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Le Ski Chambery appeal rejected - No more ski hosting?

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Quote:

And in that exception lies, IMO, all the difference in the world. A legally competent adult should be able to make their own choices about who to follow around a mountain/up a rock/out to sea. An under 18 is not legally competent to make that decision


+1
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
mozwold wrote:
It's possible that the group I have skied with for the last couple of years may choose to go to l'Aple d'Huez in the coming season. Having been there half a dozen times, it's a resort I know very well.
If I 'guide' everyone by giving a quick tour on the first day, and the group leader buys me a pint afterwards, does that put me in the firing line? Puzzled


Probably best to ask the local French authorities (Gendarmerie, ESF etc.) for their opinion on that beforehand..... wink
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
It is worth remembering that no matter what our opinions are on how UK law works, the activity took place in France and French law applies. In this case skiing is much more regulated and the French Code du Sport applies.

It states it is illegal to entertain (animate) or lead people on snow for money unless the person doing so is an instructor or mountain guide, (in addition those qualifications would have to recognised as valid in France).

Is the service for payment? It does not matter if there is payment made directly to the guide or not, payment is made as part of the holiday price and the "guide" is paid as part of their salary, so yes it is for payment. Any waivers of responsibility against potential claims do not negate French law either.

Of course people like their "guided" skiing but fitting with local regulations is important too. My guess is (any knowledgeable help her would be appreciated) that this type of paid for activity would be strictly illegal in Italy, Switzerland and Austria too.
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mozwold wrote:
johnE,

It's possible that the group I have skied with for the last couple of years may choose to go to l'Aple d'Huez in the coming season. Having been there half a dozen times, it's a resort I know very well.

If I 'guide' everyone by giving a quick tour on the first day, and the group leader buys me a pint afterwards, does that put me in the firing line? Puzzled


Depends how you do it, if there are 20 people following you in a snake down the piste, then yes! However, I suspect the court would see a difference between 'I've been here before lads, let's go that way' and 'hi, I'm the stranger allocated to your group by admin in the head office, follow me'.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Mozwold - if you are just leading a group of friends about and you get a few free beers out of it and you yourself are paying for the holiday it comes under amateur rules, so go for gold!
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johnE wrote:
But the Lyme bay tragedy court case disagrees, http://www.independent.co.uk/news/boss-is-jailed-over-canoe-deaths-1386979.html. And the law was subsequently modified in the UK with the AALA being introduced. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adventure_Activities_Licensing_Authority

With the exception of only formally applying to under 18s I see little difference between guiding punters around ski slopes and leading a walking party above 600m, 30 minutes from a road.



However the Activity Centres (Young Persons’ Safety) Act does. On-piste skiing is an activity that does not require a licence. I imagine the rationale is that the resort is already providing safety cover.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Here is an interesting one; seeing as someone talked about tourist guides above. In Paris, to guide tourists around the place for money you need to be licensed. I don't know the exact details or qualifications. However there are dozens of guides who will show you around for free, they advertise in hotels and other accommodation. French TV followed one such guide around and he was talking complete nonsense, such as telling people Notre Dame is where French kings are buried (as any fule kno it is St Denis). The guide accepted tips at the end of the tour and was making 300 to 400 euros per day (that's more than a ski instructor). The TV company contacted the police department and the town hall for comments: "nuffink we can do about it guv, they guy is not being paid, the tips are voluntary".

I wonder how long you'd get away with this in the Savoies for ski instructing or just leading, be interesting for someone to try.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
davidof, I saw a report in this some time ago, my recollection is that they have to be licensed to access heritage sites or buildings, so for example a hooky guide can lead you around the gardens of Versailles but not inside the palace. Pretty sure there was payment as they said tickets were sold for this 'garden tour' (and to be certain to check if you buy as the small print will say garden but not palace).
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davidof, I saw Slumdog Millionaire as well.

Whoops, wrong country but the same basic idea
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An update from the Telegraph, concerning an appeal of the French hosting ban ...

"UK tour operators take ski hosting case to Paris supreme court"
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/snowandski/skiing-news/11075239/Ski-hosting-appeal-moves-to-Paris.html
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johnE wrote:
davidof, I saw Slumdog Millionaire as well.

Whoops, wrong country but the same basic idea


ah ok, never seen it.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Ok, so ski hosting contravenes current French law.
There are some English laws which have had to be changed because of the EU (like votes for prisoners).
So if somebody defines the route to get the Law changed (to differentiate between Teaching and mere Leading) and pursues that to the EU ct of Justice or wherever then we will make progress. Just leading people round pistes is no more skilled than taking tourists round Paris (though both can be superb and deserve respect) It just makes the journey more interesting. To debar anyone from it is in restraint of providing a legitimate service, be it paid or unpaid. So I hope someone can get the Law changed on an EU wide basis, though if the current Appeal succeeds in getting the two functions split in France that would be a good precedent and would be much easier to achieve. I haven't heard much from our Government in support of the T/O case and that's a bit disappointing.
I would not now choose France to ski except for certain small T/O alliegances and Courses which are based there.
Pam W .. I often say, wherever I am skiing,that if you took out the English voices the place would be pretty sparse, so I don't think we are minnows to be ignored.


Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Mon 15-09-14 19:19; edited 1 time in total
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Farley Goode, certainly there are some French ski resorts where there are big numbers of UK skiers (but many more where a British voice would be unusual) but probably not that many who are being "ski guided". The lack of British ski schools in Austria and Italy doesn't seem to stop people going to ski in those places because obviously that's not an important issue for them - just as the availability of ski guiding isn't an important issue for lots of travellers. There's a big range of countries, and regions, and towns and villages in which to ski though "free ski guiding" on the UK model is, like catered chalets, only available in a small handful of resorts. As you'll have seen from one of the other threads the Swiss authorities are also clamping down on some of the UK tour operators whose chalets do not comply with Swiss labour laws.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Farley Goode wrote:
though if the current Appeal succeeds in getting the two functions split in France that would be a good precedent


I'm not sure how the law as it currently stands is going to be changed by the French supreme court. EU legislation can be introduced at any stage of the court process, no need to wait for a possible appeal to the european courts. If anyone has seen the Chambery judgement they could say if any EU legislation has been raised already; French judges are quite able to take this on board if applicable.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
For clarification, SCGB Freshtracks has stopped the "warm-up day" with the leader in France and all skiing will be with the instructors/ guides - presumably putting up the prices accordingly ( I have not tried to compare with last year).

For resort Leaders I'd vote to put the Leaders into mufti instead of uniform and carry on as usual.
That's what one tour operator did the other year - don't know whether they've continued - but we were led efficiently around ski area and ate in good restaurants.

I don't see where the problem lies - we still have the odd private lesson ( NOT with ESF) and do more skiing than we manage when trying to work out piste maps. We have never been instructed by our tour co. ski hosts, or by SCGB resort leaders.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Farley Goode, The votes for prisoners ruling came from European court of human rights not the EU. The European court of human rights was established in 1959 by the Council of Europe. The UK was a founder signatoriy and had a major input onto the convention of human rights that the court upholds. It was set up, suprise, suprise to protect human rights in europe and to prevent the rise of mass abuse such as the Nazi party prior to the second world. The council now has 47 member states including 28 members of the EU. I think Belarus is the only country in european not a member of the council of europe and not signed up to the european convention of humqan rights.

I certainly disagree with you about preventing unqualified people doing whatever they want arguing it as a restraint on trade. I would like doctors treating me to be qualified, mountain guides to be qualified, tourist guides to know what they are showing me (and keep me safe).
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Comedy Goldsmith wrote:
davidof's last scoops

http://pistehors.com/little-big-station-23514322.htm - The 159 euro season pass
http://pistehors.com/france-loses-skiing-top-spot-for-2014-23514316.htm - France loses top spot for skiing (but it is worse in Austria!)
http://pistehors.com/australian-avalanches-23451240.htm - The little know Australian avalanches


thanks Comedy
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Nice one. Have linked to stories 1 and 2 on WTF, so you should get some clicks ...

https://www.facebook.com/groups/325182624251298/501344403301785/?comment_id=501398159963076&notif_t=group_comment
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Scrumpy wrote:

For resort Leaders I'd vote to put the Leaders into mufti instead of uniform and carry on as usual.

But resorts are giving them accommodation and lift pass, so would possibly like them to be visible?
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So with all these various court cases and the like how about an (International) Association of Voluntary Ski Hosts or similar? Me and Mrs SL have collectively spent some 200+ weeks skiing around EK, currently spending about 7 weeks a season there. Wouldn’t mind leading convivial folk around one day a week (clearly we find it difficult to make friends). Happy to take properly experience/equipped/skilled folk off piste as well as on. There must be other folk in similar positions dotted around the Alps.
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Farley Goode,

I think you might well be a minnow with an English voice that can be ignored.

I am hearing less English voices in the 3Vs, more German, Dutch and Eastern European and skiing days are holding up.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Stumbled upon this on the EU site while looking for something else, seems relevant here regarding qualifications and the example they use is even a ski instructor!

Quote:

Working abroad

Updated : 15/09/2014
Professional qualifications


If you want to work in another country you might need to get your professional qualifications (training and professional experience) officially recognised, if your profession is regulated in that country.

If you want to work in another country providing your services on a temporary basis you might need to send in a declaration in advance. If your profession is regulated and has public health or safety implications, you might be subject to a prior check of your qualifications.

Finding out whether or not a profession is regulated
To find out whether your profession is regulated in another EU country, you can use the regulated professions database. This database can tell you which professions are regulated in which countries and by which authorities. If you want to work as a baker in Germany, click on "Bäcker (DE)". You do need to know the name of the job in the local language.

If you don't find your profession in the database, you can contact the national contact points for professional qualifications in the country where you want to work. They can also help you to identify the competent authority and which documents you need to submit.

Situations you could face
Your profession is not regulated at home but it is in the other country

If your profession and the training for it is regulated in the country where you want to work, but not in your home country, you may have to prove that you have exercised your profession in your home country for at least 2 of the last 10 years before you can practise your profession or even provide your services temporarily in the new country.


Your profession is regulated at home but it isn't in the other country

If the profession you want to exercise is not regulated in your new country, you can practice it there under the same conditions as the nationals of that country.

Be careful. Although your profession may not be regulated as such in your new country, it might be considered part of another regulated profession. Always check with the authorities of the country you are going to whether or not your profession is regulated there. The national contact point for professional qualifications will help you identify the authority that can give you this information.

Sample story

Avoid problems by checking conditions before you start working

Moritz is a ski instructor in Austria wanting to teach in Ventron, a French ski resort. Before leaving for France, he checked in the regulated professions database whether ski instructor was a regulated profession in France. Not finding this profession there, he assumed that it was not regulated and started giving ski lessons in France.

During an inspection, he was told that he was not authorised to teach in France without first obtaining recognition of his professional qualifications. In France, ski instructor is part of the more generic profession of 'sport teacher'.


http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/work/work-abroad/recognition-of-professional-qualifications/index_en.htm
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
"In France, ski instructor is part of the more generic profession of 'sport teacher'."

Wow, so do they make tennis coaches do the Eurotest too?
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emwmarine wrote:
I am hearing less English voices in the 3Vs, more German, Dutch and Eastern European and skiing days are holding up.


Reckon you'll be hearing fewer Russian voices this season.

I can't say I've noticed the EK becoming any less like Surrey on the slopes and locals have told me occupancy is down.
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People may find the press release from the EU enlightening.

Quote:
Statement by Commissioner Barnier following his meeting with Malcolm Harbour MEP and Emma McClarkin MEP on ski instructors

I have just met with Malcolm Harbour MEP, Chair of the Committee on the Internal Market and Consumer Protection and Emma McClarkin MEP.

As I explained to them, I can't comment on the details of the Butler case as it's an ongoing legal case but suggesting the single market does not work for ski instructors is wrong.

There may be a few specific problems which need to be tackled on a case by case basis, but the facts are clear:

Ski instructors are a regulated profession in a number of Member States, such as Italy, Austria or France. This is in line with EU law.

There is an agreed procedure to be followed to have a qualification recognized in another Member State.

Around 35,000 professionals (doctors, nurses, architects, etc.) benefit from it every year (up from 25,000 few years ago).

Over 350 fully qualified British ski instructors have benefited from the recognition procedure and are currently established in France. (More British ski workers can exercise as seasonal workers.)

Since I have been Commissioner, I have pushed strongly for a specific European recognition mechanism for ski instructors to cut red tape, sparing ski instructors the administrative checks on their qualifications.

The recognition mechanism for ski instructors, a scheme backed by 11 Member States - including the UK, Italy, Austria and France - allows any fully qualified ski instructor who fulfils the conditions without any formality other than a declaration to:

work for any ski school;

provide private coaching, for example on a freelance basis;

Or to open their own ski school in any of those 11 member States.

I confirmed to both Malcolm Harbour and Emma McClarkin that my services have received complaints on the recognition of qualifications for ski instructors in France and we are investigating them, seriously and efficiently in the way we investigate all complaints."
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Just waffle. Nothing about the proportionality of the qualification criteria, which is the nub of the issue. Nothing about the effective discrimination over which schools can employ L2/3 instructors.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Quite, although it's perhaps best not to confuse the Le Ski case with the Simon Butler one; the latter hinges on the validity of his British qualifications where as the former presumably hinges on the necessity of qualifications (the staff have none).
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Quote:
Just waffle
but let's remember it's the EUs waffle.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Quote:

The recognition mechanism for ski instructors, a scheme backed by 11 Member States - including the UK, Italy, Austria and France - allows any fully qualified ski instructor who fulfils the conditions without any formality other than a declaration to:

work for any ski school;

provide private coaching, for example on a freelance basis;

Or to open their own ski school in any of those 11 member States.

outside France, how many British ski instructors have opened their own schools?
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
I am not sure everyone followed the argument I was putting forward in my last post. This was essentially that you do not need qualifications to show someone around piste runs as this is merely orientating people round the resort. People can get "free" piste maps that perform the same function. In this case I think being paid or qualified is irrelevant.

Off piste is a bit more open to argument. However, the case against the SCGB leader arrested in Val D'Isere is to me unsustainable.
Any one who has been with a group gets told at the start of the day the legal stuff that basically say you are responsible for your own safety and there is no legal liability etc - essentially there is no contract. No money changes hands. It is understood that as an adult you make your own mind up to follow or not.
The fact that the authorities required more time to present their case against the leader 6 months after the event rather points to the fact they are on a sticky wicket , or should that be an icy piste!

I use a guide when I require his experience, local knowledge to find the best off piste while being as safe as possible. That is my decision. The club is just a group of like minded people deciding to ski together being led by someone with a knowledge of the area. No action is being contemplated against anyone just going off piste, often ill-equipped, with friends. There is no logic that can get around this basic dichotomy. Action against the leader as a member of a club cannot be justified morally or legally.

The various legal battles will probably reduce my skiing in France this season to a couple of weeks at most. I do not feel the ESF and French authorities are treating me with any respect and do not want my had earned money filling their pockets.
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pam w wrote:
outside France, how many British ski instructors have opened their own schools?

No idea, but Julian Griffiths for one.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Mark1863 wrote:
Off piste is a bit more open to argument. However, the case against the SCGB leader arrested in Val D'Isere is to me unsustainable.
Any one who has been with a group gets told at the start of the day the legal stuff that basically say you are responsible for your own safety and there is no legal liability etc - essentially there is no contract. No money changes hands. It is understood that as an adult you make your own mind up to follow or not.
The fact that the authorities required more time to present their case against the leader 6 months after the event rather points to the fact they are on a sticky wicket , or should that be an icy piste!

I use a guide when I require his experience, local knowledge to find the best off piste while being as safe as possible. That is my decision. The club is just a group of like minded people deciding to ski together being led by someone with a knowledge of the area. No action is being contemplated against anyone just going off piste, often ill-equipped, with friends. There is no logic that can get around this basic dichotomy. Action against the leader as a member of a club cannot be justified morally or legally.


This is in France so any assumptions based on the English (and Welsh) legal view of contracts and civil responsibility are irrelevant. Consider for example there really isn't such a thing as a binding precedent in France* but that English law couldn't exist without it; with such fundamental differences at the outset it's impossible to look at matters in the same way.


*Pedants: I appreciate that this is massively complicated in detail, but just go with the overall Code law vs Common law idea for now...
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Quote:

Any one who has been with a group gets told at the start of the day the legal stuff that basically say you are responsible for your own safety and there is no legal liability etc - essentially there is no contract. No money changes hands. It is understood that as an adult you make your own mind up to follow or not.
The fact that the authorities required more time to present their case against the leader 6 months after the event rather points to the fact they are on a sticky wicket , or should that be an icy piste!


The French legal situation on liability is certainly very different compared with UK. e.g. If I go out with friends here rock climbing I am responsible for them legally as I hold a French diploma issued by the state. No contract, no money but I'm still liable and it's a criminal liability not a civil one.

Mark1863 If as a British holiday maker you want to show your bona fide friends round the pistes and you are not being remunerated (not the same as being paid) then you are entirely free to do so. The moment this is being done by a remunerated employee of a tour operator then unless they hold the appropriate / recognised qualification then they are breaking French law. A disclaimer here is not going to hold water. The SCGB leader from my French sources spent most of the winter season "guiding". They are very sure of their ground.

Quote:
I do not feel the ESF and French authorities are treating me with any respect and do not want my had earned money filling their pockets.


The British colonial era ended many years ago and the French authorities quite rightly feel that UK TOs and the SCGB are not treating their sovereign laws with much respect.
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marksavoie wrote:
The British colonial era ended many years ago


There are many countries who can rightfully disapprove of the Brits' colonial past, but the French aren't one of them wink
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Serriadh, they can certainly complain of English occupation!
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marksavoie wrote:

The SCGB leader from my French sources spent most of the winter season "guiding". They are very sure of their ground.


what do you mean by that?
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laundryman wrote:
Serriadh, they can certainly complain of English occupation!


Well, we can complain of occupation too (1066 and all that)! Toofy Grin
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
emwmarine wrote:
Farley Goode,

I think you might well be a minnow with an English voice that can be ignored.

I am hearing less English voices in the 3Vs, more German, Dutch and Eastern European and skiing days are holding up.
The French have a tendency to do this though... they pout and shrug and say, "Ok, so you don't like zis but we don't need you"
Courchevelski may not have quite the rouble turn-over this year that they've got used to. The French are always whinging that the Dutch bring everything in their Audis and don't spend in resort. That's part of the relative appeal of the Brits: they mostly fly in then buy and hire so their ancillary spend is high. Different countries' fortunes wax and wane and one day one of these changes will leave a gap that normally gets filled by Brits and CDA will start stamping their feet cos their margins are getting tight - no not empty resorts but all the profit is in the last 10-15% isn't it.

There may not be a huge swathe of British skiers saying "bloody Frenchies and their rules about who can tell me where to buy my hot chocolates" but there are a fair few saying so and far more importantly, this and other issues have resulted in a good few tour ops expressing their disenchantment and suggesting that they are starting to apply more of their efforts elsewhere. Again, this is nothing so obvious as 'Crystal pulls out of France' but, for one example: when did you ever hear the MD of a major Ski Operator dis one of their own destinations this publicly?
On France, Peter Tyler, MD of Neilson said rather than wrote:
"I think there's been some complacency there," he said. "Of course, if you want big mountains it's the place to go but prices have gone up massively and people don't want to pay €20 for sausage and chips served by a grumpy man in a cold restaurant.
Meanwhile, they're putting efforts into building up their roster in Andorra.
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Mark1863 wrote:
Off piste is a bit more open to argument. However, the case against the SCGB leader arrested in Val D'Isere is to me unsustainable.
Any one who has been with a group gets told at the start of the day the legal stuff that basically say you are responsible for your own safety and there is no legal liability etc - essentially there is no contract. No money changes hands.


That's a questionable conclusion. To be part of the group you have to be an SCGB member. Money changes hands and that's a contract. SCGB, as I understand it, contributes to the living expenses of the guide. That, arguably, is a contract.
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laundryman wrote:
Serriadh, they can certainly complain of English occupation!


Pfft. They started it by invading Aquitaine!
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