Salzburgerland to Clamp Down on 'Illegal' Ski Instructors

A snowHead

"Salzburg ski schools are gearing up against "illegal" foreign competition. To be targeted include tour operators who offer under the guise of a charitable ski club lessons."

I wonder who that could be...

http://www.salzburg.com/nachrichten/salzburg/wirtschaft/sn/artikel/skischulen-ruesten-sich-gegen-illegale-konkurrenz-129497/

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A snowHead

Not aware of any UK TO offering that unless this is more of the ski hosting related issue surfacing

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

SKGB operate in Zell am See.

There is a problem with fake clubs being set up for school touring groups.
This always happens around peak school holiday times and fills the pistes with some very dangerously lead groups. Many of the 'teachers' have no idea how to teach or behave with a group on the piste.
These will be the ones all gathered in a blind spot or at a run out etc... etc...

I think this is more the reason for the inspectors.
There are many 'group' TO's that this is aimed at.

Local competition is pretty huge out here. Radstadt is a small mountain with 3 schools all competing for custom.

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Looking out of my window there is no skiing in Zell am See today or any time too soon....due to no snow;-)

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

I wonder where this is going to lead, have they all been watching what is happening in France. Puzzled

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Not surprised, Salzburgerland have previous for silly decisions, such as the ban on intra day bashing of slopes all because some unfortunate skied into one and got himself killed. Has probably caused several thousand extra injuries a year on blue runs that become mogul fields all because one person didn't see a ten ton red tank with flashing lights and beepers.

If they use it to stop rip off merchants fine and well but more likely they are worried that someone has actually taught someone to ski (certainly won't be a local instructor) and horror of horrors they won't need more instruction every trip.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

I have seen these groups on the slopes and they are clearly clueless as @flangesax, says. This is not stopping genuine clubs just cowboys who don't know what they are doing - good commonsense.

As for bumps there are nature's natural speed controllers and nature's way of telling you need some lessons to learn how to ski if you can't handle them. They are also great fun so why get rid of them?

After all it is free

@pam w, Why? If you can't see them get your eyes tested Shocked

@TTT, Fair point and FWIW I agree. I'm not suggesting all runs should be bashed but Zell am See, for example, used to bash the main learner pistes at least once in the day which kept the bumps under control for those who didn't need or want the additional challenge. As long as the right pistes are in the 'right' condition for all levels of skier then everyone is happy and, at least should be, safer?

Friends of mine are neighbours to one of the local hospital doctors and they have stats that back up a rise in 'typical' injuries since they stopped bashing in the day.

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This could be aimed at German Ski Clubs.

Hundreds of German Ski Clubs invade Austria at the weekends . Obviously a fair amount of coaching goes on with it as well. My guess is they will be checking the credentials of anyone seen to be teaching.

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@robboj, as ever I'd agree compromise in all things. ZaS tends to be a bit of a less experienced holiday skier resort and avoiding the bodies scattered everywhere on the home run at the end of the day can be more challenging than the bumps when I skied there. Where bumps can be good is slowing down the scary out of control straight line bombers who are not as in control as they think.

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@flangesax, I posted a while ago on another thread about the SCGB having replaced all the usual long term guides at ZamS with new faces. All the usual suspects, the Tarquin Butler-Fuddington types. I speculated then that they would all be the favoured ones freshly out of work in France and getting the gig elsewhere at the expense of folks who'd been guiding there for years and knew the place and the contacts well. Hell mend them if this comes back to bite them on the a*se

@TTT, Tell us about it! I've had relative beginners in my party for the last few years and have spent a lot of time on those slopes picking various folks up again. Perhaps thus why I've seen the worst of it. The upper bit of the blue down to mittelstation would rival an Olympic moguls course by days end.

@stanton, Will be interesting to see how far they go. Would anyone just basically helping a less experienced friend be likely to be pulled up? Hopefully not but give someone a badge and a hi-vis vest and anything's possible?

You know it makes sense.

@robboj, I don't like piste bashers around during the day for various reasons, the most immediate being that I ski with small kids quite often and they are absolutely freaked by them, flashing and squeaking. Also, I see no reason at all why skiers shouldn't learn to cope with the churning that goes on during a normal ski day.

Pisteurs put safety stuff on trees, lift pylons and other hazards, mark specific problems (eg a hole, or a patch of ice) with poles, and crossed poles are routinely used if there is an injured party. Drops off the side of the piste will be netted off and rocky slopes which could shed stones onto the piste are often covered in netting. Piste cross roads and the approaches to lifts often have "slow" signs and where pistes cross pedestrian paths both have safety warnings. Why do that and allow lethal great machines to roar around?

I could see and hear clearly if there were a helicopter landing and taking off, too, but would expect a big safety cordon to have been etablished around it and wouldn't expect that rich skiers with their own choppers would be allowed to be dropped on the piste to save them queuing with the plebs.

Our pistes (except the specific black ones which are left deliberately for some time) are all groomed every night. What more do people want?

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

I think this is aimed mainly at the schools market, both German and British mostly but also French, Dutch and Belgium groups are seen on Salzburgerland slopes.. The DSV allow PE teachers to "lead" groups but essentially they are actually "instructing" and more often than not, badly! UK operators like PGL often use good skiers as opposed to qualified BASI instructors in peak periods as well. The Austrians have always had a open attitude to allowing qualified instructors to work with their own clients on the slopes. It is considered good manners for the instructors &/or their team leader to introduce themselves to the head of the local ski school as well as the Tourist Office, but this seems to have fallen by the wayside recently, perhaps in case the qualifications are too closely inspected.

A snowHead

@pam w, My nephews loved them from a very young age? I know what the pisteurs do and they generally do it well, as they did carefully grooming slopes with folks on them for years until the incident in IIRC Filzmoos. Different people want different slopes, learners want and need well groomed blue slopes to build skills and confidence. Blooming great moguls don't help that one bit and just slow their learning down and hinder confidence. Still I suppose that means they'll need more lessons next year? Oh my? Well knock me down with a feather, there's a coincidence?!? rolling eyes

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

@robboj, they still bash in the day time around here.
2 years ago there was a fatality in Zauchensee concerning a basher and a child. Horrible accident.

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"Has probably caused several thousand extra injuries a year on blue runs that become mogul fields"

Interesting claim to have stats, would like to see, would be interested to know how they controlled for changes in median velocities with new skis, etc.

I assure you that nothing you will have encountered, anywhere, resembles an Olympic bumps field. Maybe the top of the "Wall" on a bad day.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

@robboj, most of the accidents I've read about were caused by drunks and idiots skiing down closed pistes in the dark and then looking surprised as they were decapitated by the safety wires the piste basher use to secure themselves as they work the steeper pistes.

Yes there are lots of "stories" going around about this or that poor 3/4/5/6 year old or sweet old lady/man with a Zimmer frame (WTF were THEY doing skiing Shocked

), who were mowed down by the boy racers charging up and down the slopes in their pistey beasties with total disregard for the public who have paid to ski! wink

The actual number of accidents is probably more than inversely proportional to the number stories being told! The piste bashers do come out in the day and they do groom any piste that the patrollers or instructors report as in need of such. Hence that "BEEP,BEEP, Beep" noise followed by the whoops of joy of those able to make first tracks on the velvet corduroy left behind!

BTW It is now a criminal offence in Austria to ski down the pistes after the official closure unless taking part in an agreed event (moonlight tour, sledging, etc) that the resort has organised. Toofy Grin

After all it is free

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@Elizabeth B, yes, saw it last season in Ski amadé region with several school groups from different companies. I was with the Obbmann of the SBSSV on one occasion and he pointed them out. He is also concerned with the number of school groups coming from outside Austria who are led by teachers who are actually teaching instead of supervising. That's not what was agreed with the Education ministry who oversee this aspect with the education ministries of the countries involved.

I said LIKE PGL (I used them because people recognise the type of organisation). I know Piggle now use local schools.

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Forget the piste-basher stuff it's not part of the thread!

This topic came up recently on the BASI members forum and brings up 2 arguments.

1 The Salzburg government ask for different rules to apply to foreigners that apply to locals, that is protectionism and until they change the law the Austrian government are paying huge fines to Europe because last year that is exactly what they were doing. (They have agreed to change the law by the way).

2 The Salzburg locals ask that the Salzburg government enforce the local laws to stop incoming tour companies having an unfair advantage because they are cheating.

There are very clear rules in Alpine nations that allow ski clubs to teach their members providing they are not doing so commercially. This is great because it's for the development of the sport. What is happening here is different and it is not a problem just in the Salzberg but in France and Italy too.

What happens is that a commercial tour company (often arriving by coach) changes it's name to end with "ski club" and employs low level "instructors" to teach it's clients. This is not only outside of local regulations but European regulations too, since those instructors and any other employees must be properly declared.

Yes they are badly organised but even if not, the locals cannot even start to compete. In other words it is the same protectionism but in reverse.

In Italy recently 60 polish instructors who were completely illegal were being run out of an apartment 40 kilometers away.

So 2 sides of the same argument - it puts the french in a bit of a different light now?

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@dave

If people can't handle the natural degradation of pistes during a single day they should either still be in lessons or finding easier terrain to ski. I don't want to be on a freshly groomed home run at the end of the day with a load of beyond tired blue run heroes careering into me because it's been flattened to flatter them.

Surely you are missing the point, the blues you speak of are where the lessons happen and it is only these that should be regroomed to accommodate beginners? Otherwise where do they learn?

You know it makes sense.

Greens don't get too mogulled - they're too flat- perfect for those that would rather have any element of natural challenge removed. Build your skills on a green then maybe ordinary half day moguls on a blue aren't too scary.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

I'm not TOO bad at skiing moguls, if rather slow, but the home run into St Anton really freaked me out a couple of years ago (although admittedly I wasn't very well at the time.) I don't think it's a good idea as a crowded home run for tired skiers, though I can see that a fast, flattened blue could be dangerous in a different way. Not sure what the answer is. Confused

@Samerberg Sue,

A snowHead

/\ Happy Valley & the Nasserein black are 2 of the worst runs in the world for too many people in one space with very questionable skilllevels. I don't think anyone could really enjoy them as home runs.

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Sorry (and this may not have been Salzburg). 2 different regions in Austria were treating
Incoming instructors more strictly than their own (ie unfair advantage to the locals). I am on my mobile and cannot research the details but a considered opinion was given against them by the European Commission. So after a period of time very large fines!

I did read up on all of this but it was in August. I hope this helps. All I was trying to do was give enough information to give an overview

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@Dave of the Marmottes, Jeez don't we all wish we were as good as you! are you really Franz Klammer? wink

Seriously though all I basically mean is there should be a piste suitable for everyone?

@Saint, Your newish so won't realise that threads tend to wander a bit on here, most of us like it that way. Its a kind of natural self moderating process where if no-one is interested the thread will just wither and end. Generally speaking it works.

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I'm not proclaiming I'm any great shakes just that I can't remember fresh corduroy regularly appearing in the afternoon at any time in my skiing lifetime (including formative skiing experiences in Scotland where any grooming was a bonus). Yet you're suggesting that today's learners are such delicate little flowers that they can't cope with snow left to do what traffic does to it.

I'm not against everyone having a crack, I'm just against further Disneyfication of skiing. What next big airbags at the bottom of the slope for when the little flowers are too tired to do their own braking

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Just a quick update on this.
I did some private teaching with the school the other week and my school now issues ID cards with all the school details on.
We always had to carry our qualification ID card with our pictures on but now we must also carry the card to say we are working with a particular school.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

The standard of skiing or ski instructors I've seen over the holiday period has been shockingly poor. Really should bring in TT or ISIA Std across Europe. A ski instructor should be able to ski themselves if they are demonstrating to others. The system does rely on gullible brit punters.

After all it is free

@TTT, Where have you been skiing?

There are a heck of a lot of one-season or 'fresh' instructors in the area for the new year week. It is the busiest time of the year and many are on their first week of tuition. Many will be Anwaerter so 2 mor courses and an off piste course before being ISIA. I don't know what TT is?...

As someone who's a member of the "Halsbury Travel Ski Club" in order to teach English school groups (I am a qualified instructor, fwiw) this does concern me a bit. What's happening to instructors they're stopping?

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@thedrewski, as long as the correct paper work is in place it should be fine.
I think a Ski Club has 3 weeks per season they are allowed to teach but Land Salzburg has to be notified first.
.......
Halfway through this post I did a bit of searching and found this:
http://www.salzburg.gv.at/informationsblatt_anzeige_schiunterricht_2014_-_englisch.pdf

These are pretty clear instructions of how to proceed and make sure everything is sorted.
The group leader must have an ISTD cert. (BASI 4 if you are on their route).
As long as there is an ISTD as a group leader then all other teachers must have a current Anwaerter equivalent (BASI L2).

Help!!

Salzburgerland to Clamp Down on 'Illegal' Ski Instructors

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