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Thinking of going wider underfoot…

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Plenty of world cup SL skis made with rocker tips

..http://www.epicski.com/t/112404/benefit-of-rocker-for-race-skis


Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Sun 19-10-14 23:25; edited 1 time in total
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Which skins for 67mm skis?
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
You know, I sometimes think we get two sides missing each others points entirely when we talk about the merits or otherwise of fat skis on piste.

Markymark said this

"I don't agree, my WD Rangers CL's are 28m radius 108mm underfoot and driven hard they perform just as good and carve like any slalom ski IMO, they are super stable and tram-line like any carving ski when driven, surely that's what it's about, the skier not the ski?"

My first reaction was just to call dangly bits because no one I have seen can link short carved turns on hardpacked moderate (red/blue) angled pistes on 100mm+ skis. That to my mind is the test of whether you can carve.

But then I reasiled that I don't think markymark is really claiming that. I think he means that he can hold a precise carved line on his rangers. That I can believe. I totally agree that when you have set the edge of a fat ski you can carve that line and shape the turn through adding angulation etc.

The challenge though is the TRANSITION from leaving one carved arc to starting the other one. Sure, if you do this in very wide turns at very high speed it is fine. When the piste is softer it is easier, and you can go a bit tighter, because you don't have to be so precise - you can "feel" for the new edge a bit more. But to get over from one tightly carved turn to the next without some skarving when the piste is hard - I have literally never seen anyone achieving this on fat skis. To be clear, its unusual to see people managing it on piste skis.

Now you might reasonably feel that you don't care about this. You are quite happy to skarve around the piste between enjoying the offpiste. Fair enough. But that is not the same thing as saying that if you do want to take on the technical challenge of linking short carved turns on hard piste then you can do it on a pair of 110mm+ skis with a decent chance of success.

Incidentally I spend most of my ski days on 100mm skis so I totally accept that you can enjoy piste skiing on them!
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jedster,
Quote:

But then I reasiled that I don't think markymark is really claiming that. I think he means that he can hold a precise carved line on his rangers. That I can believe. I totally agree that when you have set the edge of a fat ski you can carve that line and shape the turn through adding angulation etc.

Exactly my point......you articulated it better than me though! wink
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yeah- I just don't think it is much of a test though - that's the easy bit!
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I remember taking a couple of lessona with Claude on the EOSBs, I shared them with Ronald. On the first I could do the long and medium turns ok but short turns were beyond me at speed on 98mm skis with a 19m turn radius. My tails were skidding all over the shop.

The next time I had some Kneissl White Stars with a 14m radius, now those were a revelation. Suddenly I could apply the lesson and begin to start learning how to really steer a ski into and through a turn.

My battered old SL's are 66mm underfoot and have a 12.3m radius, now they are so much fun on piste. For many years I was always happy with my fatter skis on piste but I do find that after a day of being able to whiz off in any direction at the drop of a hat my Nordicas do start feeling (if not like barges) then a little like those large power motorboats the rich swan about in Laughing


Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Tue 21-10-14 22:22; edited 1 time in total
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jedster, isn't the short turn thing highly dependent on ski geometry rather than just waist width. I mean you'd be hard pushed to do amazing short carved turns on a ski with a 30m turn radius regardless of the waist width.
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true enough Meh but it's not just geometry. Both my 100mm and 75mm waist skis have about an 18m radius - kind of tightish GS. Of course both of them can be bent to carve a lot tighter turns than 18m (despite the skinnier stocklis being very stiff) if you get enough angulation. I can carve a tight turn on the 100mm skis although edge grip is a little compromised if it's hard. What I can't do is get over from one tight carve to the next with smoothness, speed and precision (unless the piste conditions are flattering). It takes complete commitment to do it and if you are marginally off you get serious chatter problems so the percentage choice is to back off and skarve the entry into the next turn. Of course that works fine but it just isn't the same feeling.
You can tell from the fact that my fatter skis have quite a lot of shape that I like to play with the technical stuff when the offpiste is crappy or I'm just using the pistes to get to the next bit of offpiste. It's partly been a function of hauling skis around with me and so wanting a single pair to be something that is a bit of an allrounder. When I'm skiing with my kids (say 70/30 on/off piste) the skinnier stocklis are much more fun. When I'm skiing with my mates its 20/80 and I prefer the Lines.

Now I'm able to leave my stuff in the mountains and choose what I ski on by the day I will probably getter a straighter, less compromised ski for offpiste. Question is what, particularly as I'll probably bit the bullet of tech bindings meaning new boots and quite a chunk of cash out. But that is another thread!
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meh wrote:
jedster, isn't the short turn thing highly dependent on ski geometry rather than just waist width. I mean you'd be hard pushed to do amazing short carved turns on a ski with a 30m turn radius regardless of the waist width.
I skied a pair of Armada JJs a couple of years ago, which I think had r=12m with a 115mm waist. Simply no way I could get them to perform like any kind of slalom ski with a similar turn radius (not that the JJs were designed to ski on piste like a slalom ski). I think a fairly simple comparison of a ski's statistics can be misleading. Much better, if you can, to demo the skis you are interested in to see how they perform for you, rather than how they perform for a magazine or online reviewer.
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rob@rar, sure but there's even more off there as the JJ is also rockered in the tip and tail. My point was for more similar skis for example the difference between a proper slalom and GS ski. Similar underfoot but you're not going to be conquering awesome short carved turns as specified above on the GS ski. Mine was an argument against jedster's ideal rather than a general statement.

jedster, GS skis have a much bigger radius than 18m.
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Quote:

Simply no way I could get them to perform like any kind of slalom ski with a similar turn radius


You can get a decent short turn out of the JJ on anything other than real hardpack. Obviously it isn't like a real slalom ski but then it is 115mm underfoot. You can also get a solid carved turn out of them as well. You have to be very, very quick in transition between turns and get them a long way up on edge quickly.
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The magic 98.
I have 98 now (with a decent side cut) and love them everywhere, only on a Big Big day do I crave something fatter. However, I would urge caution, my first bigger skis were 98 not rockered and with I think a 28m radius. Now they were great on big open snow fields of soft stuff, but inevitably I/one ends up at some point every day on something a bit gnarly, where you need to be 100% confident that you can get your skis round before the, tree, rock, hole, whatever, and this wasn't the case with them, and I ended up hating them. I think it was Zag who started the fat ski with a big side cut and they took some getting used to, of course rockers change everything. I don't know where I'm going with this except to reinforce, try before you buy.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
jbob, in 3D snow sidecut doesn't have a huge amount to do with how quickly you can turn though; I think sour problem would have been the lack of rocker.

A straight or even )particularly!) reverse sidceut ski with rocker can be pivoted much quicker and more easily than one with a big sidecut. Deep sidecut is generally a bad thing offpiste. IMO at least.
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gorilla wrote:
Obviously it isn't like a real slalom ski but then it is 115mm underfoot.
Agreed, and that was the point I was making. Just because a ski like the JJ is quoted has having a tight turn radius it doesn't mean it is going to behave similarly to other skis with the same r figure (which in the main are quite turny piste skis like a traditional slalom ski). As others have said, try before you buy...
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
"jedster, GS skis have a much bigger radius than 18m. "

That just isn't true meh

e.g., stoeckli laser gs 180cm -r18.2 - that's a pretty classic GS ski
http://www.stoeckli.ch/int-en/stockli-markenwelten/ski/product-line/laser-gs
Now I know the pros will be something a bit longer (and less turny) but 16-22 is quite typical for a GS ski.

BTW I agree that the sidecut on my line prophet 100s compromises deep snow performance a bit in order to make them a better tool on piste. Still the float makes life pretty easy. I haven't yet tried a reverse sidecut rocker but get the point that they may be a better compromise.
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jedster wrote:
"jedster, GS skis have a much bigger radius than 18m. "

That just isn't true meh

e.g., stoeckli laser gs 180cm -r18.2 - that's a pretty classic GS ski
http://www.stoeckli.ch/int-en/stockli-markenwelten/ski/product-line/laser-gs
Now I know the pros will be something a bit longer (and less turny) but 16-22 is quite typical for a GS ski.

BTW I agree that the sidecut on my line prophet 100s compromises deep snow performance a bit in order to make them a better tool on piste. Still the float makes life pretty easy. I haven't yet tried a reverse sidecut rocker but get the point that they may be a better compromise.


No it's not. A GS ski is a ski for GS races. A ski for GS races has a 27m+ radius. Even prior to the new rules they were mid 20s.

16-22 is a piste ski marketed as a GS ski but which isn't really anything like one. Not saying those skis are bad, they're just quite simply not GS skis.

Who was it commenting on ski names on another thread recently..?
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When you go over the "magic 98" what benefit do you really get ?. The soft tip/rocker stops the tip diving in deeper snow ? How much "float" do they really give in the fresh snow as I would say most ski in quite deep fresh snow, but "on " the base. Fresh snow as opposed to bottomless powder very few experience ..
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limegreen1 wrote:
When you go over the "magic 98" what benefit do you really get ?. The soft tip/rocker stops the tip diving in deeper snow ? How much "float" do they really give in the fresh snow as I would say most ski in quite deep fresh snow, but "on " the base. Fresh snow as opposed to bottomless powder very few experience ..


135 underfoot makes 20cms feel bottomless, as you are totally floating and not on the base.

At 118mm you still feel the base quite a lot in the same conditions.

At 100mm you need upwards of 40cm to not feel the base unless you are REALLY charging.
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a bit of girth helps with breakable crust too, although tip shape/rocker are important there too
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Quote:

When you go over the "magic 98" what benefit do you really get ?.


The ability to really haul ass in deeper snow at a lower ability level.
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and the wider you go, the less deep you get and the less chance of face shots!!
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kitenski wrote:
and the wider you go, the less deep you get and the less chance of face shots!!


I'd rather be "in" it than "on" it too ! .... But to do that well and enjoy it, you could say you have to be "on it" to get "in it" ...
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With wider skis you can also have more taper? In all my impression of wider skis is that they ski in a much more surfy way but that's also due to their geometry.

On the in-it, on-it thing it depends on how you ski. For example at 2:15 in this video I'm getting snow way over my head and am definitely in it on 128 underfoot:
Yet Another Pretentious Travel-Ski Edit - Japan from Charles Palmer
http://vimeo.com/61605376#t=135s

Follow the link to skip.


Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Fri 24-10-14 17:30; edited 2 times in total
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clarky - what you are saying is that only an FIS spec ski is a GS ski. That's a point of view but its not fact. And it was only a few years ago that 22m radius was legal for FIS! So you are right that today for FIS competition radii are bigger
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"At 100mm you need upwards of 40cm to not feel the base unless you are REALLY charging." totally contingent on skier weight and ski length natch
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GS is a discipline entirely regulated by the FIS. A ski can be called a GS ski to market the thing and not be a GS ski (as in you wouldn't be allowed to ski in a GS race on them).

Colloquially the former are known as "cheater GS" skis.


Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Fri 24-10-14 17:50; edited 1 time in total
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Plenty of low level racers start by using SL skis for GS races. They are definitely not a GS ski though Laughing
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jedster wrote:
"At 100mm you need upwards of 40cm to not feel the base unless you are REALLY charging." totally contingent on skier weight and ski length natch
And perhaps more contingent on the nature of the snow than anything else. Featherlight japow is going to be different from sludgy, spring powder. Plenty of fun to be had skiing nice snow with stick-thin skis, it's just a different experience to skiing the same snow on fat, rockered behemoths. Best day's skiing I had last season was on 78mm waisted skis skiing unexpectedly knee-deep snow in Morzine. Was like this for most of the day:

https://vimeo.com/85041345
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rob@rar, That just looked so much fun Smile
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 Poster: A snowHead
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I think that's the word Scarpa ... " fun" !
Fat , thin, In it or on it you've just got to be smiling and having fun ...
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rob@rar, I remember spending 3 weeks one winter 7 years ago in a little place called Fernie up to my balls in pow on 78mm Scott Aztec Pros. They were a great powder ski back in the day. Geometry and flex behaviour just as important as width really snowHead
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Sharkymark wrote:
Geometry and flex behaviour just as important as width really snowHead
Indeed. I think ski designers are producing skis which are much more diverse across the market that they were 10 or 15 years ago, so all the more reason to test as many pairs as you can to find something which gives you the most fun, for most of the time considering the skiing that you do.
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clarky999 wrote:


At 100mm you need upwards of 40cm to not feel the base unless you are REALLY charging.


Most deflating feeling in skiing, getting up at crack of sparrows , taking first lift, diving into that virgin foot of fresh, going back bottom over tit as it's not quite deep enough to compensate for the refrozen moguls underneath but you can't see the barstewards.
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Dave of the Marmottes, you need to ski with your feet.
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Yeah yeah but powder stoke gets to me plus the groomed piste (with the same fresh on top) is genuinely more fun in those conditions. Once the bumps have a couple of tracks on them to aid definition they are way easier.
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Dave of the Marmottes, always a disappointment. Got a bit of video of what I thought was going to be some lightly chopped powder, so decided to do some quick medium radius turns. It was only when I realised that my knees were working overtime that I realised it was a wee bit bumpy underneath. Gutted!

https://vimeo.com/77849806
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rob@rar, gotta love Mont Chery, right?
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under a new name, I don't think it was (although I do). IIRC it was to skier's left of Chaux Fleurie.
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rob@rar, ahhh, that makes more sense, I was unsure about the pine tree angle in the last few seconds. Now I'm not snowHead
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