 Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
This information is difficult to process when faced with redesigning something that not only works fine as it is, but also not many people see the need for.
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I can imagine. so who came up with this particular task? As opposed, say, to designing an electric plug which you can change without fiddling with a screwdriver?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
stuarth, It looks like Ski Key requires massive investment by the mountain. Every restaurant would need to install it and then persuade skiers that they should buy the ski keys. All this to solve a problem that many would argue doesn't even exist. I think it may work better in the US where the restaurants are owned (I think) by the mountain owners as opposed to being all small, independent family businesses.
Is Ski Key really such an improvement over just swapping a ski with one of your mates? |
Yes and yes.
It does require a big investment, but most of the big and small mountains in this part of the world (Canada, which isn't part of the US  , though think it is in US too?) have made it. A look in the racks at Whistler would indicate that many skiers/boarders have made the $20 or so investment also. I guess over here keeping the customers happy is a price worth paying.
And yes ski key really is better than swapping with your mates, it actually locks up your skis - not particularly hard to locate and remove 2 somewhat pricey and distinctive separated Whitedot Redeemer Carbonlites!
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Tue 6-05-14 20:34; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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BTW the investment isn't that big, I am pondering a wall mounted ski-key rack for my garage
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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LOUGHdesign, You've had feedback . . . ignoring mine . . . the majority of which is negative. What does that tell you about your research sampling, your decision processes and what is your next step?
Seriously, if this is the degree clincher then you must realise that no tutor is going to give this a passing grade and if you think the outcome is worthy of your degree then you'll soon come to realise that I'm a kindly Uncle in comparison to the real world. It's no joke, what you've produced for feedback is crude, crass and (for sake of my idleness to think harder) crap! What do you take away from this?
Reading back through this thread there are at least a dozen good threads/pathways to explore and intertwine that could yeild a viable product . . . are you going to push yourselves or are you just going to wipe this slate and present your existing shoite to your adjudicating tutor?
That could be deepy unproductive
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| LOUGHdesign wrote: |
a commercial ski lock would likely be best designed directly copying many already on the market. It was established early on that we could not do this, and so we used the research we conducted to attempt to create a feasible product.
That sentence describes exactly why you should fail your degree. Think about it 
We have acknowledged what has been said and we are grateful for your feedback. |
That I sincerely doubt, you are pіѕѕed and frustrated and you are either going to be very lazy and just present what you have in your hand . . . or . . . you will actually do your job as a student and explore the options you've been given.
What are you going to do?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
not particularly hard to locate and remove 2 somewhat pricey and distinctive separated Whitedot Redeemer Carbonlites!
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indeed, which is why I don't bother with a lock as I have bog-standard production skis like most other people, so digging out swapped pairs would be a mission and not very rewarding!
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| pam w wrote: |
| Quote: |
not particularly hard to locate and remove 2 somewhat pricey and distinctive separated Whitedot Redeemer Carbonlites!
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indeed, which is why I don't bother with a lock as I have bog-standard production skis like most other people, so digging out swapped pairs would be a mission and not very rewarding! |
"Bog standard" production skis still cost in the $500 to $1000 range, so still better to spend $20 or so not losing them I think. Mrs H who has "bog standard" Atomic Centuries, and quite a lot of my friends also lock their skis.
Should be noted that same said locking racks are found all round Whistler village (I assume funded by the location where they reside rather than the mountain?) so could happily leave my skis at the bottom of the mountain, and return to them likely still being there quite a few beers later...
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stuarth, I think the situation in North America is very different from what we see in the Alps.
1. I am under the impression that ski theft in most of Europe is much, much rarer.
2. I think the ski ownership level is far lower.
3. The way restaurants are scattered across the mountain rather than clustered together may also be a factor.
4. Most people seem very happy either with the few existing non-lockable racks, sticking them upright in the snow, or even just stepping out of them and leaving them ready to be stepped back into.
5. Because land, lifts, restaurants, apartments, ski hire shops etc. are all owned by different people I can't see any one of them installing these racks as there is unlikely ever to be a critical mass of racks or users.
If there was greater demand for ski key in the Alps I think we'd already see more people using their own simple cable locks. I know from this forum that some do lock their skis, but in 40 years of skiing I have never seen anyone lock their skis nor heard of anyone having their skis deliberately taken.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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foxtrotzulu, you haven't skied with us  We lock ours everytime they are left - if there are no ski racks I go for the noisey, awkward, bundle routine in the snow. In fact that's a good point about this new design - I like to be able to use a lock around several sets of skis at the same time, I couldn't do that with this lock and that is a valid point for the designers to take notice of.
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| Lechbob wrote: |
| LOUGHdesign, I presume you had a good look at what's out there. Only the simple cable lock seems to have caught on. The best solution is where the resort provides lockable racks. |
None of the locking racks I've seen in resorts have been wide enough to accept skis with rail/frame bindings.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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feef, Also, I bet if you are a family you can't fit more than one set of skis into one section, therefore you need to buy and carry a lock for each person. In our set up a single carried cable lock can secure mulitple sets of skis.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Looking at some VERY rough statistics from about five years ago and taking Austria as an example, it seems that on any given day you have a 1:10,000 chance of having your skis stolen. Allowing for some of the stats being not quite comparable, a fair degree of under-reporting and say we reduce the odds to 1:1,000. That still means that your risk of theft is statistically very low indeed.
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foxtrotzulu, Yeah, but it would certainly take the shine off your holiday if it happened, I think its 45 seconds well spent to try an detract attention elsewhere, even if it just saves an innocent mix-up between two sets of similar skis.
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You know it makes sense.
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ski 1000 days - that'll tweak the stats a bit
see plenty use locks, sH and otherwise.
know of several that have had skis pinched (Italy, France, ...)
my insurance has a "forcibly removed" clause, so it's either €5 for a pebble lock and stand a change of getting €200 back, or €0 and self insure. neither will make the faff of getting home any easier.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Megamum, andy, I'm not suggesting nobody should lock their skis (it may well make sense if you have particularly valuable/desirable skis) but I am suggesting that one should keep the level of risk in perspective. There are all sorts of things that might ruin your day's skiing but we don't take steps to prevent them all. we take a view on how much of a buggeration it might be and the risk of it happening. My point is simply that the buggeration factor of having your skis deliberately stolen is probably medium, but the risk is pretty low. Supposing you have a 1:1000 risk of theft and a lock reduces that to 1:5,000. However you may have a new risk of the lock failing/freezing in the closed position or losing the key that could well obviate the advantage gained. So, depending upon whether you ski in high risk areas (Utah, Eastern Europe etc.) and depending on whether you have valuable skis then a lock may be a good idea. Is it worth a resort like Obergurgl installing lockable ski racks outside every restaurant? probably not. Most restaurants don't have anywhere close to the number of racks they 'ought to' anyway with the skis stacked/lain pretty much anywhere. I'm not sure i'd be in favour anywhere as it introduces an unpleasant security element to an otherwise unspoilt environment. Imagine finding an un-spoilt beach on a quiet Greek island only to see rows of security lockers and signs warning you to beware of thieves etc. Possibly practical, but unpleasant.
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Poster: A snowHead
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1% of the people I've skied with have had a pair nicked.
Not a massive number.
I, and presumably quite a few people, although a minority, don't mind paying that fiver to make the airheaded dimwit who was using red skis realise that that pair of red skis probably aren't theirs.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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andy, I know two people that have had skis stolen, and I don't know that many skiers!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Megamum, Definitely stolen or accidentally swapped by a drunk coming out of a restaurant? I know it doesn't make much difference in some ways, but one requires a lock and the other just requires a paint splodge on the bindings.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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personally I'd say one needs a lock, the other needs a mousetrap to snap the tealeafs fingers
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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foxtrotzulu, Def. stolen.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Megamum wrote: |
| feef, Also, I bet if you are a family you can't fit more than one set of skis into one section, therefore you need to buy and carry a lock for each person. In our set up a single carried cable lock can secure mulitple sets of skis. |
You can with the SkiKey racks - you just put a few pairs into a snowboard slot. You can normally fit poles in the slot as well (obviously depends on how wide your skis are), so they are just as locked as your skis - OK they can probably be forced out of the slot, but like all of the locks, it should stop opportunism - and I have had poles disappear.
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| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
| ...Imagine finding an un-spoilt beach on a quiet Greek island only to see rows of security lockers and signs warning you to beware of thieves etc. |
I think the word "lockers" is sufficient. I regularly surf in lots of places (not Greece), and I find it limiting if there's nowhere to leave my gear. At a ski resort I can leave my shoes in a locker, so I'll still have them when I need to walk home.
Signs reminding me that some of you are thieves are about as useful as train/plane drivers telling me not to leave my stuff on their machine.
I'm reminded of a quaker school where they didn't have lockers, because they taught the children of their rich parents not to steal. The result wasn't quite what was intended: no one could "own" anything nice, as there was no security.
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I also think it's a great shame that there aren't limitless supplies of lockers esp. on beaches. When I holiday with my kids it is very awkward to be on part of a beach with them and also to be keeping an eye on 'important' gear at the same time.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
stuarth, I think the situation in North America is very different from what we see in the Alps.
1. I am under the impression that ski theft in most of Europe is much, much rarer.
2. I think the ski ownership level is far lower.
3. The way restaurants are scattered across the mountain rather than clustered together may also be a factor.
4. Most people seem very happy either with the few existing non-lockable racks, sticking them upright in the snow, or even just stepping out of them and leaving them ready to be stepped back into.
5. Because land, lifts, restaurants, apartments, ski hire shops etc. are all owned by different people I can't see any one of them installing these racks as there is unlikely ever to be a critical mass of racks or users.
If there was greater demand for ski key in the Alps I think we'd already see more people using their own simple cable locks. I know from this forum that some do lock their skis, but in 40 years of skiing I have never seen anyone lock their skis nor heard of anyone having their skis deliberately taken. |
Interesting statistics/assumptions, what was the source?
In fact the only time I've been with someone who had their skis stolen was in Val d'Isere
I used to have a cable lock when we skied in Europe, but really it is so thin it is only just better than nothing so wouldn't choose to use it now
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stuarth,
I'd struggle to reference many of those points as they have come from articles I've read over the last year or so and some just my general impression. I was quite careful to include phrases like 'I am under the impression' and would be more than happy to be proved wrong.
Any of those points you particularly think are inaccurate? #3,4,5 are, I think, the killers when it comes to something like Ski Key.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I have some sympathy for the kids at Loughborough here. They have been through school with many A*'s and have received lots of praise for effort. Then at uni some fool has the crackpot idea of checking out feedback for their endearingly crap design on snowheads.
Welcome to the real world kids. Bet you wish you'd stuck to media studies now. 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
stuarth,
I'd struggle to reference many of those points as they have come from articles I've read over the last year or so and some just my general impression. I was quite careful to include phrases like 'I am under the impression' and would be more than happy to be proved wrong.
Any of those points you particularly think are inaccurate? #3,4,5 are, I think, the killers when it comes to something like Ski Key. |
Well yes actually because you are also making a bit of a possibly inaccurate assumption that the only place people go skiing is in Europe, and therefore that is actually the target market.
For details....
1). Based on what my exhaustive survey of just me shows, this is 100% inaccurate!
2). See first line. Besides how much are you on the hook for if someone steals your rentals (as was the case in point 1)?
3). See my earlier point about locking ski racks also being dotted around the town (presumably owned by the hotels and restaurants where they are). Also note that I can viably put one or two in my garage so they are not that expensive.
This is an example of just one sort of ski lock, what I, and megamum are pointing out that your writing off of this whole product range and hence this thread, is in itself mistaken based on your opinion that no-one in the world uses them.
4). You might be right. At the places that do have locking racks, they also have standard ones, and locks are often not used (or cable locks used) on such locking racks. However it is I guess a North American thing to provide a service to customers who want to make use of it as a perceived value add.
5). See point 3.
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Read through the thread and it does interest me as I'm considering getting something for my skis. I think having something visual or physical does spur a better discussion than just asking questions.
If I were to reinvent a lock and chain for skis, how about something that integrates with the skis. Kinda like kensington security slots on laptops.
A simple hole at the top of the ski where you could lock a weight onto that protrudes out the base of the ski could work. Or with the hole in the ski, you could run a cable and tie a bunch of skis together.
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You know it makes sense.
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stuarth,
Let's ignore #1 and #2 as neither of us have the data.
#3 - I looked at the Ski Key system as that was what we were discussing. Cost seemed to be around $40 per pair of skis. I was assuming, perhaps incorrectly, that you were suggesting all the racks should be this design as opposed to just having one rack among many.
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This is an example of just one sort of ski lock, what I, and megamum are pointing out that your writing off of this whole product range and hence this thread, is in itself mistaken based on your opinion that no-one in the world uses them.
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IO have never, ever, said that nobody uses them. I said that I have never seen anyone lock their skis, but that I know from here that some people do. I never discussed anything other than the Ski Key as it seems to me that have more than one standardised system rather obviates the whole point of them, and therein lies one of the issues.
Am I incorrect in thinking that in most NA American resorts ownership/control of the facilities (lifts, mountain restaurants etc.) is more concentrated than in a typical European resort? My point was that this would mean that anyone wishing to establish a standard locking system would need to make many more sales than in a typical N.A. resort. Correct me if I'm wrong.
My general point was not that nobody would use the system but that it would be hard to establish the critical mass and I was dubious of whether there was enough demand. As I said earlier, if that many people were truly worried about the theft of their equipment then I can't help feeling we'd see many more people investing in cable locks.
One key difference could be insurance. None of the policies I have ever had has insisted on the skis being secured when outside a mountain restaurant. If that is different in NA then that would be an incentive to a locking system.
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Well yes actually because you are also making a bit of a possibly inaccurate assumption that the only place people go skiing is in Europe, and therefore that is actually the target market.
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ummm - I was talking about Europe because this is a UK based forum populated mostly by people who ski mostly in Europe.
I note that SkiKey have no locations in Europe at all. It makes me wonder if the racks are actually provided at a significant discount, or even free, to the resorts as a way of then selling the SkiKey locks.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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kfyh, patent lawyer already retained . . . 
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Poster: A snowHead
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thecramps, I wonder if they understand the difference between "feasible" and 'viable' product design ?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Masque, got to say I wish you'd been my design lecturer at uni when I did my degree. I did mech eng, but obviously design was a part, and we had some crappy hippy/ad exec idiot who didn't push us and was totally rubbish.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Masque, interesting website, a bit of spare time needed I think.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Masque, Thanks for that. Will spend some time there too now. Let me know what happens with Loughborough
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I'd agree Europe more of a perceived risk to me than N America. Bigger areas, more people easier opportunity for thieves and numpties to make their getaway. Plus smash and grabs of ski lockers and rack raids outside of town bars.
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Thank you everyone for your feedback, our project is now over! We have appreciated the enthusiasm greatly and have taken on board your comments.
We can ensure you that this project has been successful, despite some of your concerns. Successful in this context does not mean that we think that we have designed a product that is going to revolutionise ski security devices. However we have been able to evaluate our product fairly, made well reasoned conclusions and have learnt a lot about the design process.
Masque, we understand your intense dissatisfaction with out product, however we would like to politely request you refrain from contacting our university with regard to our project, this will benefit no one.
Thank you.
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LOUGHdesign, It would only not benefit you.
But let's be clear, you polled us initially for your research and then returned to bask in the glory of your efforts as we swoon to your genius . . . only to find that the cruel kilowatt glare of the real world outshines the dim bulb of your no doubt incredibly strenuous efforts . . . sorry sugarbuns, you invited us to the party. Don't demand that we can't complain to the householder that the booze, bong and bravura are shoite
I'm impressed that you can nuance and sub-vocalise your fear of this thread being seen by your tutors . . . and appalled that you could not do the same for your project. Before I make any decision would you tell us how far you are along your Uni pathway?
I'm going to make an assumptive question that I sincerely hope will not offend; Is English your primary language? So far you have ill used it for engineering purpose and clearly not understood what I find loathsome about your project . . . I'll give you a hint . . . it's not your product
How do you define "successful" ? We would all (well some of the oily rag brigade here) be interested. If your remit was solely to build a lock that will fit a pair of skis and/or a snowboard then yes you have met the minimum requirement for success . . . for all that your lock is bulky, rigid, mechanically inefficient, user unfriendly (we wear gloves dontcha know) and impossible to manufacture at an economic pricepoint for something so clearly not fit for use, I cannot see one USP for your project. It would be interesting and likely constructive for you to post your tasking and decision processes here. That at least may mitigate many of the negative thoughts about your project if you were constrained by your tutor.
In the meantime while I think about a phone call on Monday I'll draw your mind back to your own words . . .
| Quote: |
| a commercial ski lock would likely be best designed directly copying many already on the market. It was established early on that we could not do this, and so we used the research we conducted to attempt to create a feasible product. |
I could be nasty and ask 'what do you see wrong in that statement" . . . so many opportunities to rip you a new orifice But better to offer you a rope with which to either hang or rescue yourself . . . What do you see that's right in that statement?
LOUGHdesign, If you invite the monster into your wardrobe, you really shouldn't scream when it bites you on the ass 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Masque wrote: |
| How do you define "successful" ? We would all (well some of the oily rag brigade here) be interested. If your remit was solely to build a lock that will fit a pair of skis and/or a snowboard then yes you have met the minimum requirement for success . . . |
Now you're just being generous. The internal dimensions of the lock are such that only some skis fit (up to 90mm wide) and no snowboards. By this criteria alone the design is at least massively flawed on the most fundamental objective.
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FAQ
For that I'd hop a flight back just to bang on their tutor's door and push a Daily Flail reporter through it.