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Down or synthetic?

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Thinking of getting a midlayer and not sure whether to go for real down or a synthetic one. I think one of the main things will be that I want it to be light and low bulk yet still warm. I don't want it to be very 'puffy' if you know what I mean. I don't think it will get wet much. Also not sure whether to get a full jacket or just a gilet, any thoughts there? How much heat do you lose/warmth do you need on your arms?

Thanks Smile
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Gilet is usually enough for skiing. Uniqlo used to do good ones that were superlight packable. If you tend to get very cold, go for Down.
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Funnily enough I find shedding heat more a problem skiing than retaining it. If I wear a mid layer at all it is a fibre.

Having said that my wife and I recently bought really lightweight jackets from Rab for use in the mountains. Hers was down and mine fibre. Hers has significantly more loft, mine (a xeon) is slightly heavier at 400 gms. Last week I dropped mine while packed and it rolled down the mountain and lodged in a stream. On unpacking it was still warm to wear. I was very impressed. I have also worn it during a thunderstorm and it kept me reasonably warm and dry. I was very impressed.

I doubt I will wear it skiing. The Pertex outer materiel will offer no resistance to sliding down the mountain after a fall, it looks as if it may tear easily. And of course will be too warm for skiing.
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Thanks both Smile Leaning towards synthetic gilet I think.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Primaloft is fine for most porpoises.
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Primaloft is fine for most porpoises.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
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http://youtube.com/v/t3qpeDeQXHU

Quote:
Down is the original fill for insulated jackets and sleeping bags, and is in many ways still the super hero of insulation. It comes from the under-coat of ducks and geese, and is in the form of light-as-air clusters, not feathers. Down comes in a range of quality (find out more about Down Fill Power), but here are some general traits: Pound for pound, nothing insulates like good down.

Insulation is created by trapped air space, and down lofts up to take up more space than any synthetic out there. That means that a down jacket will be lighter weight than a comparably warm synthetic. It will also be easier to pack and will stuff down smaller. Down also has the advantage of durability.

Properly cared for down (learn more about How to Care for Down) gear can handle being stuffed and unstuffed hundreds of times, and can last a lifetime. Last but not least, down is comfortable; it is hard to beat the feeling of being enveloped in the light, soft warmth of down, and down's higher breathability gives down gear a little broader comfort range than synthetics.

So what is the weakness of this super hero? Moisture. Drop your pack in the drink, wet the bed, or be dumb enough to leave your bag out in the rain, then your down gets wet and you freeze. Wet down loses its loft and all of its ability to keep you warm. It also takes a long, long time to dry. There are many ways to protect against this eventuality, from smart packing to various fabric technologies. But the risk is there, and that leads many people to look into synthetic alternatives.

The other principal drawback to down is that you may not be rich: Down is more expensive than synthetic insulations, particularly if you are looking at the higher quality, higher performance fill power ratings.


http://www.shop-denali.com/down_vs_synthetic.aspx#.U7ctKiyKDIU
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
I bought a lightweight North Face down jacket to go under my shell when it was minus 26 C a couple of years ago. (Think it's a North face Thunder jacket). Love it. Fits like a glove and is toasty warm and no draughty bits! So light that I don't feel I'm wearing it. It feels less bulky than a fleece. It packs down into one pocket. Other plus is that it gives me another jacket to wear in the evenings-looks quite cool. I think some manufacturer has come up with a down jacket which you can get wet now, so that may not be such an issue.
Can't abide the shiny ones which seem to be the thing with fashion conscious Italians though!
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I've become a fan of down in the last few years. Very warm for very little weight, with the added bonus that they squeeze in to the smallest of stuff sacks when you need to store a layer in a backpack. Strangely I've found they don't overheat me when I'm working hard or if the temperature rises.

I had a couple of versions of the Uniqlo down jacket and ebayed them as they didn't deal with moisture especially well. Just seemed to suck up moisture and not release it. I switched to the Salomon down jackets (with and without a hood, currently called he Halo jacket) and they've been brilliant for me. No problems with moisture, unlike the Uniqlo jackets, ultralight, and very warm when you need the insulation.

I don't think they add too much bulk, not least because they compress into whatever space you have inside your jacket (although the more tightly they are squeezed the less thermal insulation they offer). On really bad weather days having a down jacket with a hood you can use underneath the hood of your shell makes life very cozy Smile

The only downside with down, IMO, is the cost. Cheap they are not.
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Totally astonished by the arc'teryx Nano for warm when cold and not when not.
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Thanks all very much indeed. I am now thinking maybe down after all and a full jacket. I'd been leaning away from it as I have a very nice and very expensive HH down filled jacket that I've been disappointed with in how it has washed (had a thread on it a while ago) and also in that I don't want to look too bulky. But maybe I'll try again. Make sure it's well fitting to start with. Think I might go and try some on later snowHead

rob@rar, the halo is one I've been looking at so that's good to know.
Dave of the Marmottes, yes trying to avoid looking like a porpoise Laughing
DB, very useful thanks.
Perty, thanks will make sure it fits well and good point about it being an extra jacket.
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under a new name, thanks will check that one too.
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Arcteryx atom lt for the win.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
clarky999 wrote:
Arcteryx atom lt for the win.
I've got one of those (the jacket version, not the hoody). Nice, slim fit, but nowhere near as warm as a down jacket in my experience.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Thanks again. Leaning more towards the down, the more I think about it. Been spending a lot of time indoors recently and after a few hours with beginner lessons where I'm not moving all that much I have been really feeling the cold. One guy I've been working with has 6 layers including a down jacket Shocked
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
rob@rar, i could see that. But that would typically be too warm for me.
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Quote:

down filled jacket that I've been disappointed with in how it has washed


Don't wash your down jacket unless you've accidentally dropped it into an open sewer. Even then a good airing might suffice.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I've got a down gilet. Most of the time it's far too hot to ski in, bit it is handy when you are just standing about waiting for the kids to finish ski school.
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stevomcd,

You can safely wash down products just run the machine through a few rinse cycles first to clean out any detergent residue then use a product like Nikwax down wash. When you put it in the dryer do so on a low setting with a few tennis balls, but still take the item out every 20 min or so and feel for any clumps of down and break them apart. I wash all my down sleeping bags and down jackets as and when needed, and never had any issues.


Hydrophobic down has been available for well over a year now and is much better for use in wet/damp conditions than std down products plus look for a down jacket with a waterproof outer shell. An example is MHW use their Conduit SL on some of their down jackets.


If you don't want to look like the preverbal Michelin Man MHW do the Ghost down jacket and Rab along with others do a similar product that has micro baffles.
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FWIW I use both down and Primaloft filled mid layers in vest and jacket form depending on the conditions. It's all an expense but I find I need the versatility of different layering systems.

I generally feel the cold so my standard winter outfit is an insulated (Primaloft) ski jacket with a insulated (Primaloft) vest (the Haglöfs barrier vest which can also be worn for other sporting activities…) and several merino base layers. If it's really cold then I will wear a thin down jacket as a mid layer instead of the vest. Been pleased with both my Rab microlight alpine and an old Northface microlight style 800 fill jacket but I don't think they make this style anymore sadly. For springtime I just ditch the mid layer.

If it's baltic outside I have gone for the double down combo in the past but my down outerwear jacket is quite puffy and the word Michelin springs to mind...
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rob@rar wrote:
clarky999 wrote:
Arcteryx atom lt for the win.
I've got one of those (the jacket version, not the hoody). Nice, slim fit, but nowhere near as warm as a down jacket in my experience.


Oh nowhere near as warm as a real down jacket, but I couldn't contemplate skiing in down - just way too hot. The Atom LT does a great job of keeping you warm enough, stopping enough wind (and rain), but breathing really well when you're working hard. Perfect mid-layer IMO, and enough of a barrier to work as an outer layer when skinning.
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clarky999, agree that down is hooter, and for some too hot. But others will want that insulation capacity. One point that Sarah might want to consider is that Salomon offer a decent pro discount wink
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
rob@rar, thanks for that, I did wonder wink But then thought that end of season sales bargains might well match that anyway?? I've ordered a couple to try, if they're not suitable they can go back. I ordered a Salomon Halo hooded one and also a very similar Scott down jacket for a very good price.
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sarah, I think Salomon's pro discount is 40% off the retail price.
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rob@rar, thanks, had just sent you a PM. So sales could be better then if you see what you want.
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