 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
You need one for dinghy racing, certain keelboat/yacht racing and sailing on some inland waters where it is stipulated by the landlord. Windsurfers virtually never use them and most yacht sailors don't use them most of the time.
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There's a pretty rational relationship in boating, I think, between the wearing of either buoyancy aids (typically for dinghy sailing and racing) and life jackets (on cruisers at sea) and the objective risk. A dinghy racer is really highly likely to end up in the oggin at least once or twice a season and often in pretty cold water. With a job to do (right the boat and then get back into it) a buoyancy aid makes big sense and also helps keep you warm. On a cruiser most people didn't wear life jackets in benign conditions until the coming of the convenient, comfortable, automatic ones. An inflated lifejacket is very cumbersome - indeed dangerous. When falling off the boat would be a disaster (at night, or in rough conditions) a lifeline is more practical, though they can trip you up too, if you're not used to them. Windsurfers don't really need them any more than swimmers do - they are in the water a lot and their wetsuits give them a fair bit of extra buoyancy.
The low rate of head injuries in golf strikes me as a rational argument for not wearing a helmet. Whereas most of us who have skied a fair bit - let alone snowboarded - have had some fairly major head bashes from time to time. I have, and I'm hardly a gnarly risk-taker. I wear a helmet because I do think it's safer, but mostly because I find them warm and comfortable and they will play me music.
So, to the OP - I don't think you have a sound argument to try to make your golfing friends wear a helmet. But if you don't want to wear one skiing, that's your look-out, and they should STFU.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Try parking in the staff car park at ChillFactore - golf balls are a regular think being fired over from next door ggrrr!
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| PaulC1984 wrote: |
| Try parking in the staff car park at ChillFactore - golf balls are a regular think being fired over from next door ggrrr! |
Glad I park in the punters area. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| pam w wrote: |
| Windsurfers don't really need them any more than swimmers do - they are in the water a lot and their wetsuits give them a fair bit of extra buoyancy. |
There's a handful of good reasons not to wear a buoyancy aid whilst windsurfing, but they're not worth detailing here. More relevant to the topic at hand: windsurfers do benefit from wearing helmets... its a pretty safe sport on the whole and deaths are pretty rare, but more often than not when they do happen it is because someone bumped their head, knocked themselves out and promptly drowned before anyone else noticed. It is only really a risk for people out in challenging conditions, eg. quite experienced folk, but even so helmet use isn't ubiqitous amongst wave sailers. Inability to judge risk is common across all sports and human activities, after all.
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In golf, it is common practice to ensure the area ahead is clear before taking your shot. I think the average golfer hardly ever hits the ball badly enough for it to clear the rough/trees etc and land on another fairway (usually to the right). This would be where the ball would most likely meet the head of an unsuspecting golfer. The design of courses are such that, usually, the groups pass each other infrequently thus reducing the time in a danger zone. It is common practice to shout 'fore' as a warning to other golfers if a ball is heading in their direction; this usually alerts those in the danger zone to take cover (most golfers instinctively cover their heads - shout it at random golfers and see the reaction). These are the reasons why I think golf is considered low risk enough to not warrant wearing a helmet.
IMO, comparing the use of helmets between sports is pointless because each sport has it's own dynamic.
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[quote="pam w"]
| Quote: |
Windsurfers don't really need them any more than swimmers do - they are in the water a lot and their wetsuits give them a fair bit of extra buoyancy.
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That isn't really the reason and if it were, dinghy sailors wearing the same wetsuits could make the same argument. There are several reasons windsurfers don't wear buoyancy aids. They get in the way when hooking into the harness, which to save your forearms you want to do as quickly as possible. You already have a great big buoyancy aid in the form of the board and (except in surf) it is much more unusual for a windsurfer to become separated from the board, which doesn't blow downwind fast, versus a capsized dinghy which can easily blow downwind faster than you can swim. Swimming in big surf you don't want a buoyancy aid because you want to be able to duck under waves, same as surfers who don't wear buoyancy. But above all, it's just not part of the culture and wearing one makes you look a dork. Now if you call it an "impact vest" instead of "buoyancy aid", some windsurfers at least will reach for their wallet.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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One of our Guys lost an 'impact vest', fell off the back of the boat. It sank.... Yup it really it!
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| dogwatch wrote: |
| ... But above all, it's just not part of the culture and wearing one makes you look a dork. Now if you call it an "impact vest" instead of "buoyancy aid", some windsurfers at least will reach for their wallet. |
You're stating that this is *not* about risk assessment, it's about those other things. QED.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
I think the average golfer hardly ever hits the ball badly enough for it to clear the rough/trees etc and land on another fairway
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My other claim to fame.
Woking Par 72 - shot to green on the 1st went so wrong it landed on the 18th.
Stupid game.
edit: and reference to carparks above - the Airbus carpark in Filton regularly had golf balls in it. I would never ever park within the 1st 2 rows of the fence.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| philwig wrote: |
| You're stating that this is *not* about risk assessment, it's about those other things. QED. |
The "other things" are more important. The safety benefits of a buoyancy aid are miniscule to windsurfers, and quite outweighed by their downsides.
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| Mistress Panda wrote: |
medlington, how many people are killed from head impacts every year while playing golf?
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You know it makes sense.
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| medlington wrote: |
on this website it says in America alone in a 1 year period there were 8,417 traumatic brain injuries from golf which I would imagine is higher than from winter sports.
http://www.brainandspinalcord.org/brain-injury/statistics.html
There are many ways to get injured from being hit by a ball or club to falling out of a buggy.
Personally I know 2 people whove been badly hit by golf balls, one who has permanent brain damage as a result. I dont know anyone whos had a serious brain injury from skiing
im surprised that the helmet manufacturers arnt trying to push them on golfers but realy Im interested in the people who have such a strong veiw when it comes to snow based activities but would never dream of them for golf. |
The issue with that statistic is that an absolute number of injuries are meaningless in this debate - what you need is injuries per exposure time, so head injuries per hour/day of golfing vs. head injuries per hour/day of skiing/snowboarding, otherwise the comparison doesn't mean anything.
Say there's 8,000 head injuries from golf and only 4,000 from skiing, that doesn't mean you're twice as likely to get a head injury golfing if there were 6 times more golfing days than skiing days in total.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| ALQ wrote: |
| I think the average golfer hardly ever hits the ball badly enough for it to clear the rough/trees etc and land on another fairway (usually to the right). |
you have obviously never seen me play 
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Poster: A snowHead
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| bobmcstuff wrote: |
The issue with that statistic is that an absolute number of injuries are meaningless in this debate - what you need is injuries per exposure time, so head injuries per hour/day of golfing vs. head injuries per hour/day of skiing/snowboarding, otherwise the comparison doesn't mean anything.
Say there's 8,000 head injuries from golf and only 4,000 from skiing, that doesn't mean you're twice as likely to get a head injury golfing if there were 6 times more golfing days than skiing days in total. |
A quick and lazy search brings up stuff like this:
462 million rounds of gold played in 2013: http://www.turfnet.com/page/news.html/_/construction-play-number-of-golfers-decline-in-2013-r249
56.6 million "skier visits" in the 2012/2013 season http://www.snowsports.org/Retailers/Research/SnowSportsFactSheet
(numbers for the US).
So going by the numbers in the page linked earlier ( http://www.brainandspinalcord.org/brain-injury/statistics.html ), winter sports get twice as many TBIs as golfing for about 1/8th of the number of visits. Skiing and snowboarding probably isn't quite 16 times more dangerous as golfing (the TBI count includes snowmobile accidents, etc) but it is clearly much more risky.
I doubt that comes as a surprise to anyone.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Serriadh, it may be a quick and lazy search but I couldn't even be bothered to do that
Seems like a pretty intuitive result too.
Cheers!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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But other scenarios you need a life vest for sailing but not for fishing yet people drown every year after falling in while fishing.
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Nope, depends on what you’re doing; less relevant if dangling worms in a canal but usually recommended or sometimes even required as a condition of ticket purchase on some rivers.
River Spey “It is mandatory that life preservers or life jackets are worn at all times while fishing the Upper Castle Grant beat. It is strongly advised that life preservers or life jackets are worn throughout our water”
River Dee “Chest waders a life jacket and a wading staff are recommended”.
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| JanA wrote: |
| wading staff are recommended”. |
"Jeeves, go stand out in the river and acquire me a fish."
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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How do those numbers stack up against bed related injuries, and clothing related ones. Oh and while we're at it, snooker related injuries.
Dunno how anyone can compare rounds of golf with skier visits, which are so distant in terms of risk involved. And you probably can't even find a sensible way of weighting that gived a round of golf takes an hour or so on some nicely manicured grass and a skier visit several hours on slippy icy ground.
More nonsense than comparing time or distance relative stats for modes of transport.
But in the unlikely event that I pick up a golf club, I seriously recommend that anyone within 3 fairways wears a Giro helmet like the one above.
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| Serriadh wrote: |
| JanA wrote: |
| wading staff are recommended”. |
"Jeeves, go stand out in the river and acquire me a fish." |
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| Quote: |
Jeeves, go stand out in the river and acquire me a fish
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my son in law often wears a helmet windsurfing, especially if doing dangerous stuff like flips and increasingly dinghy sailors can be seen with helmets - to guard against being bashed by the boom.
Dinghy sailors often wear trapeze harnesses; they are not incompatible with buoyancy aids, necessarily, though sometimes you can have too many lines and hooks and bits to get in the way.
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| medlington wrote: |
ah yes I may well have although I would have thought that head injuries sustained golfing would be just as serious as head injuries sustained skiing so it still is relevant to my point. Both of them will be from the head hitting a hard object, although with the golf the hard object in question will be traveling at a much greater velocity than a person falling over and hitting a rock, there will be more weight involved with the skier crash though.
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velocity doesn't really matter. Momentum is the important factor. 45g ball travelling at 200 MPH has the same momentum as a 4.5Kg head travelling at 2 MPH....which is slow walking speed.
Anyway - I agree with your main point. If you are wearing a helmet for one sport but not another because of culture....you have to be a bit daft. I don't understand why skiiers and cyclists who feel at risk don't wear proper motorsport/motorcycling helmets that offer real pretection, rather than a flimsy bit of plastic that will only give any help in a very limited set of circumstances.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Surely it's all a trade off between safety/risk and sanitizing the experience. Wearing a motorcycle helmet for 6 hours would be a rather unpleasant experience and worthless if you fell and broke a leg for instance. A lightweight helmet adds some safety without impairing enjoyment - at the end of the day for most of us this is a leisure experience and I wouldn't want to do it if I had letterbox type vision from a motorbike helmet, not to mention the weight and sweat as a result.
The same goes for golf - a helmet of any type would impair enjoyment and ability to play as well as without one - at least in the short term.
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Fed up with arguing the same old Helmet case, so *reaches for H&S Hi-Viz vest* I'm taking a new approach. I intend to repeat this whenever the topic comes up. Who knows, it may be useful to someone, some day.
Someone you know may suffer a head injury for whatever reason, but insist they're fine, so heres what to look for within the first 48 hours to make sure that theres not something more serious going on...
Headache. Expect a headache, but avoid pain-killers because they can mask the signs and symptoms of a more serious injury. If it lasts more than one or two days or increases in severity seek medical advice.
Nausea and vomiting. If nausea lasts more than two hours, seek medical advice. Vomiting once or twice, especially in children, may be expected after a head injury. Vomiting does not reveal anything about the severity of the injury, However, if vomiting begins again hours after one or two episodes have ceased, consult a doctor.
Drowsiness. Allow a victim to sleep, but wake the victim at least every two hours to check the state of consciousness and sense of orientation by asking his or her name and an information-processing question (e.g., recite months of the year backward). If the victim cannot answer correctly or appears confused or disoriented, phone a doctor.
Vision problems. If the victim "sees double," if the eyes fail to move together, or if one pupil appears to be larger than the other, seek medical advice.
Mobility. If the victim cannot use his or her hands, arms or legs as well as previously or is unsteady in walking, or persistant numbness or pins-and-needles seek medical assistance.
Speech. If the victim has slurred speech or is unable to talk, consult a doctor.
Seizures or convulsions. If the victim has a violent involuntary contraction (spasm) or series of contractions of the skeletal muscles, seek medical care.
If anyone with more experience than my very basic training thinks this post is incorrect or has any suggestions to improve the advice, please feel free to offer amendments, i'd be happy to improve this post.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Thornyhill, Not sure if you saw my previous post, but if not...... OK, if anyone's got the patience here is my pseudo scientific explanation for why it's not necessary to wear a helmet for golf:
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Head injuries usually boil down to two main types.
1: Penetrative, where the object fractures or penetrates the scull - I haven't tried modelling this one as it's too complex for my little brain and I would have thought it pretty unlikely too given the bluntness of a golf ball.
2. Inertial, where the impact causes the brain to 'rattle' within the scull causing tearing, bleeds, bruising and swelling. This is certainly the main risk with skiing. Let's look at this in more detail......
A golf ball leaves the club face at approx 59 m/s (when struck by the average club golfer). It weighs 45g or less. When it reaches the end of its flight it is typically travelling at around 22m/s. That means that the ball leaves the club with around 80 joules of energy and retains about 9 joules when it lands. (Better to get hit by one as it lands than just after it's been struck!)
A human head (4.5kg) skiing at a speed of 50 mph (22 m/s) has approximately 1089 joules. A skier pootling along at 25 mph would still be carrying c.280 joules.
So, my amateur conclusion is that a golf ball simply does not carry enough energy to be a significant risk.
Please feel free to pick holes in my feeble physics. |
Incidentally, 200mph for a golf ball would seem to be at/above the upper level for even a top pro.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Richard_Sideways, Good post, and worth repeating regularly.
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| The USGA and R&A (European golf governing body) rule that the velocity of the golf ball shall not be greater than 250 ft. (76.2 m.) per second. A maximum tolerance of 2 percent will be allowed. |
...which I make 170 mph
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You know it makes sense.
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Richard_Sideways,
Don't think the advice about avoiding painkillers is very good, paracetamol will make the victim far more comfortable and cause no harm. Medicines like brufen are maybe better avoided.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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T Bar, the advice on painkillers for people who have had head injuries comes from the British Red Cross First Aid guide.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Richard_Sideways,
Well it contradicts the NHS choices advice on head injury. Not to mention basic humanity.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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musher, Ruling that the speed of a golf ball shall not be greater than 170mph does not make it so. In practice I gather a club golfer seldom exceeds about 130mph and that's the speed off the club face. To encounter a ball at that speed you'd have to be lying with your head next to the tee, in which case the ball itself might be the least of your problems.
T Bar,
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Well it contradicts the NHS choices advice on head injury.
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Huh, what do they know?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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On the nausea and vomiting after head injury in children...
- vomiting once after a head injury for young children: seek immediate medical advice, e.g. a visit to the GP
- vomiting twice after a head injury for young children: dial 999
I'm not an expert, other than first aid training for work and instructing. This is just based on personal experience with a young child and the reaction and advice of our GP. I thought I was being overly cautious but they took it very seriously indeed. Fortunately in this case there was nothing to worry about and I suspect with hindsight that it was the nausea that caused the head injury rather than the other way around.
Happy to be corrected of course, but it's really not worth messing about with young children and head injuries. Mentioning a combination of head injury and vomiting will get a young child seen very quickly indeed!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I feel that they [medical professionals] take it seriously for the fear of litigation too.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I feel that they [medical professionals] take it seriously for the fear of litigation too.
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No, I think they take it seriously because it is potentially life threatening and being medical professionals they know it. Although avoiding litigation is often claimed to be the reason for any number of things there isn't any history of doctors being sued that would make it credible.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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The world is full of inconsistencies when it comes to choosing safety and being forced to have it.
Cricket and baseball both wear helmets now because killer balls flying around. The same could be said for Golf...but it's nice to have the choice.
We live in a world where we are forced to wear safety belts on Aeroplanes and when driving cars...yet are crammed stood up, on a bus or train doing 120 odd miles an hour...it's a mad old world. 
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| kieranm wrote: |
| ...I suspect with hindsight that it was the nausea that caused the head injury rather than the other way around... |
By this do you mean the nausea (or vomiting?) may have caused a headache, or led to an accident with resulting head injury? I'm no expert either btw, just interested as a parent and instructor of kids.
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My cousin was hit by a golf ball as a child, from a full drive and has never been "right" since.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
By this do you mean the nausea (or vomiting?) may have caused a headache, or led to an accident with resulting head injury? I'm no expert either btw, just interested as a parent and instructor of kids.
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I think that the child had some kind of bug that both affected their balance (resulting in the bang to the head) and then made them vomit. But this is just a guess really.
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| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
OK, if anyone's got the patience here is my pseudo scientific explanation for why it's not necessary to wear a helmet for golf:
Head injuries usually boil down to two main types.
1: Penetrative, where the object fractures or penetrates the scull - I haven't tried modelling this one as it's too complex for my little brain and I would have thought it pretty unlikely too given the bluntness of a golf ball.
2. Inertial, where the impact causes the brain to 'rattle' within the scull causing tearing, bleeds, bruising and swelling. This is certainly the main risk with skiing. Let's look at this in more detail......
A golf ball leaves the club face at approx 59 m/s (when struck by the average club golfer). It weighs 45g or less. When it reaches the end of its flight it is typically travelling at around 22m/s. That means that the ball leaves the club with around 80 joules of energy and retains about 9 joules when it lands. (Better to get hit by one as it lands than just after it's been struck!)
A human head (4.5kg) skiing at a speed of 50 mph (22 m/s) has approximately 1089 joules. A skier pootling along at 25 mph would still be carrying c.280 joules.
So, my amateur conclusion is that a golf ball simply does not carry enough energy to be a significant risk.
Please feel free to pick holes in my feeble physics. |
Do those figures not suggest that helmet wearing may actually be more effective at preventing golf ball related brain injuries than ski crashes? I.e. if the helmet were able to absorb the penetrative effect of the ball, then the remaining brain 'rattle' would much less significant than a skier crashing.
Edit: and I don't believe the penetrative effect of being hit by a golf ball is insignificant.
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FAQ
