 Poster: A snowHead
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@Kruisler,that's my experience, on the couple of occasions we did the chalet holiday thing, the ski host usually doubled up as the resort rep. Ski Miquel's ski host is usually also the barperson in Serre Che.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
@Kenzie, If you read the comments above the consensus seems to be that Crystal are pretty good so I'm not sure where the 'that's Crystal' comment comes from.
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As to holiday experiences it shouldn't matter how Crystal dump on their recruits; many TOs tell their start of the season staff (quite truthfully) something along the lines of 'We've got a reserve list as long as your arm - if you don't make the grade you ARE dispensable'.
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Isn't this exactly the same as any job under the sun? If you don't make the grade of course you have to go. Where's the problem?
Also, in what way have Crystal 'dumped on their recruits'? If the job no longer exists what do you expect them to do? They even offered them compensation! |
'That's Crystal' refers to the thread - how they treat their staff.
"Same as any job under the sun"? How many jobs have you been in where you have been told there is a reserve list for your role - ie people on stand-by to replace you within a week?
The consensus may be that Crystal are OK if you are a holidaymaker, but the thread is about being a member of their in resort staff. Working a season is NOT a 5 month ski holiday.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Kenzie,
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"Same as any job under the sun"? How many jobs have you been in where you have been told there is a reserve list for your role - ie people on stand-by to replace you within a week?
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Whether you are explicitly told it or not few people are under an illusion otherwise. How often do you apply for a job where you are the only candidate? Dare I say that while it's not meant to be a five month holiday it's not a job people usually select for the career prospects, salary etc. In other words many people won't approach it with a full-on protestant work ethic. Consequently, it doesn't surprise or shock me that Crystal read their staff the riot act at the beginning of the season and to achieve the level of customer satisfaction that it would appear they do achieve then they need staff to perform well. Please understand I'm really not suggesting you are wrong in stating that Crystal treat their employees badly, you have far more knowledge of this that I do. I'm simply arguing that I can't see anything much wrong with how they appear to have behaved over the current issue raised by the OP, nor do I have a great issue with them warning staff that IF they don't come up to scratch then they will be sent home.
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| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
| How often do you apply for a job where you are the only candidate? |
That's not the same though is it..From what I can read those people were initially told they had a job, i.e. they applied, passed the interview/selection and got a job offer.. I.e. they were [ast the point of just being candidates..
I don't think there are many jobs where you get offered a position and then, (after possibly resigning from your previous post) can be told the offer is withdrawn (without some serious fault on one sode or the other).. or that the start date is postponed 3 months...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I would be mightily pissed off if I resigned from a position on the basis of receiving a job offer only to be later withdrawn or if I had turned down offers from other T/O's
Seems the T/O's all in for a hard season particularly with loss of guiding in France and Italy, changes in legislation which has led to closure of chalet programmes in Switzerland and Italy and poor early season snow.
May be an increase of weekend only reps to cover transfers and sale of ski pack items which I would think makes the difference between running at a profit or loss
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| Guyrhofen wrote: |
| Seems the T/O's all in for a hard season particularly with loss of guiding in France and Italy..................... |
I don't think many TOs are upset at all by not having to provide ski repping services in resort; they've not seen a drop in booking because of it as they're all in the same boat and they don't have to employ at least 1 team member per resort... so no loss of revenue yet a reduction on costs!
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| Kruisler wrote: |
| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
| How often do you apply for a job where you are the only candidate? |
That's not the same though is it..From what I can read those people were initially told they had a job, i.e. they applied, passed the interview/selection and got a job offer.. I.e. they were [ast the point of just being candidates..
I don't think there are many jobs where you get offered a position and then, (after possibly resigning from your previous post) can be told the offer is withdrawn (without some serious fault on one sode or the other).. or that the start date is postponed 3 months... |
My comment wasn't actually in connection with the current issue of offers being withdrawn before starting, it was in response to Kenzie's completely separate comment that Crystal staff are told that if they don't make the grade they will be replaced.
No, it doesn't often happen that people are offered jobs and then the offer is subsequently withdrawn before starting. But it does happen for a whole range of reasons, most common of which is that the job no longer exists. That seems to be the case with the Crystal jobs. Bearing in mind the guiding situation, what would you expect Crystal to do? How could Crystal have done better than they already have? Of course those people affected will be bitterly disappointed and may have turned down jobs with other TOs or other companies, but it doesn't sound like it's Crystal's fault.
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| marcellus wrote: |
| Guyrhofen wrote: |
| Seems the T/O's all in for a hard season particularly with loss of guiding in France and Italy..................... |
I don't think many TOs are upset at all by not having to provide ski repping services in resort; they've not seen a drop in booking because of it as they're all in the same boat and they don't have to employ at least 1 team member per resort... so no loss of revenue yet a reduction on costs! |
I'd imagine they are pretty ambivalent about it. Did they really employ that many full-time ski-hosts, and if so what was the ratio of hosts to total punters? I'd always assumed most hosts did a variety of other tasks as well. In Obergurgl for example I got the impression that Crystal probably had about 100 beds in the resort. One host to look after them is probably more than enough and the cost to the TO probably equates to £3 per head. The benefit to their bottom line would have been absolutely minuscule. On the other hand ski hosting is clearly a service that some punters find valuable/attractive. Let's not forget this is a service that they introduced as a no-cost freebie so they obviously feel their guests like it. If they really aren't fussed I can't see why the TO's would bothered fighting it in court.
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| thecramps wrote: |
CRYSTAL....... CRYSTAL. I'm sure someone must have had a good trip with them, but I have yet to meet one, so the fact they treat staff badly isn't a surprise.
Cause and effect? |
Load of rubbish, Ive worked 2 seasons with Crystal and been on many trips with them without any problems. Everyone i worked with enjoyed their season and had no issues at all.
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@foxtrotzulu,
As per my earlier comment my understanding was that guiding/hosting was an added duty rather than a full time one. If that is correct then this is unlikely to be the cause of all this. I am more inclined to believe the suggestion that Crystal "over hires" in expectation of people dropping out (which must happen quite a lot considering the typical rep candidate) and got caught out this year.
As for withdrawing a job offer on the basis that "it doesn't not exists enymore", it'd be very poor and you'd hope it doesn't happen much.. and it probably gets you liable for some compensation which might be why people have suggested that Cyrstal compensated those people.. remains to be seen what that compensation is..
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@sparkzter, thats the internet for you, by far and above negative comments will outweigh the positive.
But on to the negative 
I vowed never to go with crystal again after a 'finest' trip which had pretty poor standards of food (I think the poor guy was out of his depth which may not have been entirely of his own doing to be fair), accomodation which we had previously stayed in which had been remodled to fit another 4 people in and was way to small, not willing to get a stairgate despite it being a significant safety issue and ended with 14 hours in the airport with no communication from the reps, then a bus to an alternate airport for the 'last flight home' only to see other people boarding the flight we should have been on.
I could add further negatives a plenty, but in terms of positives had a pretty good one in 98 to Selva (despite on of the Young chalet hosts getting a bit mardy one evening and calling me immature), Our honeymoon to Vail when the rep wouldn't help or do anything to get out of the dark and dismal closet in 'The Lodge at Vail' (we did after Mrs A genuinely had a crying fit).
I am pretty sure that the majority of people are more than happy with their price, service and staff and the winjernet is wrong.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Kruisler,
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As for withdrawing a job offer on the basis that "it doesn't not exists enymore", it'd be very poor and you'd hope it doesn't happen much.. and it probably gets you liable for some compensation which might be why people have suggested that Cyrstal compensated those people.. remains to be seen what that compensation is..
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I can't quite see how it's 'very poor' as long as it's genuine. Businesses grow and contract. Opportunities open and close. People get taken on and made redundant. I totally agree in saying that I hope it doesn't happen much. I don't imagine it does because it's not in anyone's interest. As you point out, the nature of the job and the applicants means there will be a pretty significant drop out rate so it's hardly surprising that they take on more than necessary. Are they entitled to compensation? No, not as far as I can tell. Imagine you start a new job with a company in the UK and then 11 months later yopu get made redundant. It happens. AFAIK you aren't entitled to any redundancy if you've worked for less than two full years, so I can't believe you are entitled to anything for having worked zero days.
Out of interest, if someone accepts a job as a rep and then drops out the week before the season starts do we think they should be liable to pay compensation to Crystal?
As I said earlier on, it's VERY bad luck but not necessarily Crystals fault and I think their legal/moral obligations are extremely limited.
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Out of interest, if someone accepts a job as a rep and then drops out the week before the season starts do we think they should be liable to pay compensation to Crystal?
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Under those circumstances they lose their £100 bond, without payment of which they won't be given a contract in the first place. Crystal, on the other hand, are at liberty to withdraw your offer a week before you leave without giving you a bean.
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You know it makes sense.
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@Lizzard, You're right. legally I expect that's exactly how it stands. I wasn't familiar with the £100 bond until today, so on the basis outlined above I think Crystal would be legally obliged to return the £100 bond and morally obliged to give £100 compensation in addition.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@foxtrotzulu,
I think we'll have to disagree. Short of something pretty catastrophic I personally don't see how a company could formally offer someone a job and shortly after "realize" the job doesn't exist any more. To me that'd be either gross incompetence or awful/cynical practice.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@Kruisler, I would have thought that there were loads of reasons why this could happen. Fewer than expected bookings being the most obvious example. It's also quite possible as you(?) said that fewer people than usual have decided to drop out. There was something in the local news a while back about a supermarket cancelling their plans to open a store even after they had conducted staff interviews. Nobody is suggesting it's an ideal situation. Maybe factors outside Crystals control forced the change (e.g. situations like the ski hosting), maybe it's poor planning on their behalf. My question is how you think they should have reacted differently to the way they have?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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If anyone's interested, here is the original piece on the radio. It starts at 10.28
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04pss4l
The issue appears to have been over-hiring. Typically 1/3 of people drop out but this year very few have done. Hence the problem.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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We have used Crystal from 2000 uptil 2010 & have had some fantastic holidays with them, the main criteria being "whizz kids".
Used to stay in catered chalets, 1st one was Lavachet in Tignes Le Lac, next door to the Alpaka, which was brilliant, so much so we went there the following year, pity they sold it/didn't continue the rental.
Then went to Turquoise, La Plagne again great service & to be honest all the staff were really helpful, so we went again the following year & guess what, they let it go 
Used them again, different resorts, the last time 2010 we stayed at The Diva, Val Claret & TBH whilst the staff were ok, the hotel [food] was awful...buffet style, ruined what I/we believe was a fantastic formula [large group booking, 4/5 families at times], we loved choosing our evening meal at breakfast, served on a plate with wine 
So 2011 as we have 3 kids & the holiday cost for 5 adults at Feb 1/2 term was extortionate we drove & rented a great apartment just behind The Diva [the rest of the group went with Crystal & stayed at The Diva, not great reports from them.
Since then we have DIY & found it suits us as the kids are not kids anymore & we don't require childcare, guess it's all about specific requirements.
On the whole I would use them again as a last minute option [without kids]
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I know someone last year got all the way to Morzine, stayed in the accommodation the company were providing, then the head rep turned up and told them that half of them would not be needed and they would need to be out by the end of the week. Luckily for my mate he found another job and stayed for the season. I don't know the name of the company off the top of my head but will find out and name and shame.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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The whole recruitment game is a very risky strategy for a lot of tour operators. Firstly, the £100 security deposit really isn't that much of a disincentive to pull out at the last minute. The big tour ops get away with it as they have a decent reserve list built up. Smaller TOs struggle with this aspect. Also, it's fairly certain that during staff training there ill be some drop outs and/or some people getting fired. It happens year after year. In fact, part of training (especially for reps) is encouraging drinking on some nights in order to see who gets out of bed the next morning. No show and it's likely you'll be on the way back home.
Staff turnover is huge. In my last season as an RM for a chalet company I had a staff of 11. Within the first 5 or 6 weeks I'd sacked 4 and had 1 go home after 5 days in resort. And the profit percentages for the holiday game is so low that you can't just ramp up on extra staff.
It sounds like the numbers got screwed up this year somewhat, but having worked in the industry before I have some sympathy.
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| thecramps wrote: |
CRYSTAL....... CRYSTAL. I'm sure someone must have had a good trip with them, but I have yet to meet one, so the fact they treat staff badly isn't a surprise.
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I had a very good trip with them last year, my only gripe was the overly talkative/enthusiastic rep on the coach - i just wanted to sleep! We're booked again this year
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Well, exactly. The willing exploitation of these kids is what gets us our cheap ski holidays. We really are not in a position to point any fingers of blame.
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@Chris Bish, I was 36 when I did my first season with crystal, I was more than willing to be exploited as it meant I could ski 6 days a week!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Chris Bish, Hardly exploitation! I think we should give ourselves a huge round of applause for enabling all these kids to have a fabulous few months on the snow.
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| Kruisler wrote: |
@foxtrotzulu,
I think we'll have to disagree. Short of something pretty catastrophic I personally don't see how a company could formally offer someone a job and shortly after "realize" the job doesn't exist any more. To me that'd be either gross incompetence or awful/cynical practice. |
It happens all the time, even in large multi nationals. I have known people who have been offered roles, only for an organisational change and the offer was withdrawn.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Njathind's thread on repping in Rauris went awfully quiet. Wonder if they've still got the gig?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
Short of something pretty catastrophic I personally don't see how a company could formally offer someone a job and shortly after "realize" the job doesn't exist any more. To me that'd be either gross incompetence or awful/cynical practice.
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Gosh, such innocence. 
They deliberately over-recruit and expect people to drop out. Not enough dropouts = too many staff. I'm sure I said this earlier.
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You know it makes sense.
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I have travelled with Crystal many times and on several there has been the potential for a problem. However, credit to them, they have resolved my issues in a more than satisfactory manner.
I will always look to book with them in the first instance.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I've already heard of 2 who have been hopsitalised so repatriated to the UK and not even seen a tourist yet!
Of course they must over recruit knowing some just won't turn up on their 1st day, some won't make the grade in twrms of effort, some will get injured, some will get homesick the list of excuses of people quitting is endless!
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Poster: A snowHead
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@marcellus, what, this year? are they on their ski training weeks already?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@dobby, not really ski training, someone I knew did it last season and they spent most of the training weeks learning how to look after the chalets etc. But he told me he had a great season. Really enjoyed himself and it made a great break before going to Uni!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
I think we'll have to disagree. Short of something pretty catastrophic I personally don't see how a company could formally offer someone a job and shortly after "realize" the job doesn't exist any more. To me that'd be either gross incompetence or awful/cynical practice.
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Happened quite a bit actually with financial jobs jobs 2008ish - people who had job offers up to a year ahead e.g. for grad schemes and more senior positions off MBAs found there wasn't actually a job to go to when it was time to start.
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@kat.ryb, Out of interest, any idea what compensation they did/didn't get?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Crystal let down our ski group in 2010 after we had booked with them for many years. We've never used them since. I calculate they have lost about 60K of business from our group to date.
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| dobby wrote: |
| @marcellus, what, this year? are they on their ski training weeks already? |
A lot of the TOs get rheir teams out there from now(ish) so they learn how everything works and what to do.
This obviously leaves them with some spare time and they go on the Piste, in both senses of the double entendre!
Both the cases i've heard of were up the mountain with skis on!
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@marcellus, we had a rep who did her knee and hobbled around best she could to avoid being sent home - worked I think
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FAQ
