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riding the downhill edge, video request, snowHeads ski forum
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riding the downhill edge, video request

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
One of the b.a.s.i. exercise to train edge control and get better at carving is to ride the downhill edge. The.first step to learn how to do this is the following pattern:
From a toeside diagonal (regular rider, so facing the top of the mountain) change to the heel edge, hold this for a couple of seconds and then back to toe edge (always remaining in a straight diagonal line, without making a turn). I struggled a lot get this done the first times i tried!
Can you help me in finding a video of this exercise?
Thanks a lot!
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
I haven't looked for a video, but I would make a few comments (based on my non-expert opinion).

Firstly, if your downhill edge will be your heel edge (as you've described) then this exercise will probably be more difficult the more across (i.e. perpendicular to the fall line) the slope you're going, because you'll probably feel like you're leaning backwards down the hill. It might be easier to do it the other way first i.e. from heel edge, change to the downhill toe edge.

When you say 'without making a turn', do you mean a full turn (i.e. you end up going back across the slope in the opposite direction) or any amount of turn at all? If you're holding an edge for several seconds then you will be turning to some extent (unless you are fairly in line with the fall line and can afford to only hold a very tiny edge).
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Hi mudkicker!
Yes you must practise this exercise on both ways, since the goal is to be able to do an earlier edge change when carving, both on fs and bs turns.
I meant without making full turn, the "wo turning" was to explain that when i say to change edge, i mean something different than normal edge change that you do when you ride and turn.
Well i't true that the board tend to turn due to its radius, but you can hold a diagonal straight line as long as you want. Usually in the exercise you start with holding the downhill edge only for a few seconds because of the scary sensation.

I do am sorry for my poor english, i know i can't explain myself very well (that's why i requested a video), i'm working on it!
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Unfortunately I haven't seen any videos like this so can't help you out!
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Sounds like you would fall over once you were on the "wrong" edge unless you initiated a turn, I can't imagine traversing on the downhill heal edge. I'm keen to see a video of this.
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You would just need to be carrying enough speed to hold you up. So perhaps look at it the other way around: if you're going to turn at high speed, you will necessarily be loading the downhill edge. So ride faster, edge harder, and you'll be there. If you look at your track from a chair lift later, you should easily be able to see where the transitions are from the pattern in the snow.
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I remember taking a lesson and trying this. The instructor explained it, demonstrated it, fell over, we tried it, fell over, repeat as necessary until fed up and moved onto something else.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
You could just carve a circle - there should be plenty of videos of people doing that.

I think the whole thing has a risk of confusing cause and effect though. You perhaps need to get better at engaging the edge ("carving"), at which point this is not an issue.
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Time for a pearoast...

Mercilessly ripped from other places, these cheeky comrades show how to slalom on the deck...
fast forward to about 1m20 to cut to the chase, you may want to mute the music too...
CAUTION: contains scenes of extreme Euro-carving and blatant high-fives.
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The point of the exercise is to develop quick, precise edge changes. It's definitely possible to do cleanly. Start with just engaging the new edge, then going straight back to the old (uphill) edge. Make sure you're moving your whole body across the board, not just tweaking your ankles. Holding a completely straight line is super-hard though. A bit of a "garland" shape is pretty-much inevitable for mortals.

It's very relevant to all kinds of turns, not just carving.
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I defy anyone to do this "[OP Comment] always remaining in a straight diagonal line", and await video proof to be defied.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Well mate, if you are waiting me.. it will be a long wait, since "my" slopes (Madonna di Campiglio skiarea) are not opening till late November (hopefully)-early December..
If you get the chance just ask any B.a.s.i. Isia or Istd, they'll perform it with no bothers..
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stevomcd wrote:
A bit of a "garland" shape is pretty-much inevitable for mortals.
Isn't the whole point of the drill to create a garland track? Engage the new edge, follow the turn momentarily and then return to the old edge, and repeat? Same exercise for skiers, although less intimidating than doing this heel side on a board.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
rob@rar, you get extra ninja points if you can hold a straight line, but I agree, it's not really necessary. The turn should be separate from the edge change, so it's good skills to be able to hold the edge without starting the turn.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
It's not just possible it's also good fun
A month or so ago myself and a bunch Of chillfactore shredders spent an evening working on variations of this

Mini
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Cool mini, could you link me some vodeos of it?
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
So is there a recomended slope angle for this exercise ?
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
hsdee, moderate blue run would be about best. Or indoor-slope gradient (which is about moderate blue...).
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I've been reading this with a bit of confusion . . . I can roll from edge to edge straight down the fall line and often do this with a gentle cross-under to avoid any possibility of an edge catch. I can hold a straight diagonal across the fall line on the inside edge . . . but I can't see how I can roll onto the downhill edge whilst in a traverse and not begin to turn. The physics of the board, the stiffness of my boots and the fact that you cannot gently 'smear' a downhill edge when it's pointing the sharp bit into the line of travel ????

WTF am I missing here?


Beyond that what's the f'n point of doing this?
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Masque, it is possible to do it (ride the downhill edge without starting a turn). Just because one can't do it, doesn't not mean it is impossible! wink

A degree of pedalling and finding the fore-aft sweet-spot for your weight is generally required. As you say, harder with a very stiff setup.

The point is to develop a strong and precise edge-change. If you can change the edge strongly and get edge grip before you start your turn, then you're in a good position to have strong edge-grip all the way around the turn = awesome turn. Most people you see riding around don't get any grip at all until well after they pass the fall line (not suggesting everyone is riding around trying to do their awesomest, grippiest turns at all times!).
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stevomcd, If I'm not carving I'm stopping wink Don't have a problem in achieving a fast edge change through transition though like skiing this is primarily achieved by isolating upper and lower body at the hip and driving the lead leg.

I think I see now that in softening (pedalling off) the trailing leg, the edge behind the centre can smear and keep the traverse as a straight line as long as we angulate at the hip ( a gentle and slight 'cross-under'). I can see it as an instructor skill to demonstrate fine edge control timing to a novice bulldozer but . . . actually there isn't a but . . . I'll give it a play this winter. . . Toofy Grin
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stevomcd, How steep would the diagonal be ? Presumably you would start steep and then go shallow to make it even harder ? I'd imagine that one issue would be that people would adopt odd upper body posture so they don't topple to the new inside ?

A video would be good to see.
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Masque wrote:
... If I'm not carving I'm stopping ... this is primarily achieved by isolating upper and lower body at the hip ...

I suspect that's not the mechanism they'll be teaching though.

You can I'm sure easily rock from edge to edge in any direction, so long as you don't pressure the edge - perhaps that's what the OP is talking about. If that's it, then those are almost little micro turns where you barely pressure the edge so you don't actually turn - the track in the snow would be a straight line with the edge pressured alternately.

It's almost impossible to discuss stuff like this without watching people ride.
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stevomcd wrote:
hsdee, moderate blue run would be about best. Or indoor-slope gradient (which is about moderate blue...).


hmmmm, I can see the need to be able to switch edges to the downhill one when traversing for initiating turns, for carving, for quick slide turns etc. I can see the need to be able to recover from this if something causes you to change your mind and requires one to get back onto the uphill edge. I can see this concept being incredibly confusing for beginner mediums who should be concentrating on staying on the uphill edge, falling into the turn and then changing edges to finish. Not sure I would ever even try and teach this as it kind of comes naturally as the confidence and speed builds. However willing to try anything and once the snow starts falling i will give it a go this winter and won't stop till i've nailed it on a black mogul run.
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hsdee, even beginners should very quickly be moving to an early edge change, no? The "basic turn", with an edge change at the fall line, is for your first few turns, not a technique you should hang on to.
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however thinking some more about the physics of this in particular centre of gravity the limiting factor has to be ankle flex, for example if one is on a 20degree slope and ones ankles can flex to 22 degrees one can keep ones centre of gravity over the board and the edge and so it will be possible, if however ones ankles only flex to 18 degrees then Newton wins. Being quite a long way down the evolutionary scale with ankle flex akin to a tree climbing primate I think my above stated goal may be possible wink
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
I think your error is assuming that everything comes from ankle flex - most people would be doing quite a bit more than that. Perhaps that's the point of the exercise, to make that point?
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Is anyone claiming to have ever tried this or successsfly executed this manouver, or has anyone seen it being done? If so was the position held with stability?

Come the first snow fall I can see us all trying this and expect a few face plants.

Gold star for the first one to post a video holding the position for 5 seconds.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Quote:

holding the position for 5 seconds.


without turning!
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Designing my reverse sidecut board right now.

philwig, you're right, i forgot to factor in the arm flapping torques.

stevomcd, i disagree, i think beginners have enough to think about staying upright, trying to maintain a good stance, trying not to catch an edge, trying not to let the board race down the hill out of control, trying not to lose an edge, etc, and so should not be thinking of early edge changes as this will come later and somewhat naturally to most as they gain confidence, but i will agree that an edge change at the fall line is not always suitable and limiting as ones riding progresses.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
hsdee wrote:
..philwig, you're right, i forgot to factor in the arm flapping torques. ...

If you're flapping your arms about then I think this is perhaps not the exercise to start with.

Angulation.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
"When a snowboard is sliding and not carving, it can be reasoned that the snowboard is moving in a composite of two directions: across the hill and down the hill. Never try to change edges while sliding, the downhill edge will catch if you try to put any weight on it. When a snowboard is carving, it is moving only in the direction it is pointing."
Cit. From bomber site, don't know if this helps!
JimboS i tried this a few times, i am able to ride the dh edge for a small amount of time, then i must change edge again, fear is my problem. But i saw our B.a.s.i. trainer doing this effortless.. but he was like a superhero, carving face down on soft gear, riding steeps with free foots (out of bindings)...
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Tried riding a board without bindings, just grip tape . . . tried it once . . . Still can't feel my left testicle.

Actually, once the initial tendency to lean is overcome and you start isolating at the hips with subtle pressure changes it's great fun . . . only managed a soft blue so far but I'll keep playing. A couple of kids @ Copper last winter were hitting the park without bindings, f'n mad but stunning to watch.
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Masque wrote:
Tried riding a board without bindings, just grip tape . . . tried it once . . . Still can't feel my left testicle. ...
You mean no boarding? Until a year or two back Burton used to sell no boards, although they were essentially fish with a rope and some decking.

I'm not very good at it, but it's fun to try and would disabuse people of some dogmatic approaches to snowboarding. I thought of doing it full time, but on balance I like a more rigid control interface so I'm only a dabbler at this point.

If it's damaging your testicles you may be doing it wrongly wink
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Ok here is a pic of me on my downhill edge, to try to keep this edge in a straight line you would need to get your CoG right back up over the board, how would you do that? Easier on you toe edge?

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Cool man!!
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I'm a little teapot, short and stout Twisted Evil

can't see any track so you could just be falling on yer butt . . . Toofy Grin
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Haha, here are the tracks, shot on Easter Sunday, April 20th this year.


http://youtube.com/v/I7_ehBsvpK8
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JimboS, do you want an analysis of that? (I'm a BASI2 instructor and have passed all but one module for my BASI4, including the top-level teaching/analysis part!).

If you'd rather I didn't, that's fine too!
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maddrifter, who was your trainer?
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