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What made Britain's most elite ski instructors convert to helmets?

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Go! the Girls in Zermatt - @rob@rar, great photo at least someone reads what I write Laughing
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Did someone say something?
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Fattes13 wrote:

@Comedy Goldsmith, Are you ever going to answer the question about the home page on the BASI website?


Sorry, what was the question again ... Can this photo be enlarged? It's tiny.

This thread is focused (as per its title) ... whether you agree with this or not is up to you ... on why BASI trainers (particularly those demo-skiing for the Interski event in 2015) converted from not skiing in helmets in 2009 (at least in terms of the big group photo) to skiing in helmets in 2014 ... at least in terms of the latest official group photo.

This is very simple, though clearly certain players want to muddy it:

Will the BASI demo team ski in helmets at Ushuaia?
Does the sponsor (Salomon?) influence the situation?
Does Interski - or peer-pressure at the event - influence the situation?

These questions are important, because everyday skiers are influenced by opinion-leaders.
The helmet either has an effective role in skiing, or it doesn't.
It would be very useful to know the current views of BASI's opinion-leaders on helmets.

It's important that we know the views of BASI's Interski team - themselves, not those who would claim to speak for them - on this matter!
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Quote:

It's important that we know the views of BASI's Interski team - themselves

No it isn't Toofy Grin
Nor is it important that we know the views of
Quote:

those who would claim to speak for them - on this matter

but it is fun Toofy Grin

Speaking personally I never wore a ski helmet until about 5 years ago then the OH made noises as to how she would be less worried if I wore one (whilst skiing only wink ) so I bought one and wear it so she worries less when I'm away. It's comfy and keeps my head warm but I do miss my woolly hat. Smile
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Beanies are sooo '90s
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Meanwhile ... over at the Tea Club forum, the tea cups are rattling.

http://www.skiclub.co.uk/skiclub/membersonly/snowtalk/discussion.aspx/Skiing-And-Snowboarding-general?discussionID=14944#.VGcj_2fOoih

Gerry Aitken, director of the Ski Club of Great Britain, misquotes the above into the first person ("I" instead of "we"), to fabricate a 'pomposity' argument out of it.

Anyone who's known this individual's internet trolling and abuse over the past 12 years will recognise it as typical of the man.

Is it any wonder that the SCGB is in persistent legal trouble, internationally, with this character in the boiler room? The SCGB itself has been a major culprit in the promotion (and even retail sale by mail order) of ski helmets by using false information about head injuries.

This is a reasonably serious subject - an accessory of 'safety' equipment, massively marketed and propagandised over the past 15 years - and it's reasonable to get to the truth without all the personal crap in the process.

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@Comedy Goldsmith, An accusation of "..abuse over the past 12 years.." is a bit harsh, no?
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Maybe 11 years
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Its cute they consider you villainous wink It is probably bit late to get a good Dick Dastardly look for Movember, though.
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Gerry Aitken now compounds the deviousness by accusing me of "editing" the original post.

In that way he claims that his fabrication wasn't a fabrication.

This congregation is witness to the fact that no edit of the post took place.

What Gerry Aitken needs to do is explain why he's whipping up a silly melodrama on a website that he's responsible for (as a council-member and director of the SCGB), making up rubbish ... and then squirming like a schoolkid to get out of trouble.
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@Comedy Goldsmith,

it would appear that 66.6% of BASI Trainers don't wear helmets wink

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/v/t1.0-9/10675622_866727583347469_161141367912852231_n.jpg?oh=f37dec64b52c8f37d39384c8afe68881&oe=54E15F6F&__gda__=1423308070_2c610e126f7291c391e66fbe5d92eca0
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Quote:

It's important that we know the views of BASI's Interski team - themselves


For the life of me I cannot why see this is important to know to you, to SH or to anyone else around the globe. Neither really is worrying about any organisation's stance or influence over the wearing of safety gear. I cannot see why any organisation worth its salt would turn around and say we won't advocate that you should wear safety gear. To do so would be litigatious death. What difference does it make to you DG or anyone else whether someone suggests that you wear a helmet or not. As had been so often pointed out, if someone is engaged in an activity of their own free will and not subject to another organisations insurance policy they will doubtless dress in whatever pleases them them, and if that includes a bikini and flip-flops then so be it (quite where you would hang the flip-flops when skiing I might not suggest.

DG I have never been able to sort out this single minded determination of yours to find wrong in people, be they BASI, SCGB or anyone else for that matter. If it doesn't affect you - and I can't see why BASI instructors making a decision whether to wear helmets does, then why don't you just accept it as not concerning you and move on with your life?

If you can answer the question above then perhaps I might be able to see where you are coming from.

Yours
'puzzled from Essex'
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stewart, I accept your data!

What this seems to be about is not whether BASI trainers, in their day-to-day professional work or freeskiing, ski with helmets on. It is whether BASI - as an organisation - is a helmet promoter.

I've cited evidence on a previous page of BASI's president making it very clear (earlier this year in the Telegraph) that he sees a standard duty for BASI members to wear helmets. And the BASI chairman stated in 2011 (according to The Independent) that he supported insurance companies imposing helmet-wearing as a standard policy condition - therefore for all skiers and well as instructors.

There is clear evidence that recent official staged photos of the BASI Interski demo team show comprehensive helmet-wearing.

The remaining question, really, is whether that team will be fully helmetted at Interski 2015 ... or whether individual members of the team will ski without them.

Maybe it's time for people to stand and be counted on this issue ... in official photos and/or all photos.

It might attract some media attention for the British team ... and a worthwhile public debate.


Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much on Sat 15-11-14 14:34; edited 1 time in total
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'puzzled from Essex', hopefully the above is clear. I absolutely do not have a "single minded determination ... to find wrong in people". That's just ridiculous and insulting. I work in a team of 140 people at my workplace - in constant teamwork with different team-members - and no one would find a shred of truth in what you're alleging (I've worked there over 6 years). It's absurd, and you seem to be in some sort of fantasy world.
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@Comedy Goldsmith, well my observation is that you have 5 pages of argument here where you seem to purport that BASI is suggesting that folks ought to wear helmets and with the implication that this is wrong. I also recall countless threads of your instigation where you decry SGCB and some of their members, any insinuation that helmets are a fair idea, as well as many threads in which you maintain that folks don't need generally accepted avi gear and are wrong not to just venture forth with just powder ribbons for company. In every thread many folks appear to disagree with you yet you will argue and argue a point into the ground which at the end of the day would appear to make very little difference to you and where your stance as an experienced skier possibly causes newer skiers to think again the necessity of some of the safety gear which maybe they ought to be using.

This thread for example appears very anti-helmet and appears very questioning of a well respected organisation like BASI by your suggestion that there is something underhand in their possible (and not proven) promotion of a bit of safety equipment that you personally don't agree with - not agreeing with it is your prerogative, but it hardly seems fair to drag BASI through the mud in a public forum IMHO just to satisfy something for yourself.
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who cares really? either you wear a helmet or you don't, it is down to individual choice at this stage, and if the ski instructors do then it will influence newbies, but if they don't it won't make folks feel they need them. Goodness what about those who learned to ski when helmets weren't even worn by children, will instructors influence them to wear a helmet ? NO.
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Having just picked up on a few bits of this thread I'm a little confused. Are people saying there's some sort of cospiracy where BASI are talking backhanders from helmet manufacturers? If so, who cares? Most ski companies take money from sponsors, e.g. New Generation Ski School have their kit sponsored by manufacturers/ski shops etc. That's just how marketing works. So if a helmet manufacturer decided to pay BASI to do that with helmets it's entirely reasonable in the commercial world.

And whether helmets provide good peotection or not, I'd assume skiers are generally safer with one so I'm not going to wait until someone spends millions on research to conclusively prove the point either way. Hence I wear one, just in case I get sprangled and just in case a helmet would make the difference. If others don't want to wear one that's fine with me.
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@Dugyboy, don't worry, the common sense viewpoint doesn't often trouble DG when he's riding one of his hobby horses.
Welcome to snowHeads, by the way. Very Happy
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@Dugyboy, So true, you either choose to wear one or not, and if you do, then enjoy it, if not then that is your choice, it is a debate that really cheeses me off to be honest, I like to ski, and I never bother looking to see if other skiiers are wearing helmets or not. I would find it a bit silly to see it brought into law, once law invades a pastime it becomes like driving and the fun becomes so many rules that it loses the sport side.
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Dugyboy wrote:
Are people saying there's some sort of cospiracy where BASI are talking backhanders from helmet manufacturers?


Dugyboy wrote:
Most ski companies take money from sponsors, e.g. New Generation Ski School have their kit sponsored by manufacturers/ski shops etc. ... So if a helmet manufacturer decided to pay BASI to do that with helmets it's entirely reasonable in the commercial world.


No, no one is saying that BASI is acting in a particularly controversial way. We know very little about this situation, except that official BASI photos show their entire (or almost entire) demo team in helmets. Your second point, though, is quite wrong - BASI happens to be an independent (and I think still non-profit member-owned) professional training and exam organisation, and should surely (Shirley) be independent of commercial pressure on something as serious and public as this.

One way of 'nutshelling' this is to simply ask: "Are individual members of the BASI team open to make personal decisions on whether to wear a helmet, or is it a team decision?"

Further information is welcome.
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Quote:

We know very little about this situation


Probably because a) there isn't one and this is figment of your over active imagination and your own agenda. P.S. I think this is most likely, of b) that's because it really none of our business. BTW I also think it's wrong of you to refer to 'we', actually I am sure you should have written 'I'.

Quote:

BASI happens to be an independent (and I think still non-profit member-owned) professional training and exam organisation, and should surely (Shirley) be independent of commercial pressure on something as serious and public as this.


Why on earth should BASI be exempt from such things when other potentially influential non-profit organisations benefit heavily from sponsorship and actively promote the case? i.e. http://mountainrescue.gooutdoors.co.uk/ http://www.theairambulanceservice.org.uk/get-involved/corporate-partners/our-partners http://www.guidedogs.org.uk/supportus/corporatepartnerships/#.VGhhqss2aAE http://www.rda.org.uk/donatefundraise/corporate-partnerships/ http://rnli.org/howtosupportus/getinvolved/Pages/Corporate-partnerships.aspx http://www.sja.org.uk/sja/support-us/corporate-supporters.aspx those 6 were my first immediate thoughts on charities which might support corporate sponsorship, every single one got a 'hit' and you are not telling me that St. John Ambulance doesn't get involved in important training.

Many non-profit organisations benefit from sponsorship and where products are relevant why not promote them?

I still think you are being unfair to BASI
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Quote:

Will the BASI demo team ski in helmets at Ushuaia?
Does the sponsor (Salomon?) influence the situation

the original question and the title of the thread is quite clear, what has been shown is not all, top skiers wear helmets and the break down is so far away from even entertaining your strange conspiracy theory

As all ready clearly answered, the photos posted show a range of helmets from various companies not just Salomon! So no Salomon are not pushing helmets on the team,

This should help with a research on the 2011 demos's from Interski some with helmets some without


http://youtube.com/v/xRFCv_QKrMY
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To compare with the above video ... the 'pitch video' for sponsorship of the Interski demo deam in 2015. As far as I can make out, up to two members of the team are seen in action sequences in this footage without helmets ...

Sponsor the BASI Interski Demo Team 2015 from Official BASI
http://vimeo.com/107127184

And the page which goes with that ...

http://www.basiinterski.org.uk/sponsors/


Last edited by After all it is free Go on u know u want to! on Sun 23-11-14 15:44; edited 1 time in total
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Comedy Goldsmith wrote:


One way of 'nutshelling' this is to simply ask: "Are individual members of the BASI team open to make personal decisions on whether to wear a helmet, or is it a team decision?"

Further information is welcome.


I thought this thread was about BASI trainers? Rob answered that question several times. Now it's about the BASI team?

Here are a few suggestions:


    - Maybe BASI trainers are just like "normal" people (Joe public) and have come to the conclusion that wearing a helmet in some situations is probably a good idea (apart from those that don't wear them of course.....).

    - Ignoring the reasons for the moment (irrelevant in this argument), helmets have become more popular and more widely worn by the general skiing/boarding community. Why would BASI trainers, or anyone else, be immune to the same influences that have made helmet wearing generally more popular? You can't argue that because BASI trainers might be "influencers" that they are not also influenced by others.

    - Maybe the age demographic of BASI trainers means that more and more of them grew up being used to wearing helmets. In which case they will naturally become more prevalent I would expect.

    - I grew up without one. When they started to become more common I decided it was probably a good idea and seemed like basic common sense; I could be wrong. Now I feel kind of naked skiing or boarding without one. That's my choice though. Maybe some of the BASI people that do wear helmets have been through the same simple process.
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@nemesys, seems a sensible enough post!
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nemesys wrote:
I thought this thread was about BASI trainers?


Well, the title of the thread refers to "Britain's most elite ski instructors". So it's specifically about the BASI Interski demo team.

Going back to the photos in the original posting, it's therefore about the most elite trainers (i.e. the Interski team) within the large 2009 group shot of trainers, compared to the Interski group shot for 2015 ... and now the video three postings above.

Keeping it simple - are there members of the Interski demo team who are wearing helmets for the photoshoots/videos, who normally don't wear helmets?
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Mx David Goldsmith does not need to wear a helmet because he does not ski - however, if he should ever fall off his high horse, lets hope he is not wearing one..................
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@Megamum, YOU'VE GOT IT !
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Comedy Goldsmith wrote:
nemesys wrote:
I thought this thread was about BASI trainers?


Well, the title of the thread refers to "Britain's most elite ski instructors". So it's specifically about the BASI Interski demo team.



Wow you must have some serious contempt for everyone here or arrogance to think people will buy this change of direction when your argument seems to have fallen apart. Your title reads as you said but the post explaining the title clearly states:

Comedy Goldsmith wrote:

What persuaded BASI trainers to make the big switch?


This after comparing a picture of BASI trainers in 2009 with one of the BASI Interski team 2014......which in hindsight doesn't seem like a reasonable comparison in the first place.

Make your mind up.


Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Sat 22-11-14 23:16; edited 1 time in total
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@nemesys, you've also got it !
Snowheads are fianlly beginning to realise how to recognise this troll - unfortunately it is a troll with the skin of a buffalo !
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You people - "Scrumpy", "nemesys", "megamum" etc. - really are a class act.

Sure ... take no notice of what I say (hopefully it's factual) ... don't watch the BASI video above (or here) ...
Sponsor the BASI Interski Demo Team 2015 from Official BASI
http://vimeo.com/107127184

10/10 in helmets? 10/12 in helmets? 12/12 in helmets?

And in 2009 ... you believe that big group of helmetless BASI trainers didn't include the BASI Interski team of that time?

Would a 'thinking helmet' help?

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@Comedy Goldsmith, We don't care - why do you ?
It is our choice whether or not we wish to wear helmets.
We do not wish to be lectured to by a conspiracy theorist - simples !
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Well, it's your choice until a lift company, or a government, or a ski school, or a snowdome (i.e. Braehead Snow Factor) tells you you must wear a helmet.

That threat comes much closer when skiing instititutions ... e.g. SCGB by publishing false head injury data, or BASI with a helmeted demo team (some members of which apparently don't normally wear helmets) ... give the impression that helmets are a 'norm' or an 'essential'.

These forces have to be opposed every winter.
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Fortunately nobody listens to either SCGB or BASI as they are, by and large, irrelevant to most people except their own membership. Helmet usage is already the Norm if you count over 50% of people using them as a normal. And they're only essential when you clonk your bonce*. The anti-helmet war is lost, best fight a rear-guard campaign from a pro-freehead stand point.



* other opinions are available.
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@Comedy Goldsmith, Ah, now you are seeing threats where none exist - as you do not ski you are not under threat of anything - apart from ridicule of course.
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Richard_Sideways wrote:
Fortunately nobody listens to either SCGB or BASI as they are, by and large, irrelevant to most people except their own membership. Helmet usage is already the Norm if you count over 50% of people using them as a normal.


+1 and +2
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Scrumpy wrote:
as you do not ski


Another fucking lie. What do you do for a living, Scrumpy? At least you could tell us that.

I've skied twice in the past two years - Switzerland (Zermatt), Austria (Niederau + Ski Juwel network) - (at my own expense). I have visited the Munich (Ispo) sports trade fair in February 2013, at my own expense. (Ask the press office). This is the major international fair for the ski trade.

Why print lies and force me to reveal private information I've no particular desire to disclose?

No, I'm not interested in where you ski ... or where/how you learn to disseminate falsehoods.


Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Mon 24-11-14 15:22; edited 1 time in total
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@Scrumpy, are you getting all this crap from Gerry Aitken? That man (a SCGB director) sent me an email 10 years ago saying I'd left the SCGB and rejoined it to obtain a free backpack as a new member. That was also a lie (a seriously stupid lie) - part of a quite deliberate smear campaign, all the way up to and including the SCGB Council room, which resulted (a year later) in an official apology to members.

Have another go.
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@Comedy Goldsmith, Don't swear David. It doesn't become you Little Angel
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Comedy Goldsmith wrote:
.

I've skied twice in the past two years - Switzerland (Zermatt), Austria (Niederau + Ski Juwel network) - (at my own expense). I have visited the Munich (Ispo) sports trade fair in February 2013, at my own expense. (Ask the press office). This is the major international fair for the ski trade.

.


Most of us "ski at our own expense" - except real journalists of course.

I am a bean counter BTW - (not that that has anything to do with anything I have ever posted ? )
Nor has GA is anything to do with me , nor did I mention your "history" with him - for which you appear to have an elephantine memory. Most people would accept an apology and move on ........

And you never used to deny not skiing for many years - how did you find the non-wooden skis ?
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