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TO Contracts and minimum wage?

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I agree on the overarching point @queen bodecia, that jobs / internships are about more than just wage, no doubt a lot of people here have taken a job which has earned them less because it gave them more in the long run. In my view working for a TO is exactly that, either it brings you 'life skills' of some description or it gives you the opportunity to become better at something you love. Either way i doubt anyone is doing it for the money.

Does that potentially mean the TO's can exploit that? Perhaps yes, is it necessarily a bad thing, unsure...
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@feef, but you could argue that the majority of people who take these 'jobs' do so for the 'experience'. You can't really make a career our of seasonal work, but you know that for one or two seasons it will be a fabulous experience.

Since most young people have to do an internship or apprenticeship these days either unpaid or well below the minimum wage in order to get a foothold on their careers, is this really vastly different?
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queen bodecia wrote:
@feef, but you could argue that the majority of people who take these 'jobs' do so for the 'experience'. You can't really make a career our of seasonal work, but you know that for one or two seasons it will be a fabulous experience.

Since most young people have to do an internship or apprenticeship these days either unpaid or well below the minimum wage in order to get a foothold on their careers, is this really vastly different?


Some do make a career out of it. They move into resort management then perhaps into summer resort operations and from there into UK based management.

Just as many don't make a career out of McDonald's, some do. The experience part is, IMHO, a perk as much as the skiing itself. I feel my job as a ski tech or cycle mechanic were valuable experiences too but I wouldn't have worked for less than minimum wage.
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but people are always gaining experience and learning more, ergo (according to your logic .@queen bodecia ), every job should be low paid because the experience you're having is sooo much more valuable - yada yada - sorry not buying it.

every employee is entitled to a fair wage - most apprenticeships offer a very fair wage, and breaks down in to different catergories a 19yo plus apprentice is still entitled to minimum wage see here https://www.gov.uk/national-minimum-wage-rates

and seeing as you must be at least 18 to work a season the minimum wage should apply

I don't really agree with unpaid internships either
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@Insiders, any first year apprentice, regardless of age, is only due £2.73/hr (£2.63/hr in Scotland, according to SBATC- Scottish Building Apprenticeship and Training Council)
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But an apprentice is in a 1-4 year scheme which includes time each week to attend a training course leading to a qualification. A seasonal job is NOT an apprenticeship so that doesn't apply. This is not about 'an experience' or an internship it's a job and regardless of whether the worker feels exploited or not the NMW laws are there to protect people from exploitation by unscrupulous employers.

It would seem that if the TO pays a rate which when accompanied by free accommodation they can achieve the uk minimum wage. They are then at liberty to charge the worker for food, etc. and it becomes difficult to prove that the employee is being exploited.
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I don't really agree with unpaid internships, but I do think that working as a seasonnaire is a little different.

My view tends to be that every employee is entitled to a 'fair wage', but a fair wage is one that is an appropriate reward for their labour. A 'fair wage' might be £1 an hour or it might be £1000 and hour. Putting a minimum numerical value on it is IMO a mistake. Is working for a TO exploitation? No, I really can't see it like that. Nobody is really in a position where they have to take a job as a seasonnaire so I think it's OK for the market to set the rate.

Comments suggesting that ski hire and ski pass can't be included because the TO gets them for free are irrelevant. First because they have a real value to the employee, and second because the TO doesn't get them for free in gets them in return for business. Accommodation for workers may be little more than a windowless cupboard, but we all know how much it costs to rent a windowless cupboard in the alps.
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Veering slightly off topic here, but unpaid internships are training positions. They aren't salaried because they are not 'work' as such, they are opportunities to gain relevant workplace training and experience, but are unlikely to be doing any chargeable work for their 'employer'.
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Ok so based on a uk company.

Working time directive: maximum 48 hours per week
Minimum wage:
18-20 £5.13 p/h
21+ £6.50

Weekly statistical wage £246.24 / £312
Average 6.8 hours per day based on 7 days

No skiing + little money, assuming no tax in the tax year.... Not sure it will stack up?

Expectation (ability to ski weekends or 2 full days) 37.5 hours per week (normal contract in uk)
£192.38 / 243.75 per week

Less money, more cost due to more spare time again assuming no tax. I may be wrong as I have no experience of living in a ski resort (indeed none even of self catering) but I can't see how the numbers stack up for any resort in the Alps?

Happy to be shouted down Puzzled
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Quote:

Accommodation for workers may be little more than a windowless cupboard, but we all know how much it costs to rent a windowless cupboard in the alps.



Exactly - and it's a lot less than the deductions made for it (to get the package to minimum wage)!
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Levi215 wrote:
Ok so based on a uk company.

Working time directive: maximum 48 hours per week
Minimum wage:
18-20 £5.13 p/h
21+ £6.50

Weekly statistical wage £246.24 / £312
Average 6.8 hours per day based on 7 days

No skiing + little money, assuming no tax in the tax year.... Not sure it will stack up?

Expectation (ability to ski weekends or 2 full days) 37.5 hours per week (normal contract in uk)
£192.38 / 243.75 per week

Less money, more cost due to more spare time again assuming no tax. I may be wrong as I have no experience of living in a ski resort (indeed none even of self catering) but I can't see how the numbers stack up for any resort in the Alps?

Happy to be shouted down Puzzled


Don't forget the maximum hours per week in the host country - TOs can base their pay on UK minimum wage & hours at official maximum of host. I know the French definitely check up on the hours worked.
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There is an interesting clause in the minimum wage law which says it doesn't matter if the accommodation charge is taken before pay or after pay when it is provided as part of the job. Other things like food/insurance/ski hire/lift pass have no impact on minimum wage. the TO can therefore pay at minimum wage including the nominal £5.08 per night accommodation allowance but then expect the employee to pay a weekly amount towards other costs.
A 19 yo working 48 hours a week and provided with 7 days accommodation could expect a weekly wage of £210.68 compared with the £75-£80 which appears to be normal this would mean that the other costs to be paid from wages amount to some £130 (or more) per week or something in the region of £20 per day. Is this a reasonable charge for the incidentals?

Lets assume an area season pass cost £750 and a set of equipment for the season another £500 (skis, boots and poles bought for the season), £150 return airfare and £100 for insurance assume 135 days in the season (4.5 months) and £10 a day for food then we get a deduction of £21 per day. (£147 per week). You can argue whether the TO actually pays this amount for the goods but that's what if might cost you if it wasn't provided.

Beginning to sound like a more reasonable deal in UK terms.

Any views?
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tarrantd wrote:
Lets assume an area season pass cost £750 and a set of equipment for the season another £500 (skis, boots and poles bought for the season), £150 return airfare and £100 for insurance assume 135 days in the season (4.5 months) and £10 a day for food then we get a deduction of £21 per day. (£147 per week). You can argue whether the TO actually pays this amount for the goods but that's what if might cost you if it wasn't provided.

Beginning to sound like a more reasonable deal in UK terms.

Any views?


I suppose the test would be someone who took up a job as a TO Rep but decided not to ski and/or had their own equipment and (for whatever reason) chose to buy their own pass.

If they were then paid more as those deductibles no longer applied, then you're right. If they were forced to pay for those things that they didn't need nor use, then it's not so clear cut
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@feef, perhaps, but at the same time if you paid out minimum wage only and said off you go, no-one could afford it. There is additional reduction in cost here that isn't factored in, the purchasing power of the TO and also the need for the resort to have staff means that the overall costs are reduced than that of an individual which isn't brought into the it is fair piece.

Would you not have to assume that a TO rep will ski / board and have the pass provided for them?
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Levi215 wrote:
@feef, perhaps, but at the same time if you paid out minimum wage only and said off you go, no-one could afford it.


You can EASILY live and ski a lot in the Alps on minimum wage. Seriously, I did for a long time (much on less actually as I wasn't working fulltime in winter), and I'm not all that much above it now!
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
clarky999 wrote:
Levi215 wrote:
@feef, perhaps, but at the same time if you paid out minimum wage only and said off you go, no-one could afford it.


You can EASILY live and ski a lot in the Alps on minimum wage. Seriously, I did for a long time (much on less actually as I wasn't working fulltime in winter), and I'm not all that much above it now!


Really? Uk minimum I'm talking about with associated setup costs
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I assume it's similar to Austria? Retail minimum wage is somewhere around €1150 per month after tax. I lived pretty comfortably in Innsbruck on €900 a month for a good while. Could ski minimum 3 days a week for 10 months a year, plus 1-2 half days. Plus 5 weeks holiday and public holiday.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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But isn't an employer obliged by law to provide tools and equipment necessary for an employee to conduct their duties?
When I have to stay long hours in the office then my employer pays for my cab. Or for books and any software I use at work (I'm from IT background).
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@wyspa, But unless the employee is actually a ski guide then neither kit nor pass count as essential to their job.
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@wyspa Many jobs require the worker to supply their own tools. In my last IT job I had to buy my own smartphone and the company retained the right to clear the memory. It won't be long before the same company expects the employee to provide their own laptop Wink

If you take minimum wage calculation including free accommodation then I think I could live on £210 a week as most of the other costs are up front and I'd only do the job if I could afford the up front costs. For many of these youngsters I suspect that the bank of mum and dad would finance most of the up front costs if the youngster had no savings. I spent 3 weeks in the alps a few years back and biggest cost was the apartment at 200 euros a week with that out of the equation and the rest paid up front I was able to live on less than £100 a week. A suitable shared apartment and I could have included accommodation in under £200 per week.

I also think that when factoring costs like lift pass and equipment etc. you have to measure that in value to the employee not cost to the employer. It's a bit like having a company car provided at a huge discount to the employer but the tax man charges you based on the list price that you would pay if you walked into the dealer!
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I think, like many snowheads discussions, this thread is circling around and will arrive at a different point to the reality.

The alpine countries generally are picking up on a number of issues. One of those, employing people in a country on non-local contract is being cracked down on generally. I think the Ryan air case, where Marseilles workers had been employed on Irish contracts was seen as a bit of a precedent.

What all the various news stories is pointing to is that the various authorities are catching up with the leisure industry. In future it will be irrelavant as to the UK legislation, it will be the local legislation that will need to be complied with.

i.e. staff working the season in France, Austria or switzerland will have to be employed on local contracts and adhere to the local rules and regulations. That's my understanding of it anyway.

Here's a suymbolic daily fail article:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2441765/Ryanair-fined-8-3m-employing-French-workers-Irish-contracts.html
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
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The key difference in the Ryanair case is that they were employing French folk, who lived locally, under an Irish contract on a point of law that's designed for 'secondment' i.e. for Irish employees working in France for a certain period of time.

While it has caused questions to be raised about other operations that work outside their 'home' country, it's not directly applicable to TO's as they are bringing UK workers from the UK to the foreign country for the duration. AIUI, the concept of secondment COULD be applied, but the grey area arises when they've never actually worked in the UK prior to being "seconded" to the foreign country, equally that the foreign location also doesn't have any locally contracted employees.
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