 Poster: A snowHead
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Hi,
Quick query - my old Salomon Enduro's are still in good nick, I've upgraded to a pair of Nordica Hell&Backs. Wanted to pass the Enduro's down to Daugher the eldest - she's 16, strong skiier.
I'm roughly 5'11, 77 kgs, she's 5'9, 50 kgs. The enduro's are a 168, so not too long. Obviously I'll knock the DINs down to around 4 or 5 for her, but I wondered if the Enduro will be too heavy for her? Am i doing her no favours by giving her these? She's been on rentals up till this season as she was still growing, but i'm pretty sure she's stopped sprouting upwards now. She's a good skiier, comfortable on blacks, moguls etc, and is physically strong. I guess what i'm asking is whether there is any practical difference between ski's designed ostensibly for blokes and the prettier ones with sparkly bits designed for the layyyydeezz.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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What are her stats? Usually mens skis are stiffer
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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still 5 foot 9, 50 kgs....  unless she's had a big lunch.
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@coddlesangers, Mrs Ski and I weigh about the same. She's 5'8" and I'm 5'6" . For alpine I use a ski that is longer and stiffer than Mrs Ski uses (e.g. I have Coombaks for pow in 179 and Mrs Ski has Gotbaks 169). For Tele I have Mantras and and she has Auras -- which are softer. IMV heavy, stiff skis don't do anyone favours unless they are already very strong skiers. I have a pair of Enduros in my shed awaiting some wax --- they weigh a ton !
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Spray paint the name in Curlicue writing any apply some flower and butterfly stickers et voila Women's ski design.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@coddlesangers, I'm 5'9". However, I am regrettably a darn sight more than 50Kgs (Oh, to be young and thin again). I ski mens skis and have done so for a good few years though I started on ladies ones. So I don't think the fact that they are men's skis per se is why she might find them difficult. I think she might find them just too much ski. I've looked them up - something like these http://www.ekosport.co.uk/salomon-enduro-lx-750r-+-xte10-whi-ora-14-p-1-25361.html?gclid=Cj0KEQiA1qajBRC_6MO49cqDxbYBEiQAiCl5_N0qv9KmVCzCOzCq9KJqoLhCgVnDMtjJjJUT9IU_jI0aAtF-8P8HAQ yes? Well those skis have a Ti layer in them. My skis also have a Ti layer in them and this makes them rather rigid. I tried putting my daughter - as similarly competent in my old much softer ladies Elan 160cm Wave Magic's the other month and they are still too difficult for her. OK she isn't the age, height and weight yet of your daughter, but she is a similar skill level. She could get down on them, but wasn't having fun.
I think the reason I can ski adequately on what I use is just down to sheer bulk unfortunately I have a man's general build and consequently flexing them isn't so much of an issue for me, but I think they would defeat me if I were not as heavy. Your daughter might find the same she sounds somewhat lightly built - why not give her a try in a snow dome with them and see how she finds them, but make it clear that she doesn't have to say yes.
NB. Apart from paint jobs most men's skis in a range seem to have an equivalently built ladies ski to match. The only physical difference I have heard is in the binding mounting point which I am given to understand is sometimes different on ladies skis to accommodate a different COG.
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@coddlesangers, if you were happy on them at 77kgs, she might struggle with only 50kgs to play with. Otherwise, nothing wrong with the plan.
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well...in the lucky position that we don't have to try a snowdome, will see how she gets on next week either in les diablerets or verbier (living in switzerland has some upsides)
I found them a very easy ski, not stiff at all, but the added lump factor may be at play there  . Shall report back with the view from the young lady herself, worth a whirl anyway methinks!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| coddlesangers wrote: |
| I guess what i'm asking is whether there is any practical difference between ski's designed ostensibly for blokes and the prettier ones with sparkly bits designed for the layyyydeezz. |
As a bit of a gear geek I feel obliged to jump in here...
First of all, which model Enduros? and which binding system? Enduros had 0, 1 or 2 layers of titanium in them IIRC so for sure they're not all too stiff for a woman and all the best female skiers I know ski on men's (unisex) skis. A heavy (or damp) ski is not a bad thing if your technique is solid; in fact it helps considerably at high speeds so it really depends on what your definition of "a good skier" really is. Can she carve cleanly at 40mph? That's my definition of a good skier. If she can, the weight will be a benefit, not a hindrance.
| megamum wrote: |
| NB. Apart from paint jobs most men's skis in a range seem to have an equivalently built ladies ski to match. The only physical difference I have heard is in the binding mounting point which I am given to understand is sometimes different on ladies skis to accommodate a different COG. |
This is not strictly true. Women's skis DO usually have the binding point further forward and that's why I ask what binding system you have. If it's a Smartrak or Protrak plate then you can move it forward 1-2cms and that would be the theoretical "women's" position on the same ski so no issue.
Very often though, the women's ski is lighter through changing the density of the wood core so it's not just the binding position. So we're back to, " What model Enduro?" and "How good is your daughter, really?"
With full credit, here's a couple of articles from a bloke (Jackson Hogen - realskiers.com) who knows far more than me about women's skis:
The Wacky World of Women's Equipment
Back Story
Allow us to peel back the veil of time to an epoch 20 years ago. Fat, powder-specific skis were just finding a following on the fringe of the sport and carving skis, still unknown in the New World, were too new to have a name yet. The only skis marketed as made for women were entry-level recreational skis built in unisex molds. In other words, women's models were spin-offs of the cheapest recipes from the men's menu, often made even worse by deleting a few parts to lighten the structure and earn an "L" designation.
By 1997, the shaped ski revolution was complete, introducing a New Age that upset every paradigm, in the process elevating women's skis from the ghetto to something closer to middle-class status. As the carving and fat-boy trends merged over the next fifteen seasons, a made-for-women model infiltrated every genre from Frontside to Powder, creating the appearance of gender parity.
Present Day
For the 2014/15 season, roughly 3 out of every 10 models on display in ski racks across this country will be women's models. Sell-through statistics aren't quite as robust as the selection, as women's retail ski sales are no more than 25% of the market total, but it's still a sizeable segment.
Unlike the situation two decades ago, today's female skier appears to accept the proposition that a ski "made for a woman" will help her enjoy the sport more. The question is, just how "made for a woman" is the modern woman's ski? Other than the old game of taking stuffing out to make it lighter and easier to bend, is anything else being done to adapt ski construction to the benefit of womankind?
The answer is an emphatic yes and no.
Most of today's women's models still issue from a unisex mold, although the number of exceptions climbs with each passing season. Women's skis targeted at the groomed-snow skier - of all ability levels, but particularly the ubiquitous, oxymoronic "advanced intermediate" - are where most of the gender-specific adaptations can be found.
The two traits that persistently define all women's models, lighter weight and softer flex, remain the predominant modifications, but how these qualities are achieved runs the gamut from the simple to the sublime.
The most common operation for giving a men's ski a sex change is switching the composition of the core's make-up, swapping out heavier woods in favor of lighter density Paulowenia, bamboo or PU foam. In the case of some brands, this is as far as concessions to gender go. Nordica's Wi-Core, for example, consists of two channels of foam in lieu of wood that they cleverly make visible through a transparent topskin, creating the impression they've carefully concocted a women's formula when what they've done is add one more slice of foam to the i-Core construction, sidecut and baseline originally formulated for men.
Women's-specific cores could be on the endangered species list, not because they're going out of style but because they're in hot demand... in the booming backcountry market. You can see the crossover consequence in Atomic's new Big Mountain skis, the Automatic 109 and 102 for men and Century 109 and 102 for women. They use the same, well, everything, as both were intended for in-bounds/out-of-bounds activities. The women's skis didn't get any less well adapted for women; they just became coincidentally better suited for skinning.
Of course a ski is much more than its core composition. There are many permutations of waist positioning, sidecut, and core profile to tinker with, not to mention the small matter of what materials to use to build the rest of the ski.
We'll break it down next time.
Women's Equipment, Part II
Location, Location, Location
Returning (just for a moment) to those hoary years of yore, before anyone thought two seconds about making a women's ski, all that could then be done in the name of adaptation was move the female skier's mounting point forward on a ski patently, defiantly made by men for men. The apostle of the doctrine of a forward mounting point, as lonely as Diogenes searching for an honest man, was Jeannie Thoren, who faced derisive opposition every step of the way.
Bear in mind, this was before shaped skis made it seem inadvisable to hop-scotch all over the ski in search of the perfect balance point. Even after shaped skis were so dominant that the adjective became unnecessary, moving the mounting mark forward - relative to where it would be on another ski from the same mold, marketed for a man - became a shibboleth of women's ski manufacture that endures to the present day.
Only when the manufacturer decides to cut new molds (for every size) for a new women's model can the sidecut's mid-point move, instead of just the mark. To the credit of those who simply move the mounting mark (or provide a potpourri of marks, as is the wont today), those who start from scratch also end up moving a woman's midpoint a centimeter or two forward of where they would have positioned it for a man.
No brand has thought more about this issue than K2. (Sorry, we love you Head, Völkl and Atomic, but K2 has been doing empirically derived women's positioning studies since Biblical times.) The conclusion their engineers have divined is that women feel greater comfort and control 2cm further forward on the same length platform as men, so they build the sidecut, baseline and flex response around that point.
Over in Mittersill, Austria, the engineers at Blizzard see women's skis differently. All their current women's skis issue from unisex molds; the only concessions to the probable presence of a female aboard are a switch to Paulowenia and bamboo in lieu of beech or poplar to lighten the core and a recommended mounting point nudged forward by a centimeter. The reason for the slight shift forward isn't intended as a form of ladies' aid, but an adjustment for the likelihood that the female skier's boot will be shorter, with proportionately more material in front of the skier's balance point. All Blizzard is trying to do is put a woman more precisely where a man would be on the same ski.
Blizzard's Viva series of Frontside skis for women are system skis (the norm in this groomed-snow genre), which allow the skier to tinker with stance position to her heart's content. Blizzard's IQ system uses only a single, central screw to attach its integrated Marker binding to the ski, so it bends easier under light pressure and weighs less, both benefits for the smaller pilot.
Basically, Blizzard slips what amounts to a backcountry core into a unisex mold, screens multiple mounting points over a feminized topskin treatment and - ta-da! -another woman's ski is born. This somewhat facile approach hasn't dampened sales, as the Black Pearl was, by some measures, the best-selling women's ski in the specialty retail channel in 2014. Even though Blizzard's "a goose is just a lighter gander" approach is working, the pressure to innovate in a viciously competitive market may push them to present alternative solutions for women in the near future.
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| Quote: |
As a bit of a gear geek I feel obliged to jump in here...
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@Raceplate, Given the post above I ain't arguing LOL 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Thanks raceplate, fantastic detail, appreciate it! The skis are the enduro LX 800, so not the stiffest of the enduros, and the binding is the Z10 system binding. I suspect it'll be easy to move it forward a few cm's if needed. On the definition of how good a skier she is - she's strong, has been skiing since the age of 10 and carves cleanly at decent speed.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@coddlesangers, give it a go, I still think she'll be a little underweighted. She needs to eat more pies.
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A junior racer aged 16 will be skiing on GS skis which are much longer and stiffer than the Enduros. If she has good enough technique she will handle them. My prediction is that she will have a blast with them on piste, but find them a little unwieldly in moguls. Well no ski is perfect for everything.
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You know it makes sense.
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@coddlesangers, Absolutely no difference, small marketing gimmicks but a strong female skier will ski anything, most freeride skis are the same for men and women with different top sheets these days and slightly diffrent dimensions IE Salomon Q90 Men and Q88 Women are the exact same ski!!!
If she can ski wind down the bindings and let her at it!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@coddlesangers, the LX were the softest flexing ski of the Enduro range. From what you've said about her ability I don't think she'll have any issue with them. They're closer to being too soft than too stiff for her level so I wouldn't worry at all. Could be perfect for her.
The Z10 is on a Protrak plate so can be moved forward 1-2cms easily just by lifting the latches with your fingers. Move the toe and the heelpiece forward one notch at a time on the centre rail. You don't need a screwdriver so she can play with the position on the mountain to test which position feels the most balanced for her. Enjoy!
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| Spray paint the name in Curlicue writing any apply some flower and butterfly stickers et voila Women's ski design. |
So true. I am pretty sure that this is exactly how they turned Line Prophets into Lady Flashman's Line Celebrity 90 womens' skis. Curlicue writing and flower stencilling. Have to say they look nice, though - semi-transparent so you can see the wood cores.
Previously, she skiied a mens pair of K2 Apache Recons in 165cm, which she had for over 10 years. She far prefers the Lines - but then ski technology has moved on a lot from those heavy old K2s.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I think they are called "unisex" skis not "men's" I weigh couple kilos more and my piste skis are Head Magnums.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Fattes13, Agree. 99% of the time the difference is in graphics and marketing lingo. Rossi state different lengths for their Soul/Savoury 7 - 170, 178 for women and 172, 180 for men, I saw them back to back and they are absolutely the same. I also tried temptations 88 and experience 88 and wouldn't tell them apart if I had my eyes closed.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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And the feedback from the young lady herself - she loved, them, she had a blast. No problem getting and holding an edge, she was a happy camper. Her father slightly less impressed with the ease with which she kept up with him, but you can't have everything. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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LOL... good result. For what it's worth, all the decent female skiers I regularly ski with just use mens skis, and some of them are about 50kg too.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I use female skis, because mens tend to be longer, but also because I can pick up real bargains in female specific skis that I just can't in female specific.
Example, picked up my Rossi Saffrons for $300 new in March last year. OH looking for Soul 7s can't find them on offer anywhere.
Men= equipment junkies that keep prices high
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Whoops meant the second to be male specific
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