 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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boredsurfin, I believe there has been previous speculation that Schumi's helmet mounted Go-Pro camera was a contibuting factor in his injuries. It'll maybe make some Go-Pro users think about mounting their camera elsewhere. After all, the primary and most important purpose of a helmet is to protect one's head, not to be a camera mount!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Perhaps these need to be redesigned to collapse on impact.
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Common sense says don't mount anything on your helmet unless the helmet manufacturer designed it so. After all we have always been advised not to put stickers on helmets in case they damage the structure.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I wonder if they really know this or just suspect it. GoPro's lawyers must be twitching.
The sticker thing always struck me as complete dangly bits, there may be scientific questions with regard to the adhesives used but look at all the world class competitors with helmets and skis covered in sponsor stickers - they'd never get insurance if there was even a tiny risk.
The standard forehead positioning of a GoPro does raise questions though, personally I always much prefered the look of bullet cams that mount further back and I think in a fall they are less likely to be the point of impact. Tried a side mounted one on a Google strap once but far too heavy.
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If true then maybe Gopro will be GoBroke !
Maybe it is something helmet company's could work at with GoPro and all the other makers for a std mount that is integrated into the helmet design with a cheap replaceable break attachment for the camera that would leave the integral mount intact and a flush surface to the helmet to minimise any risk of injury.
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boredsurfin, 2nd article no comprehend.. but i dont see how a piece of plastic or protrusion on a helmet caused his injury. i understand you are just adding an article for people to see so i have no issue with that. but the actual articles do not add any more facts or statements of value than it was the 'fault' of the go pro mount.
as strong as a go pro mount may be i seriously doubt that this was the reason to the severity of the accident. i have a go pro and i dont think this will stop me using a helmet mount- i do use chest and poles.
i feel for the family but i would like to hear go pro's view on this.
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The French authorities tested a similar GoPro mounted helmet at part of the investigation. The conclusion was the GoPro mount may change the way the helmet reacts to an impact, in the tests the helmets split rather than deforming.
The second article linked to seems to imply something different though (or maybe just a variant on the above theme). The GoPro was impacted and the mount or pillar applied excessive pressure in one part of the helmet. Again this seems like a possibility to be investigated; you are going from a spherical smooth helmet whos job is to spread the shock over a wide area and deform to absorb energy to having something with quite a small surface area on it being potentially impacted.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Sounds very believable. How could it not make a difference?
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davidof, Yep, as reported in the link I gave in my previous post "Experts from ENSA, the world-renowned ski and climbing academy in the French ski resort of Chamonix, have conducted tests to determine whether the presence of a solid object between a helmet colliding with a rock would weaken the structure."
It seems to me perfectly possible that whereas the helmet shell in an impact might normally deflect slightly (say a mm or so and then recover) fixing a rigid mount to it could cause the stress at the edges of the rigid mount to be increased to the point where the shell cracks, and once a crack is initiated it can rapidly propagate further whilst the helmet shell is still experiening loading forces.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I don't remember any report that his helmet had broken, an injury can be caused by the mount catching on something and suddenly stopping the head moving.
Camera mounts are banned from racing helmets, though I haven't seen a race official stop someone with one yet, I was told a couple of years ago that FIS had given instructions to be strict with this.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
The sticker thing always struck me as complete dangley bits,
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There was a problem with polycarbonate crash helmets being painted or having stickers applied where the solvents in the paint or plasticisers in the adhesive could cause stress cracking of the polymer shell which would shatter on impact. some stickers could be helmet friendly or helmets could be sticker resistant, best to leave well alone
Re the gopro mount, try putting on a thick headband and gently headbutt a wall, then stick a small hard object in the middle of the headband, headbutt the wall again and feel the difference.
This event and the realisation that no-one really wants to watch your gopro footage anyway, will probably see a drop in helmet mount sales
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| rjs wrote: |
| I don't remember any report that his helmet had broken... |
It broke into three pieces according to this report.
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You know it makes sense.
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albinomountainbadger, I can't for the life of me remember who it was that told me, but it was many, many months ago now that someone told me that his injuries had been contributed to by the GoPro mount on the helmet. I never really knew one way or another, but if it is the case then I am surprised it has taken this long to come to the attention of the media.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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1 recreational helmets are not designed for extreme impacts the way competition helmets are
2 would anyone with any common sense at all really attach metal structure (attached to a bigger and heavier piece of metal) INSIDE their helmet to clamp it on - and then ski fast off piste in an area with limited snow cover? Sorry - wish him the best but not sensible....
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Poster: A snowHead
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| speed098 wrote: |
If true then maybe Gopro will be GoBroke !
Maybe it is something helmet company's could work at with GoPro and all the other makers for a std mount that is integrated into the helmet design with a cheap replaceable break attachment for the camera that would leave the integral mount intact and a flush surface to the helmet to minimise any risk of injury. |
Giro now do a helmet with an integrated GoPro Mount (Giro Edit I believe). Could be a bit awkward for Giro if one of the features of their helmet actually make it less safe!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Handy Turnip wrote: |
| speed098 wrote: |
If true then maybe Gopro will be GoBroke !
Maybe it is something helmet company's could work at with GoPro and all the other makers for a std mount that is integrated into the helmet design with a cheap replaceable break attachment for the camera that would leave the integral mount intact and a flush surface to the helmet to minimise any risk of injury. |
Giro now do a helmet with an integrated GoPro Mount (Giro Edit I believe). Could be a bit awkward for Giro if one of the features of their helmet actually make it less safe! |
I would expect a company with Giro's experience and brand recognition to have tested the integrated mount to at least the same safety std's as the rest of the helmet.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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And into two according to this one: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/10543941/Schumachers-ski-helmet-broke-in-two-in-high-speed-crash.html
It all sounds incredible to me. I'd like to see some actual evidence, this is all gossip.
The physics seems incredible - helmets are broadly designed to break on impact - that's evidence for the thing working, not what the journalists think it means.
As a snowboarder I'd guess I've more chance of spearing myself on my GoPro pole than you have of killing yourself with your helmet mount. Compared to the risk of driving to the slopes, I'd take risk of death from GoPro any day.
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[quote="speed098"]
| Handy Turnip wrote: |
| speed098 wrote: |
Giro now do a helmet with an integrated GoPro Mount (Giro Edit I believe). Could be a bit awkward for Giro if one of the features of their helmet actually make it less safe! |
I would expect a company with Giro's experience and brand recognition to have tested the integrated mount to at least the same safety std's as the rest of the helmet. |
Completely agree, you'd definitely hope so. But do they test the helmet with a gopro attached as well?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Actually, just read that it seems to be just the mounting that is the issue rather than the gopro itself (which I know is what you said!), so you'd think the helmet would be tested and fine.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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If its an integrated component then they have to check it adheres to insurance standards as it is sold as a helmet.
The attachable mounts are different , and then you have what the mount allows for.. The scourge of third party litigation thanks to the US of A will see go pro, I would think in time, take a hammering....
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| Saint wrote: |
| 1 recreational helmets are not designed for extreme impacts the way competition helmets are |
What do you consider to be recreational? Class B? I believe mine is a Class A [must check] which is no different to competition level. I know FIS rules cover the holes allowed, but I did actually have freestyle in my mind when writing the original comment and none of their helmets looks any different to a publicly available one. FIS require the standard CE1077 rating and in the US Freestyle regs it's that or the US equivalent AST 2040. There doesn't seem to be any information on which class Schumacher was wearing, but I suspect budget wouldn't be one if his concerns.
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Ruroc of Darth Vader helmet fame also have an integrated mount in some helmets, it's right above the eyes under a removable visor.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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albinomountainbadger, Racing helmets are Class A plus an extra test at a higher speed.
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rjs, what's that called on the label? To distinguish a race helmet from a lookalike? I have zero interest in lycra based skiing, but useful to know.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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albinomountainbadger, Rules are here.
The label needs to include the text "Racing helmet conform to FIS specifications 2013".
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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The problem with stickers, regardless of adhesives, is that they can hide any damage to the helmet below the sticker.
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Whilst I have very little doubt that cameras, stickers and other similar modifications to the original design of the helmet could alter it's actual performance I doubt very much that the outcome would have been any different in this particular accident.
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You know it makes sense.
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Is it not something to do with torsional forces? and torsional impacts.
POC make a big deal over having helmets to with stand torsional movements better. Their outsides are very smooth
Think a go pro sticking out would be problematic
Since reading all the poc stuff, I've always shuddered a bit at helmet casing/covers.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| philwig wrote: |
| As a snowboarder I'd guess I've more chance of spearing myself on my GoPro pole than you have of killing yourself with your helmet mount. Compared to the risk of driving to the slopes, I'd take risk of death from GoPro any day. |
Why? What's so great about producing the 1,000,000-ish unwatchable GoPro video?
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Poster: A snowHead
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I'm comparing the relative risk of two things, neither of which is particularly large. I guess I didn't make my point well enough, which is something like: "people are often poor at assessing risk, more so when the risk is small and the consequence large, and they become completely irrational when celebrity is involved".
As to your question, why not ask someone who produces unwatchable video? I found "The English Patient" entirely unwatchable; Saul Zaentz produced that one. Maybe try asking him? I guess he'd say that he did it for the money.
I don't believe anyone here doesn't understand the motivation behind GoPro videos. Facebook aside, pressing "play" is entirely optional, I believe.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| philwig wrote: |
| Saul Zaentz produced that one. |
He didn't risk the contents of his cranium to do it.
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| I don't believe anyone here doesn't understand the motivation behind GoPro videos. |
I don't.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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dogwatch, at this time there is no evidence to support the point that wearing a camera, gopro or other camera ( and in fact I suspect that the other bullet cam have a greater tendency at least on a technical basis) to cause rotational brain injuries.
As for the motivation, the vast majority of videos are captured are purely for personal use, the same as still cameras, phone camera images and videos.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| ansta1 wrote: |
| dogwatch, at this time there is no evidence to support the point that wearing a camera, gopro or other camera ( and in fact I suspect that the other bullet cam have a greater tendency at least on a technical basis) to cause rotational brain injuries. |
There are several posts above citing studies that contradict that assertion. "No evidence" is clearly wrong. Whether evidence is conclusive or needs to be conclusive is a matter of judgement.
| Quote: |
| As for the motivation, the vast majority of videos are captured are purely for personal use |
The vast majority? I don't think so.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Will agree with you on the conclusive bit.
As for the personal use, gopro alone have sold over 8million cameras, add on the other brands of action cams, video recorders and camera phones, I'd say that the majority of people only share them with their friends, it's Facebook and other social meedja that makes them visible to the wider audience would be my guess in a lot of cases.
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| ansta1 wrote: |
As for the personal use, gopro alone have sold over 8million cameras, add on the other brands of action cams, video recorders and camera phones, I'd say that the majority of people only share them with their friends, it's Facebook and other social meedja that makes them visible to the wider audience would be my guess in a lot of cases. |
I agree, if i do a ski video then it's to share with my friends (ie the people that went on the trip), and the easiest way to share it is by posting the video on youtube\vimeo. It also means that if other friends and family want to view then it's easy for them to do so. That fact that the wider public can then view them is just added consequence of this, not the intended purpose.
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So go pro'ing is a personal choice. What I don't get is the denial here of the risk. A bit odd!
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This isn't new news. Didn't the French Public Prosecutor conclude the same with his initial report in the weeks after the accident?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| PeterGee wrote: |
| So go pro'ing is a personal choice. What I don't get is the denial here of the risk. A bit odd! |
By whom?
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Evidence? Well, like a greater incidence of head injuries where the cause was impact of GoPro on brain, for example? In my experience, most journalism is inaccurate. In this case it's contradictory and doesn't reference any primary sources.
If people find something scary, perhaps they should not do it. It's not compulsory. Ditto watching internet video - it's hardly compulsory, and there is an awful lot of it.
In the real world, I just rode into work through sheets of rain with my helmet cam running as usual. It's not a GoPro, and I'm not a celebrity. In a crash (I have them now and then), the camera is designed to break away. The helmet is designed to slow the deceleration by deforming and possibly breaking. The video is unwatchable and unwatched... except when some stupid motorist tries to kill me, in which case it's my witness.
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FAQ
