You like sliding on that ! I like skiing on that !
The skiers in that video were, in the deeper stuff, straingtlining it. I suspect this is why you, as a beginner, like it - no technique involved - no need to actually turn to control your speed.
The snow in the video is light and easily pushed around. This is not typical.
I expect this is why you are uncomfortable on a packed piste - you don't have the technique to pilot the skis, you use brute strength to get around, but it tires you out and frustrates when you cannot control direction and speed.
You are a beginner. There is no shame in that - we all were at some point in our skiing. Welcome to Skiing!
Even if you were to somehow hop on skis and be fully skilled with a variety of techniques in one week on a 300m vert mountain....you would still lack the time on skis to be anything more than a beginner.
Glad you are enjoying the mountains Keep it up, it just gets better.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Wed 26-11-14 14:40; edited 1 time in total
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@Ironmonkey : yes...the tree thing. Looks like Mt Cheeseman has no trees so you have no experience but they can be great fun. However, as in my previous post - you do need to be able to turn to get through them.
Give us a clue of how you grade yourself, try to be realistic (Like I said, we all start somewhere and the only shame is in not progressing). We will then subtract a level or two
When we know where you are, we can really help getting your skiing going. Have you seen Franzklammer's thread in bend ze Knees ? he has really progressed and we all have had great fun watching him doing it and I for one have learned stuff along the way too.
Mt Cheeseman looks like a nice area. However a European Alp it is not. A quick look at the google sat view shows lots of uniform scree off the ridgelines - so max 32 degrees. This is a respectable gradient, but no problems if it is wide and uniform.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Quote:
I suspect this is why you, as a beginner, like it - no technique involved - no need to actually turn to control your speed.
I expect this is why you are uncomfortable on a packed piste - you don't have the technique to pilot the skis, you use brute strength to get around, but it tires you out and frustrates when you cannot control direction and speed.
I dont think im 'that kind' of beginner. Turning to control speed easily is fundamental. I don't think you can even ski green runs (at least the green runs I've been in) without knowing how to, let alone intermediate runs. You still be in the childrens /magic carpet area.
And if that were true it wouldnt make sense that I would prefer ungroomed snow. Its even harder to turn!
Am I right in assuming that you are trying to plan your first European ski trip - presumably flying in from New Zealand?
Then maybe you want to do a two or three week trip combining a couple of European resorts maybe in Italy, Austria and France.
There is a snowhead from Australia @raven who did this last year and loved it so much that she has already put a trip together doing I think France & Italy early 2015 - you might want to drop her a PM just to compare notes.
Have you seen the trips @admin, who runs this forum puts together. They are great for exploring ski resorts at a good price & you'll never be short of ski buddies to explore the area with!
Kronplatz is a great South Tyrolian resort to warm up in which is on the Sella Ronda lift pass. Snowheads go there on the PreBBW3 on 25 January for a week. Check the thread in the "Snow Events" section out here: http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=111164
A lot of people then follow this up with the S11BB Birthday Bash in Arabba, Italy (directly on the Sella Ronda) - if you do Kronplatz before, then you can ski over from one resort to the other on transfer day. It might be getting full for Feb 2015 though: http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=108422
You could then follow that up with a UCPA week in Val d'Isere or Tignes having "warmed up" in Italy as otherwise it might be a bit of a shock to the system after having only skied in the NZ resort you described - and you want to get the most out of your European ski experience.
If you feel a bit more hardcore than Italian food & fun skiing then have a look at the SOPiB2015, Spring Off Piste Bash :: Serre Che, 21Feb 2015 which offers off piste instruction across various levels (but maybe check first before signing up whether you meet the minimum criteria to participate).
SOPiB2015, Spring Off Piste Bash :: Serre Che, 21Feb 2015
@ironmonkey, There is possibly a clue in your 'harder to turn'. When skiing with good technique, it isn't hard to turn AT ALL, regardless of the snow depth, shape or porridgeness. (although there are some snow types I have encountered that really challenge).
It is possible you are a natural...indeed I saw this at the Birthday Bash this year. A young lad called Daishan who posted a lot of questions before the event, particularly about off piste, and admitted he was newish having only done 2ish weeks on snow. I dreaded the results.
In reality, he was good. I was comfortable skiing in his company and I was particularly happy that he was in control at all times...this is not always the case.
I have skied with Skiclub and Snowheads, on and off piste in many European areas...and some of the 'expert' 'experienced' skiers had obviously been skiing on a plateau for far too long...and I feared they would collide with me all the time. If you find me volunteering to be tail end charlie in a group...then one of the group has me concerned...
I dont get it right all the time either - Last weekend at the ski test (at Manchester indoor snow slope), my penultimate run - I hopped onto some new skis...and at the bottom of the slope they caught me out and I ended up on my hip. I call this 'inspecting the snow structure at close range'
There is possibly a clue in your 'harder to turn'. When skiing with good technique, it isn't hard to turn AT ALL, regardless of the snow depth, shape or porridgeness. (although there are some snow types I have encountered that really challenge).
I dont find it hard. But it was intially harder to turn in ungroomed snow and managing grass tussocks and tracks left by other people, as you have to maintain weight distribution to avoiding sinking one of your skis into the snow. In virgin snow it should be even easier.
I'm not a natural, I learnt by brute force persistance. Stacked it countless times but you just learn, thankfully without injury. I suppose my life would have been much easier if someone told me to use my heels, when I figured that out it was like magic.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@ironmonkey,
Some pictorial evidence of @lampbus, hitting the offpiste (and the tiramisu).
You can assume that he knows what he is talking about as he is a much, much better skier than he lets on because he is very modest.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Quote:
If you find me volunteering to be tail end charlie in a group...then one of the group has me concerned.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
In virgin, freshly fallen (or transformed by temperature gradient and crystal evolution or wind transported but that tends to be in small pockets) snow without tussocks it is easy to turn, yes.
I can turn effortlessly in and through tracks left by other skiers, navigate tussocks etc. too, but it took many weeks, reading and pointers from instructors, to become this relaxed on skis, and there are still things I need to work on.
For me, when it all comes together it can feel like my body is floating above the snow and the skis are skipping,springing, down the slope below me doing their own thing...but I am guiding the action, with tiny finessed movements. Its hard to describe.
(and I am not on stronger stimulants than morning coffee)
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
ironmonkey wrote:
Quote:
Almost by definition anything that's never groomed will require more gradient than a 1 week skier is likely to be happy with all of the time.
Ungroomed intermediate freeride isnt an oxymoron. The small resort where i last skied (Mt Cheeseman in New Zealand) has these areas, i got hooked, hence my question about the best resort that has the same qualities.
But it largely is in Europe, as has been explained. (And you didn't ask for freeride, you asked for ungroomed marked runs.)
Quote:
Quote:
Really, I think perhaps what you need is to simply progress your off-piste career, as others have suggested.
I cant emphasize more that I dont want to ride hardcore gnarly trails requiring a guide.
I know... which is why I immediately followed that up with
Quote:
For that, you need resorts with lots of pretty safe mellow open areas that don't get tracked out. So there, the secret is to choose resorts which are not much frequented by beginner-intermediate off-piste skiers, or which are simply quiet.
As you noted yourself, progressing your off-piste career doesn't begin with haring down black-piste gradient slopes, it means learning the ropes in safe low-gradient terrain.
Quote:
I want nature rides, freeride trails, ungroomed intermediate runs, whatever you call them....
Since these don't typically exist in Europe, you'll have to go DIY instead. (If you're not looking at Europe, it would be best to call that out right now, since most people's experience on here is European skiing.)
Part of me does think you're just trolling though
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads on Wed 26-11-14 15:42; edited 2 times in total
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
I think we need a video of the OP skiing.
Just saying.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@under a new name, I was hoping this could evolve into another 'am I an intermidiot yet?' and we could move it ot BZK section and follow another enthusiastic new skier - My other half has just said we need to break FranzKlammer's monopoly...
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Quote:
we need to break FranzKlammer's monopoly...
with a "C" not a "K" as breaking Franz Klammer's monopoly even at his now somewhat advanced age might be a tad over-ambitious...
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Quote:
Part of me does think you're just trolling though Wink
Dont worry, I think I've gotten enough of what I want here! So it seems that I should not bother with Europe and head towards Japan/US/Canada (except Gudauri, which really seems like a giant Mt Cheeseman).
Quote:
I was hoping this could evolve into another 'am I an intermidiot yet?' and we could move it ot BZK section and follow another enthusiastic new skier
You will be dissappointed. I'm not concerned about developing into a very good skier doing all sorts of technicals, chutes, etc. All I need is just enough skills to enjoy great mountain scenery for hours without getting tired.
Oh dear! I fear we've wasted two pages of concern, interest and excellent advice.
@ironmonkey, well done on being so competent and confident after just a week at Mount Cheeseman.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@ironmonkey, well, the great mountain scenery is of course one of the reasons we all go skiing. I think your ' brute force persistance. ' tells me that you are now a comitted skier - many people try and give up...but here you are researching and asking questions. I hope the bug has firmly bitten you and you also get to become a great skier whilst experiencing snow covered beautiful places !
I hope you didn't take my 'intermidiot' thread comment the wrong way - If you go over there and read through (it is a lot of pages) then you will hopefully see Franz is a 'character' and titled the thread himself - we all enjoyed his videos and genuinely will him on to his aims of becoming an instructor. The technique discussion can get a bit heated at times though.
Seeing new skiers is good...I think I also enjoy thinking back to my early days skiing - I sometimes cringe when I think of how I used to ski. I learned as a teenager, then had a 10 year gap. When I got back on skis they had changed shape, and I can still remember the feeling of getting them carving (It may not have been actually cos there were no videos of me back then) but it felt great...I could feel my knee tucking in behind my other calf...it was all good...
But now I realise I must have been in a massive A-frame stance...glad I sorted that out, I wonder what I think looking back in a few years about my skiing in Manchester last weekend.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Wed 26-11-14 16:30; edited 2 times in total
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I much prefer North America for variety, terrain and ability to go and do what you want, less queues, friendly folk, massive rooms, massive food, and best of all the snow *tends* to be more reliable. That said this year was a disaster as I understand. First year in a decade I haven't been over there and sounds like that was a good plan.
Now Japan... I've yet to go, but definitely want to. All reports say it's just awesome snow. But if you're looking for ungroomed but no off-piste as in big powder, then maybe stay away as it's the big powder it's known for.
Still, don't knock Europe. There's a lot of fantastic resorts. It's not cheap though, rooms are small, queues are long and disorganised and the French are rude , and terrain can be a bit more restricted to pisted runs but it does vary. Some areas have a lot more variety and area to get off the groomed stuff. Some have some seriously challenging stuff, though I've always found it related to very steep stuff in icy conditions which seems frequent in Europe. North America maybe isn't so much steep and does have a lot of big wide groomers, but it has a lot to get off the pistes and explore wherever you want (well within boundaries but they're large). I do find North America you either need a huge resort like Whistler, or you need a car and a base, then go to different resorts each day as many are not bit enough for a whole trip. Europe they can be small to huge.
@ironmonkey, Japan maybe (I have no knowledge) but I wouldn't think that anywhere I've skied in North America is any different in terms of the gradients involved.
NA is the home of the groomer. I mean, they even often have grooming reports on how well groomed their slopes are...
It's a helluva a long way to go to do what's going on in Mike Pow's vid and no guarantee of even being able to do that.
Really, let's see how you ski. Go on.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
With respect to ironmonkey, I'm sure the reason he doesn't want trees is because he lacks the technique for off-piste tree skiing. There is no shame in that, it would be miraculous if he did after only a week of skiing.
Ironmoney, realistically, to get the conditions you are looking for on terrain you are ready for requires you to be lucky with the weather (basically you need fresh snow fall). You are more likely to get that in Japan, Canada or US Rockies than in Europe.
You COULD be lucky in Europe but lower odds.
TBH I agree with others - at this stage in your ski career, just enjoy what you find in front of you. A week of piste skiing in great scenery with a few lessons would get you on the road for future adventures
It's easy what you really want is somewhere it snows a lot and they don't regroom in the morning if it snows heavily overnight. For the odds this might mean Japan though you can get lucky many places. In general pot shots in Europe don't always deliver this.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Quote:
With respect to ironmonkey, I'm sure the reason he doesn't want trees is because he lacks the technique for off-piste tree skiing.
I might have crap technique but my preference for high alpine is more to do with the great scenery.
Quote:
It's easy what you really want is somewhere it snows a lot and they don't regroom in the morning if it snows heavily overnight.
Thats true. But now i realise the 'cultural' difference between Europeans and others (Japanese/Americans). Americans secure their entire resort area while in europe you cant go much off the piste. Its clear im after an American-type resort. My bad, I was not aware this forum is European centric.
After all it is free
After all it is free
ironmonkey wrote:
My bad, I was not aware this forum is European centric.
Not entirely
Problem is what you are requesting is hard to come by anywhere. In Whistler, if you get up early you'll probably get a run on a groomer that has been snowed on overnight, but then the hoards will descend and that'll be that. To get this consistently you either
a) have to pay someone to take you up the mountain in a cat or helicopter (but then you need to be good enough off-piste to make it worth it and not annoy the guides and other guests)
b) have to go somewhere in the middle of nowhere in the middle of the week.
c) you have to be able to get to and ski places where the majority can't/wont/can't be bothered - generally this means you are good at hiking/touring, really know where you are going, and/or can ski harder entries than most.
You can of course ski wherever you like in bounds (within reason and limitations of closures), this is 3D skiing so not the same as hero snow. Good thing is you can dabble a bit (without so much worry of avalanche doom) then beat a quick retreat
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
One word. Japan
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Quote:
Americans secure their entire resort area while in europe you cant go much off the piste
That's not the case - in Europe loads of people go off the piste, some a few metres off, some touring far from any pistes/resorts. Some are skilled, properly equipped and well-informed, some not. Even those not properly equipped and informed generally survive though sadly even some of the well equipped and informed don't.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Wot @pam w, said. You can get lots and lots of off piste in Europe. But as I have now said a few times, the chances, anywhere of you catching what you claim you like are slim to zero just picking a week. Unless you learn what you're doing. Which brings me back, again, to the question of why you don't like groomed slopes.
At the end of the day, TANSTAAFL.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
deadkenny wrote:
Still, don't knock Europe (proceed to knock europe).... It's not cheap though, rooms are small, queues are long and disorganised and the French are rude , and terrain can be a bit more restricted to pisted runs but it does vary. Some areas have a lot more variety and area to get off the groomed stuff. Some have some seriously challenging stuff, though I've always found it related to very steep stuff in icy conditions which seems frequent in Europe.
What a load of cobbled together generalizations that couldn't be less accurate if it tried. Rooms are small? Get what you pay for generally. Queues are long? Everywhere in Europe? Crikey. Terrain is restricted to pisted runs? Double Crikey.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
ironmonkey wrote:
Quote:
This what you mean?
That is EXACTLY what im looking for. Thank you. Although pity that the resorts in Japan are low lying tree covered mountains.
That's one of the pluses of Hokkaido skiing, the low altitude - typically 300-1300 m - combined with dry, light powder.
As the clip shows you can ski powder on a green run pitch which makes it the perfect learning environment to transition from groomed to ungroomed runs.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@deadkenny, do you always talk p1sh?
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
lampbus wrote:
The skiers in that video were, in the deeper stuff, straingtlining it. I suspect this is why you, as a beginner, like it - no technique involved - no need to actually turn to control your speed.
The snow in the video is light and easily pushed around. This is not typical.
They were holding a straighter line because
1. they could, which does take technique
2. they weren't travelling that fast on a green run pitch so there was little need to turn to control the speed on snow or turn for the sake of it
3. they were on all-mountain skis with waist widths under 90mm which allowed them to sink into the snow more, thereby allowing the snow depth to control speed on snow
Thankfully we get a lot of it on Hokkaido.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@Mike Pow, straight line = technique? Really? You ever taught a squad of raw squaddies. Temporary straight lines apoear to require no technique...
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
ironmonkey,
Quote:
I might have crap technique but my preference for high alpine is more to do with the great scenery.
You know, it's not mainly a cultural issue. It's mainly a question of terrain. The European Alps are generally steeper, more glaciated, more rocky, more dramatic than ski areas in the Rockies, Japan, NZ (I know there are similarly dramatic bits of the Southern Alps but not really where the ski areas are). What this means is that pistes tend to be threaded around pretty sporty terrain with lots of hazards - the area between the pistes often doesn't lend itself to patrolled, "safe" off-piste. The upside of this is that the scenery is even more fabulous and the ski terrain, if you have the skills and experience, offers more excitement (all this is on average of course).
Quite a few (most?) North American resorts have most of their skiing below the tree line. Which is not what you say you want. To my mind, the best compromise for you would be Whistler. It is characterised by Alpine bowls above more usual North American pistes cuts through the trees. They also have some "gladed runs" where they thin the trees out but don't piste - the thinning out makes them a lot more accessible to intermediate skiers. It is one of the best resorts in the World so will never be the cheapest but would maximise your chances of finding accessible, safe unpisted terrain with some alpine scenery. I don't think even Whistler residents would claim the scenery competes with Chamonix, Zermatt, Murren, etc though.
BTW - don't take offence about me suggesting that your technique isn't up to tree skiing - skiing through natural forest really requires advanced/expert skillset as you need to turn quickly, at will and deal with varying snow cover, obstacles like fallen branches, stumps, stream beds, etc. If you can do it you are pretty much guaranteed fresh tracks days after a fall because so few skiers really manage to enjoy it.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Quote:
But now i realise the 'cultural' difference between Europeans and others
That clip to me looks like a normal pisted ski run (although I admit i can't see the piste poles) which has:
a) had a bit of overnight snow on it (after having been piste-bashed the previous evening)
b) being skied for the first time that day the following morning, hence the fresh tracks.
Spot on.
Quote:
The off piste bit to the side of the run with deeper powder is exactly that, off-piste untracked powder right next to the run.
Spot on.
Quote:
I don't think what is shown in that clip is a typical situation, and its not really possible (I don't think) to "find" a resort with those conditions, they just happen when there is overnight snow after the piste bashers have been.
With an average annual snowfall around 13m at village level (approx. 300m) it is a regular occurance on Hokkaido. It's why I base myself here and why people holiday here.
At Kiroro for example we have runs which are groomed at night and then the snow is left to accumulate on this consistent base.
The next morning the run is left ungroomed until it gets too chopped up, then it's closed, groomed and reopened for piste skiing.
And the snow cn accumulate quite quickly during a storm so pistes become covered in fresh snow.
At Moiwa they groom half the run and leave the other half ungroomed width wise. So it's easy to transition from groomed to ungroomed on the same run.
And here's a pitch at Rusutsu between two pistes which they don't groom but which resets with the regular snowfalls.
@Mike Pow, straight line = technique? Really? You ever taught a squad of raw squaddies. Temporary straight lines apoear to require no technique...
Straighter line. The direction shifts are subtle, the skill / technique comes in fore/aft balance and pressure control.
Here's another example, this time it's me.
I'm happy travelling at higher speed, in steeper terrain, in deeper snow than my students. I nearly lose it and the clip shows how fore/aft balance and pressure control is so important when skiing unconsolidated snow.
And it also shows how snow depth can be used to control speed on snow.
This is in Powder Zone at Kiroro, an ungroomed, controlled area inbounds with little to no tree cover.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
hadn't seen that last post - never had snow like that in my hundreds of ski days
After all it is free
After all it is free
jedster wrote:
hadn't seen that last post - never had snow like that in my hundreds of ski days
It's that good, and that consistent in this part of Hokkaido.
Last season I had 63 knee-deep or deeper powder days out of 100 days on snow.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
@Mike Pow, looks lovely. Japan is on my list of skiing destinations...just moved up a notch.
Nerys is looking good for a one weeker - obviously benefitting from your expert teaching.
The point is our OP appears to have no teaching, and is not looking for it. He wants to head off into trickier snow and locations (but not yet La Grave couloirs - he has some sense) ... on his own.
Even in a patrolled area, what is the likelyhood of being found in a tree well (although he says he wants to avoid trees, they are often to be found on mountains)...or even just buried in powder if he has an accident - he will fall; and it will be when he encounters a small gully or drop that would easily conceal him from piste patrol. Would you send Nerys out on her own with one week skills ?
I referred to your page one video and straight lining, to try and show @ironmonkey a reason why he likes cruising on piste freshies, rather than freshly bashed pistes...and perhaps my point was missed : When he gets a bit more skilled and can turn on hardpack, he will be comfortable on that too...all whilst searching out the creamy smoothness we all like ?
Early in FransClammer's 'intermidiot' thread, his videos show him basically scraping down the piste on alternate skis. As I pointed out to him at the time he was not skiing, just scraping on alternate skis; he was 'turning' but he want making turns. As he improved, I was able to congratulate him on actually being a skier. Our OP probably is not there yet...I hope he hangs out here more, goes skiing more, and engages with us so that we can all improve our mountain experiences
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
lampbus wrote:
@Mike Pow, looks lovely. Japan is on my list of skiing destinations...just moved up a notch.
Nerys is looking good for a one weeker - obviously benefitting from your expert teaching.
Yeah she's put the hours in since she started 3 winters ago.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
Keep it up, it just gets better.
