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Simon Butler ... "BASI licence revoked" [1 Nov] ... court challenge [21 Nov]

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@TTT,
Quote:

Pulling out of EU as SB advocates


You will have to refresh my memory, when did SB say this?
I know he has used an eccentric fringe party to get his case heard at European level but are you sure he agrees with all their idiotic policies?
wink
ski holidays
 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
TTT wrote:
only release factual legal statements as BASI has done

Such as the BASI legal director's (incorrect) pre-trial speculation that SB had not submitted his dossier to the French authorities?
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
Let's not fool ourselves, while higher qualifications are needed for high level instruction, the quality if an individual's instruction is as much about their personal qualities as the badges they wear. NAmerican ski schools have hiring clinics where they test this and a vocal consumer base who are not afraid to give tough feedback.


As a casual observer of this farce, to me this is the nail on the head statement. As a receiver of ESF instruction over the years and also having listened to countless other's observations of same it's clear to me that the French and in particular the ESF still seem to have a ridiculous box-ticking approach to who can and can't teach your normal recreational skier. Ability to actually teach should have equal importance to the skiing ability of the instructor.

The relevance of the Eurotest and TT qualifications to instruction of any but maybe 1% of the public is utterly redundant

How many people are taught to drive by ex F1 or WRC drivers ?
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irie wrote:
Switzerland is not in the EU.


No but it has many bi-literal treaties with the EU, including one incorporating free movement of workers and services. Which, I imagine, is what permits SB to ply his trade with Switzerland. Withdrawal from EU would presumably therefore remove that right to provide services in Switzerland. Unless anyone believes in case of UK withdrawal, UK citizens are likely to retain the right to work and provide services in the EU while citizens of the EU do not enjoy the same rights to live and work here that exercises UKIP so much.
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Kenny wrote:
In the US and Canada you are increasingly likely to be taught by a lowly qualified gap year kid on minimum wage. Unless the ESF stick to their guns the same will happen in France.
I think you're wrong on both assertions there.

I've worked with various Canadian ski schools and I have been hugely impressed with their staffing and professionalism. Do you have any evidence of systemic quality of service problems in Canada similar to those found in France? It's precisely those quality of service issues which create the business opportunity for SB et al.

You're suggesting that the ESF is trying to restrict access to "gap year kids", when in fact it's trying to restrict access only to people who aren't trained through the French system, which is a different thing entirely. Your argument is wrong.
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<edit>@Kruisler Yes, they are intrinsically linked, but the proposition the UK citizens would not be able to work in Europe as they do now should the UK leave the EU is scare tactics - the qualifications to be able to work would remain the same, and I'm not aware that being an EU citizen is one of them).


Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Tue 16-12-14 14:03; edited 1 time in total
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@Dunk, argued before but did say in ukip video something like the sooner we are out of EU the better but I do concede that I suspect he did not really mean it. Still wrong.

I'm sure he has submitted dossier now but not during the original grandfather process as understand he was too stubborn to do so.

I've found the knowledge of local ex-racers and race coaches very relevant to a punter skier. Their technical knowledge, observation and teaching skills are just in a totally different league IME. I probably would have given up on skiing long ago if not for such people after trying the more popular options. Also just an amazing experience to ski with these people.
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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
I'm sure it would be replaced by some visa system but automatic rights would go and those working in CH find it still works but a pain
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irie wrote:
Yes, they are intrinsically linked, but the proposition the UK citizens would not be able to work in Europe as they do now should the UK leave the EU is scare tactics - the qualifications to be able to work would remain the same, and I'm not aware that being an EU citizen is one of them).


That's incorrect. The right to work and provide services within the EU is for EU citizens.

Half the reason many want to withdraw from the EU is because freedom of movement permits other EU nationals to live and work in the UK. It's ludicrous to believe that right could be withdrawn but the right of UK citizens to work elsewhere in the EU would be unaffected.
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irie wrote:
the proposition the UK citizens would not be able to work in Europe as they do now should the UK leave the EU is scare tactics -

Is it?
Maybe I am missing something, but a lot of the current anti-EU feeling in the UK, is based on immigration fears/issues. Certainly that's my understanding of UKIP's stance, i.e. all those EU migrants taking local jobs and/or living off benefits... So logically one could think that the aim of leaving the EU would be to not be constrained by EU laws any more and block/limit EU immigration... In which case why would you expect the opposite restriction not to apply and UK citizens to be able to freely work in Europe?

Edit: had missed Dogwatch post that pretty much says the same as me..
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Quote:

In the US and Canada you are increasingly likely to be taught by a lowly qualified gap year kid on minimum wage


I'm not sure this is true. Ski instructors come in levels, 1-4; if you are a beginner kid you likely get a level 1, who could be a gap year. I'm having a lesson on Sat with 2 friends and because of our standard we are guaranteed a level 3.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Dunk wrote:
... eccentric fringe party ...


UKIP might be "eccentric" but a hardly a "fringe party"!
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
TTT wrote:
I've found the knowledge of local ex-racers and race coaches very relevant to a punter skier. Their technical knowledge, observation and teaching skills are just in a totally different league IME. I probably would have given up on skiing long ago if not for such people after trying the more popular options. Also just an amazing experience to ski with these people.


Given that you said this only 2 pages ago ...

TTT wrote:
No clearly choose to completely misunderstand such is the SB world view. I really don't care. I've not read the SB anti basi rants and posts as I'm not interested. I'm not interested in instructing. I'm not interested in TO package trips and I enjoy being instructed by local ex racers as that is the highest quality instruction I've received so as no impact on me so can't get excited about what happens. I don't even like skiing. Just got a lot of friends who do so useful to have access to high quality instruction to help me ski with them so doesn't impact me. Just find all the SB obsession and anti basi stuff very strange. Really can't be bothered. Just ski.


... it's difficult to see why you bother!
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@dogwatch "The right to work and provide services within the EU is for EU citizens."

Non-EU citizens can work within the EU.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
I can see that someone would find it difficult to understand if they don't read the whole paragraph. It seems the ability to empathise with another point of view is not some people's strong suit and some people stalking others is frankly weird behaviour.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
gryphea wrote:
Quote:

In the US and Canada you are increasingly likely to be taught by a lowly qualified gap year kid on minimum wage


I'm not sure this is true. Ski instructors come in levels, 1-4; if you are a beginner kid you likely get a level 1, who could be a gap year. I'm having a lesson on Sat with 2 friends and because of our standard we are guaranteed a level 3.


I know 1 level 4 who has given up and two others who are cutting back. The grumbling here is "why did I bother paying a fortune to get these qualifications".
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
TTT wrote:
I can see that someone would find it difficult to understand if they don't read the whole paragraph. It seems the ability to empathise with another point of view is not some people's strong suit and some people stalking others is frankly weird behaviour.


Don't get paranoid, nobody's "stalking" you.

If you make statements which directly contradict what you said less than a week earlier then you must expect that fact to be brought up.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
They don't if you actually read them
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Of course they don't ... to you. wink
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philwig wrote:
Kenny wrote:
In the US and Canada you are increasingly likely to be taught by a lowly qualified gap year kid on minimum wage. Unless the ESF stick to their guns the same will happen in France.
I think you're wrong on both assertions there.

I've worked with various Canadian ski schools and I have been hugely impressed with their staffing and professionalism. Do you have any evidence of systemic quality of service problems in Canada similar to those found in France? It's precisely those quality of service issues which create the business opportunity for SB et al.

Yes I do. Percentage of lesson cost kept by the instructor more than halved, complaints up, repeat lessons down, percentage of lessons taken by lower level certs up. Admission from head of ski school you can't make a career out of being a ski instructor any more.
philwig wrote:

You're suggesting that the ESF is trying to restrict access to "gap year kids", when in fact it's trying to restrict access only to people who aren't trained through the French system, which is a different thing entirely. Your argument is wrong.

Who are the tour operators going to start employing and what are they going to pay when SB wins his case?
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Kenny wrote:
The grumbling here is "why did I bother paying a fortune to get these qualifications".

It does seem to cost a helluva lot.
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Quote:

Non-EU citizens can work within the EU.


In theory, yes. Very difficult in reality in most countries. Getting a visa to work in France for, e.g. Australians, is damn-near impossible if they don't have an EU passport (loads of Aussies, Kiwis, etc. out there working on the basis of Mum's or Dad's old British passport connection!).

You can get a working holiday visa easily enough, but generally for a limited time only and not renewable.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
irie wrote:
@dogwatch "The right to work and provide services within the EU is for EU citizens."

Non-EU citizens can work within the EU.


With very limited exceptions, not as a right.
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Kenny wrote:
Who are the tour operators going to start employing and what are they going to pay when SB wins his case?


Huh? TOs aren't generally in the business of employing instructors.

Quote:
Percentage of lesson cost kept by the instructor more than halved, complaints up, repeat lessons down, percentage of lessons taken by lower level certs up. Admission from head of ski school you can't make a career out of being a ski instructor any more.


Complaints aside, those are not service problems.


Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Tue 16-12-14 15:55; edited 1 time in total
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@Kenny,
Quote:

Who are the tour operators going to start employing and what are they going to pay when SB wins his case?

ESF instructors, EVO2 instructors, Qualified instructors (BASI 4) or lower level instructors (BASI L2 or L3) but only if employed by a ski school that's recognized as a"Qualification Center" i.e. employs at least 10 fully qualified instructors (regardless of being qualified through the French system or not). At least that's my understanding.
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dogwatch wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Who are the tour operators going to start employing and what are they going to pay when SB wins his case?


Huh? TOs aren't generally in the business of employing instructors.

SB does. TOs try to provide 'guiding' services now. The packages they provide generally include optional ski school (provided by the ESF) so not a great leap for them to start providing it themselves.
dogwatch wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Percentage of lesson cost kept by the instructor more than halved, complaints up, repeat lessons down, percentage of lessons taken by lower level certs up. Admission from head of ski school you can't make a career out of being a ski instructor any more.

Complaints aside, those are not service problems.

Shocked
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
laundryman wrote:
@Flaine skier, Simon Butler is a BASI L4/ISTD.

So why was he arrested?
Guess I'll have to read the start of the thread, I thought he was arrested because he wasn't qualified...?
I just had lessons in France from a UK L4 instructor last week, he didn't get arrested...
Confused.
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@Flaine skier,

1. There is some doubt over the validity of part of his qualification, specifically the race test (Eurotest). He was qualified early enough to have exemption from this test, but there seems to be some debate over whether he ever applied for his exemption and whether or not he did so on time. I have no idea how valid or otherwise this doubt is.

2. The biggie is that he was employing other instructors who were definitely not qualified to work in France as the French rules currently stand. French rules may (or may not) be in conflict with EU rules on free movement of workers.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Ok, just did some reading and it seems he is qualified but can't be bothered to get himself a license... ?

Puzzled

Even if you want to be a transfer driver you need to get the right licenses, why would someone think they don't need to to be licensed to do something that needs a license?
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@sugardaddy, wrong on the 'qualified anywhere' point for training centres, the French insist they are French-qualified.


Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Tue 16-12-14 17:08; edited 1 time in total
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Flaine skier wrote:
Ok, just did some reading and it seems he is qualified but can't be bothered to get himself a license... ?


He has a licence which included a MOU stamp for 2 years. Last season BASI wrote to him and withdrew his MOU stamp due to an 'error'. Within a couple of weeks he was arrested by the French because he didn't have a MOU stamp Puzzled
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@stevomcd, ok thanks, in that case he should get confirmation of exemption or just do the test...

@stewart woodward, even if it was an error, perhaps he should have waited until he got the license again?


Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Tue 16-12-14 17:12; edited 1 time in total
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@Flaine skier, don't believe everything you read on the internet!

I'd love to comment more, but the fact is that all this stuff is quite likely to come out in a Scottish court before too long.
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@Flaine skier, oops, crossed post.
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@laundryman, yes it is difficult to work out what is fact and what is made up with conflicting stories and opinions...
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TTT wrote:


New disciplinary procedures will be discussed at next BASI forum.


What new disciplinary procedures?

You posted this about 4 hrs ahead of the email saying it was on the topics list for presentation at the forum. Where was it previously mentioned and what did it say? The only thing I've seen is from the email which doesn't say very much
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@skison, don't you know by now I have special inside information? wink. I really don't remember - maybe I saw it on the basi members FB page but I don't think it said much if any more.
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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@skison, almost as if @TTT, had seen the email before it was sent, certainly they posted information before I received my email.

Very Happy Very Happy wink
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@TTT, are you now insinuating that BASI use FB for official communication before emailing members?
wink
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Can't find anything on it and not sure what needs changed. The change could be adding something rather than amending what is there I suppose. Or just changing how it operates?
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