even think about trying to raise a family on what I make doing it, even with a full time summer job. Check these videos out to get an idea of what it is like working for Vail Resorts today https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCc2JCYHRcXkirVDO0woemQ |
2005/06
No wife and kids. Still don't.
I think your premise is wrong.
You / we are in the luxury product market.
Think less about what the company makes and the difference between them and you.
Work out if you can make a living instructing supporting yourself and others and if you can fabulous.
And if you can't, jog on.
I can, and that's why I'm still instructing.
AND LOVING IT 
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You know it makes sense.
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@Mike Pow, I love your view, and its one I share
Quite simply, regardless to how hard we work, what qualifications we have etc etc WE CHOOSE the job we have! I did a degree in Civil Engineering because I wanted to and I knew there was a UK shortage and therefore I can demand more pay. Now I imagine in the US there is no shortage of enthusiastic skiers / boarders wanting to be instructors - the more there are, the more the competition for the jobs and the less they get paid. Simple fact and whilst people in the job may not like it - if you dont (as @Mike Pow, so brilliantly puts it) JOG ON.
Getting all the bits included that mike says sounds a good deal to me.
I have horses and the amount grooms get paid on top racing / competition yard is very low, why? Because they have accommodation, lessons, stable for their horse, etc etc etc - Its all part of the package. They come out with around £90/week in their pocket which I could earn in the time it takes me to squeeze out a particularly eggy fart, yet there are still loads of grooms flooding the sector so it cant be all that bad now can it. 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Mike Pow, I love instructing also. I can do it because I previously did well running a business and was able to save some money.
I took on this campaign after hearing a talented young instructor state something to the effect that guys like me were part of the reason the resorts get away with paying such poor wages (relative to the amount they charge the guests). While I think it is good that lots of people ski instruct for the passion/enjoyment rather than the $, I also think it is unfortunate that it becomes harder each year for young instructors to stick with it if they hope to raise a family.
With lesson prices doubling, the cost of everything going up and Vail Resorts stock up 5x since 2009, you don't see a problem with Keystone paying the same starting instructor salaries today that you got paid almost a decade ago?
Not sure if you have been to Japan or Italy, but there they let competing ski school and independent Instructors teach. What would be wrong with that model in Colorado?
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Poster: A snowHead
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| PaulC1984 wrote: |
Now I imagine in the US there is no shortage of enthusiastic skiers / boarders wanting to be instructors - the more there are, the more the competition for the jobs and the less they get paid. Simple fact and whilst people in the job may not like it - if you dont (as [b]@Mike Pow, so brilliantly puts it) JOG ON.
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The supply of certified instructors is not limitless.
At our Vail season Kick Off this year they offered us up to $1,000 for each certified Instructor friend we convinced to come to Vail from a non-Vail Resort. Take a look at this thread http://www.epicski.com/t/126452/jack...ds-instructors At 2013 Kick Off, they told us the reason they raised the lesson prices again was because Ski School regularly sells out. They could solve this problem by raising wages, but that would reduce their monopolistic profit margins.
Here is what one veteran Vail instructor emailed me: "I fully support what you are doing... this year since we can't hire enough and will put anyone out there with a pulse. Keep up the work and feel free to email me at this address if there is anything I can do."
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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HHmmm but if they are offering up $1000 for convincing friends to come, then the instructors are their own worst enemy. The only way pay will go up is if there is a real shortage. The incentive is not there because there is a massive shortage, but because the TO's / ski schools want to keep the market flooded to keep wages down I would assume
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@PaulC1984, Its a new campaign that they announced 2 weeks ago, so I am not sure if it is having any effect. I generally agree with what you are saying but also feel pay would go up if the two resorts in Vail Valley that get over 2.5 M skier visits a year had more than a single ski school employer.
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| Jake43 wrote: |
It is ridiculous when so much time and money is spent on qualifications.
Whistler is no better CSIA L2 starter gets CAD$13.95 an hour - with no guarantees. That is the starter as you will not get a job without at least a L2 qualification. Lessons are similar prices to Vail so just where does the money go ! No to mention there is no minimum hours guarantee either, Zero Hours contract. They do spread out the work but some months wage does not even cover housing.
Interestingly they are still looking for instructors this year. More about issues with VISAs than crud wages. In USA and Canada the Mountain has a Monopoly so basically it can do what it likes.
Now if you add in the equally crazy price for accommodation living in a ski town..... Tips are very low if any.
Now a waitress there is a well paid job, and you can ski all day too. |
The highest qualified instructor CSIA L4 CSCF L4 National Team Coach 20 years including head coach of Women's Speed Team gets $33.75 / hour. He get a pass (as does his wife), 50% discount on food when working plus extended medical coverage if he works enough days.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Fairwages wrote: |
| @PaulC1984, Its a new campaign that they announced 2 weeks ago, so I am not sure if it is having any effect. I generally agree with what you are saying but also feel pay would go up if the two resorts in Vail Valley that get over 2.5 M skier visits a year had more than a single ski school employer. |
Yes competition would indeed be good im sure, but again why do they still get the instructors?! With not knowing how the other US resorts are set up ski school wise, if it were that terrible in Vail, then why do they still get the staff?
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| Fairwages wrote: |
| PaulC1984 wrote: |
Now I imagine in the US there is no shortage of enthusiastic skiers / boarders wanting to be instructors - the more there are, the more the competition for the jobs and the less they get paid. Simple fact and whilst people in the job may not like it - if you dont (as [b]@Mike Pow, so brilliantly puts it) JOG ON.
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The supply of certified instructors is not limitless.
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Neither is the supply of visas for foreign instructors unfortunately. And there's a cause and effect there.
It was one factor in me not returning to Keystone and heading to Japan instead.
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| Kenny wrote: |
| Jake43 wrote: |
It is ridiculous when so much time and money is spent on qualifications.
Whistler is no better CSIA L2 starter gets CAD$13.95 an hour - with no guarantees. That is the starter as you will not get a job without at least a L2 qualification. Lessons are similar prices to Vail so just where does the money go ! No to mention there is no minimum hours guarantee either, Zero Hours contract. They do spread out the work but some months wage does not even cover housing.
Interestingly they are still looking for instructors this year. More about issues with VISAs than crud wages. In USA and Canada the Mountain has a Monopoly so basically it can do what it likes.
Now if you add in the equally crazy price for accommodation living in a ski town..... Tips are very low if any.
Now a waitress there is a well paid job, and you can ski all day too. |
The highest qualified instructor CSIA L4 CSCF L4 National Team Coach 20 years including head coach of Women's Speed Team gets $33.75 / hour. He get a pass (as does his wife), 50% discount on food when working plus extended medical coverage if he works enough days. |
Then become a waitress and ski for fun??!!
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@Kenny, Looks like Whistler charges $749 (I assume Canadian $) for an all day private, which is about $200 less than what Vail charges. Assuming that is where he works, then he gets about 30% of the private lesson fee. At Vail, it is very unusually for Instructors to get more than 20% and 10-15% is most common. I agree that certs help up your pay, but the majority of the lesson revenue still goes to ski school profits.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Fairwages wrote: |
With lesson prices doubling, the cost of everything going up and Vail Resorts stock up 5x since 2009, you don't see a problem with Keystone paying the same starting instructor salaries today that you got paid almost a decade ago? |
On principle no.
I'd have to look at how the cost of living has increased in that time to see if it would be still workable for me for example.
I had as much work as I wanted at Keystone. Even though I was in the children's division I had plenty of private request lessons for both children and adults which paid much more than my base wage.
Maybe having experience working in education and not running a business facilitated that.
And the free training I had from people like Annie Black was signifcant at the time and now in terms of my earning potential.
| Quote: |
| Not sure if you have been to Japan or Italy, but there they let competing ski school and independent Instructors teach. What would be wrong with that model in Colorado? |
I posted this on your TGR thread
I can only speak for the Niseko United ski area on Hokkaido, Japan.
The main reason there are so many independent snowsports schools able to operate is that when the rapid influx of non-Japanese customers happened the resorts wanted no part of it.
They were afraid and unwilling to invest the time and money needed to take control of providing instruction.
As a conseqence some very forward thinking individuals jumped through legal and bureaucratic hoops to
start up companies
legally employ Japanese and non-Japanese employees
do the visa applications
provide housing
provide work, lift pass and uniform (the usual stuff)
As non-Japanese people have become employed by the resort things have evolved.
Last season and this all instructors living in the area who instruct at Niseko United have to be accredited by the resort(s).
This involves showing certification, visa, insurance (either independently or as part of the school) and a fee of JPY 110,000 on top of the lift pass price of JPY 100,000
With all-day private lessons costing approx. JPY 50-60,000 this can be recouped by the independent companies over the course of the winter.
IMHO this is the first stage by Niseko United of identifying the size of the market, recognising the best instructors and ultimately moving towards eliminating the independents and provding everything themselves.
Much like the Vail example you are using.
For the independents they have to be thinking of exit strategies or innovative ways to operate otherwise they'll go the way of the dinosaur.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Tue 2-12-14 2:57; edited 2 times in total
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@PaulC1984, I now quite a few full time instructors who work in restaurants/bars at night. They might love teaching, but need a way to pay the bills in Vail.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Fairwages wrote: |
| @PaulC1984, I now quite a few full time instructors who work in restaurants/bars at night. They might love teaching, but need a way to pay the bills in Vail. |
Honest questions, no trolling.
1. Why are they there then?
2. Why did you get in to the industry?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Fairwages, 10-15% is not uncommon though. My wife is a very well qualified hairdresser for Wella Studios and she only gets a basic wage OR 15% of her weekly taking. In the construction industry we work out peoples rate based on their theoretical output, for example a labourer in construction I expect to turn over circa £5k worth of work for me a week, for £9.5/hr - Thats 9.5%, When I was employed as an engineer before starting my own business I was expected to turn over £40k worth of business a week, and my wage was effectively 2.4% of that.
Is that 10-15% after they have included free accommodation etc that mike mentions? If so its a very fair deal, if not id say it about average for what you'd expect in the UK labour market.
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I've been told that Hair Stylists typically make 40-50+% of their revenue and http://www.indeed.com/forum/job/hairstylist/much-do-hairstylist-get-paid/t5405 seems to back that up. Talking with an attorney friend, 35% of billable revenue is typical. What would you expect your net profit to be on the 5 K worth of work? If it is close the the 54.6% that the Vail Ski School made last year, then I think you should pay more.
| Mike Pow wrote: |
| Fairwages wrote: |
| @PaulC1984, I now quite a few full time instructors who work in restaurants/bars at night. They might love teaching, but need a way to pay the bills in Vail. |
Honest questions, no trolling.
1. Why are they there then?
2. Why did you get in to the industry? |
1. I can't speak for others, but I think many of them enjoy skiing/instructing, but found it didn't pay the bills
2. I've always enjoyed skiing and was encouraged by some instructors who thought I would be good. I enjoy instructing so I keep doing it even though I think I am underpaid.
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You know it makes sense.
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OK well we are talking UK here, and I suspect profit margins are very different
UK construction industry typically works on a profit margin of 2.5-10% - everybody assumes these multi billion pound projects have enormous margins - they simply dont these days due to competition, the recession, material costs.
Again, your reference to indeed.com re hair stylists is for the US. Here in the uk Hair dressers are usually paid minimum wage and are then on a bonus system if they hit a target - that target is then set so high that they rarely exceed it!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@PaulC1984, What's to stop a hair stylist from opening their own salon in the UK? Does the gov issue a local monopoly so that a single company owns all the salons in a given region?
A 2.5-10% profit margin is pretty normal...I think the S & P 500 is nearing record levels at 9.5% which makes the Vail Ski School margin of 54.6% all the more amazing. Remember, our clients still have to buy a lift ticket from the resort so material and other costs for the ski school are minimal. Also, instructors have to provide their own equipment, transportation to work and/or parking and typically only get paid $10-15 if they show up and don't get a lesson (but still have to check in throughout the day).
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Fairwages wrote: |
Honest questions, no trolling...
2. Why did you get in to the industry?
2. I've always enjoyed skiing and was encouraged by some instructors who thought I would be good. I enjoy instructing so I keep doing it even though I think I am underpaid. |
Fair enough.
It sounds like you live & own property in the area, enjoy instructing and have savings to cover what you consider to be poor wages.
With Vail being the only employer in this industry locally I can't fathom why you're making waves.
Do you have any skin in the game?
Are you looking to set up a ski school or just work solo?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| PaulC1984 wrote: |
| Kenny wrote: |
| Jake43 wrote: |
It is ridiculous when so much time and money is spent on qualifications.
Whistler is no better CSIA L2 starter gets CAD$13.95 an hour - with no guarantees. That is the starter as you will not get a job without at least a L2 qualification. Lessons are similar prices to Vail so just where does the money go ! No to mention there is no minimum hours guarantee either, Zero Hours contract. They do spread out the work but some months wage does not even cover housing.
Interestingly they are still looking for instructors this year. More about issues with VISAs than crud wages. In USA and Canada the Mountain has a Monopoly so basically it can do what it likes.
Now if you add in the equally crazy price for accommodation living in a ski town..... Tips are very low if any.
Now a waitress there is a well paid job, and you can ski all day too. |
The highest qualified instructor CSIA L4 CSCF L4 National Team Coach 20 years including head coach of Women's Speed Team gets $33.75 / hour. He get a pass (as does his wife), 50% discount on food when working plus extended medical coverage if he works enough days. |
Then become a waitress and ski for fun??!! |
I'll suggest it.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Regarding the US pay rates quoted above one point to make is this is generally (from my experience anyway) the 'starting rate'. ie the client is handed to the instructor 'on a plate'.
At Park City when I worked there ('99) the starting rate was similarly low, BUT, for every person in a group lesson there were a few $s extra, private lessons (non-request) paid more again, and request privates paid about double the base rate. In other words the system is set up to encourage instructors to build up their own client base - the guys that who had done this successfully were doing quite nicely ... For sure for first year recruits it was a struggle (but a fun season skiing Utah Pow! And a big lesson to learn coming from Scottish ski schools / Interski etc, where you just rock up and the clients magically appear...
NZ was exactly the same when I was there too. Base rates were low, but if you created a clientele it worked out OK...
But there is still a big gap from what the US resorts (in particular) charge to what the instructor gets, even on top top whack
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
But there is still a big gap from what the US resorts (in particular) charge to what the instructor gets, even on top top whack
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and also, it seems, a monopoly enables resorts to charge high prices for lessons, with no competition.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Fairwages wrote: |
[b]@PaulC1984[/b
A 2.5-10% profit margin is pretty normal...I think the S & P 500 is nearing record levels at 9.5% which makes the Vail Ski School margin of 54.6% all the more amazing. Remember, our clients still have to buy a lift ticket from the resort so material and other costs for the ski school are minimal. Also, instructors have to provide their own equipment, transportation to work and/or parking and typically only get paid $10-15 if they show up and don't get a lesson (but still have to check in throughout the day). |
I think you are reaching here. Vail resorts made 29 mm on 1.2 billion in revenues. That's a 2.5% net margin. Remember that practically every ski resort has gone bankrupt over the past 2 decades, that's why it's such a ridiculous monopoly. I don't want to sound unsympathetic, but we can choose our career, and there are intangibles, like skiing vail, that outsiders think has a value to it.
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@Fairwages, i think you're getting mixed up between Gross Profit and Return on Sales (ROS) - as no large company i know makes 54.6% after all costs - the ski school function might indeed might make that much(but that would just go into the pot offsetting less profitable parts of the business) but just looking at Vail Resorts last set of results they made $28.5m NET Income/Profit from revenues of $1.25B which gives a measly 2.2% ROS - with many blue chip companies aiming for a minimum of 6% ROS
Whilst i do sympathise with you as those wages do seem really low for what is a highly skilled job - as others have said i think the fact that it's such a sought after job i think the low pay comes with the territory i'm afraid.
Out of interest do you know how wages for Vail resorts compare to other local resorts?
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| Atomic_Mick wrote: |
Whilst i do sympathise with you as those wages do seem really low for what is a highly skilled job - as others have said i think the fact that it's such a sought after job i think the low pay comes with the territory i'm afraid.
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Ah but is it any more - note Vail and Whistler still are short staffed. To name two mentioned above as still having vacancies. So maybe the worm has turned and supply and demand will kick in to provide a sensible rate. Though there were loads of people wanting to go back to Whistler but could not get a visa under the Governments new scheme.
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In my experience there are three critical stages as an instructor
18-25 years of age
Typically raw and inexperienced. Pay rate is comensurate with experience.
The ones that get that taking certs and working on the teaching and customer service side of things start earning some nice money.
At that age money is to be spent and enjoyed and there's a greater tolerance for shared housing etc.
At some stage most leave the profession to join 'the real world'.
45 years of age and older
May or may not have taught previously (see above).
Passionate skiers.
Made some great money in their chosen profession but hate it.
Decide to make a career change.
Get certed or renew certification.
Move to one of the towns they previously vacationed at and start on lowest pay grade.
Surprised that their instructor pay doesn't go as far as their corporate holiday money and get disgruntled.
25-45 years of age
Never left. Lifers. Fully certed. Got a healthy customer base. Making good money. Living the dream.
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Came to the profession at this age because they couldn't afford to take as many holidays as their wage and time off would allow. Tried to get as well certified as they want / need / can manage.
Understand the struggle most people make to afford skiing. Got a healthy customer base. Making good money. Living the dream.
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I'm in the last group. Started skiing at 27. Got first certification at 36. Been at it ever since (with a small break from teaching for family reasons).
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Redwine, @Atomic_Mick, Yes, Vail's stated earnings were only 28.5 M, but lots of financial manipulation goes into those numbers with the business having 3 distinct part- Mountain, Lodging and Real Estate. A much better measure of the businesses profitability is EBITDA which was over $270 M. On a cash flow basis, the company is much more profitable than stated earnings suggest which is why it has a P/E of over 100 and can afford to pay out dividends of over $60/yr and CEO comp of $5 M
It's true the Ski School is not a stand alone business, but Vail makes money on lift tickets ($138/day last Christmas), food, lodging, etc. I know 54.6% sounds very high, but this is the "net contribution margin" that the Ski School sups presented to us. They call it "contribution" but if you look at https://www.facebook.com/897482290267031/photos/pb.897482290267031.-2207520000.1417535205./1004719086210017/?type=1&theater you'll see it is net Ski School profit that goes into the companies general coffers for whatever they choose.
A VR press release- http://investors.vailresorts.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=832299
Katz continued, "Further demonstrating our continued commitment to return capital to our stockholders, I am pleased to announce that the Board of Directors has decided to increase our quarterly dividend by 100% and declared a quarterly cash dividend on Vail Resorts' common stock of $0.4150 per share, payable on April 16, 2014 to stockholders of record on April 1, 2014. The increase in our dividend demonstrates our confidence in our consistent and strong free cash flow generation and the stability of our business model, despite dramatic weather." Katz added, "Our balance sheet remains very strong. We ended the quarter with $205.3 million of cash on hand and no borrowings under the revolver component of our senior credit facility and our Net Debt was 2.6 times trailing twelve months Total Reported EBITDA."
@Mike Pow, You're obviously a smart guy and have summed things up pretty well. Yes, good instructors who started 10-20 years ago and went through the full cert process at a place like Vail at $10/hr are making $18-$25 now (plus tips if they have focused in on that type of client). The problem is that a $10 starting wage now buys less than the $10 starting wage did 10-20 years ago and $20/hr 10 years from now will likely buy less than it does today. The fact that starting wages haven't risen in many years makes it harder for young instructors to make it today than it was for young instructors who started 10-30 years ago. Lesson prices have gone up every year, why not starting salaries?
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| offpisteskiing wrote: |
Regarding the US pay rates quoted above one point to make is this is generally (from my experience anyway) the 'starting rate'. ie the client is handed to the instructor 'on a plate'.
At Park City when I worked there ('99) the starting rate was similarly low, BUT, for every person in a group lesson there were a few $s extra, private lessons (non-request) paid more again, and request privates paid about double the base rate. In other words the system is set up to encourage instructors to build up their own client base - the guys that who had done this successfully were doing quite nicely ... For sure for first year recruits it was a struggle (but a fun season skiing Utah Pow! And a big lesson to learn coming from Scottish ski schools / Interski etc, where you just rock up and the clients magically appear...
NZ was exactly the same when I was there too. Base rates were low, but if you created a clientele it worked out OK...
But there is still a big gap from what the US resorts (in particular) charge to what the instructor gets, even on top top whack |
Things are likely relatively worse in Park City now than 15 years ago. If you look at Copper's you will see:
request private pay 150% base rate, not 200%
No student count pay
$4 per return student
http://www.copperskiandrideschool.com/uploadedcontent/2013-14%20srs%20pay%20system%20updated%20on%2012.1.13.pdf
At Vail it is more complicated:
request private pay is $6/hr above base rate (so about 130 to 160% of base rate)
$7.50 for a student who returns the next day (but 0 if they skip a day)
Student count pay depends on product
Group Lesson Additional Student Pay
Product Student Pay Adult Alpine All Day Class & First Time Series $13 @ 8th Student
Adult SB All Day Class & First Time Series $13 @ 6th Student
1/2 Day Class $4 @ 1st Student
7+ All Day Alpine Class $13 @ 9th Student
7+ All Day SB Class $13 @ 6th Student
3-6 All Day & 1/2 Day Class $12 flat rate + $12 @ 7th student
Teen All Day $13 @ 9th Student
Ultimate 4 $5 @ 1st Student
Nordic All Day & 1/2 Day Class $4 @ 1st Student
Diversity Lessons $4 @ 4th student
Half Day Local $4 @ 2nd student
Form Your Own Group $4 @ 5th student
Specialty Products Student Pay Her Turn & Women’s Programs $4 @ 4th student
Hyatt Technique Week $4 @ 4th student
Les Streeter $4 @ 6th student
Master Camps $4 @ 6th student
Pepi’s Wedel Weeks $4 @ 4th student
Beavo/Devo/High Rockies/Eagle Schools $4 @ 5th student
Feldenkrais $4 @ 4th student
Sonnenalp Guide Program $4 @ 2nd student
http://skijob1.snow.com/BcSrsAssets/files/main/R&P09_11_12bodypages_draft2.pdf
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FAQ
