 Poster: A snowHead
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Espace Killy, great selection of black pistes which vary with conditions (as do all pistes) and has itineraries as well. Fill your boots!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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johnE, Malgovert is my favourite.... sometimes Comborciere is just too exhausting to contemplate, and there are these weird people shouting at you from the lift..... 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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snowyowl, sorry
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ed123, s' ok....we shout scores at folk who fall over.... 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| ed123 wrote: |
| Arguably the most breathtaking quality displayed is the touchiness. |
You're really doing your best to troll aren't you?
(And I'm not referring to the very boring, often nicely-pisted black in Tignes which all the lesser intermediates should probably keep clear for the experts)
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johnE, ed123, and Malgovert is red, not black! But then there are shades of black/red and my instructor years ago told me that a steep pisted wide black was simply navy blue....!
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| Quote: |
You're really doing your best to troll aren't you?
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or he is just saying what he thinks..... not wanting to upset those all ready flustered feathers anymore but you did get all offended over nothing 
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| James the Last wrote: |
IMO resorts should leave more permanently unpisted red runs. There is a yawning gap between a black that is pisted daily and a black that is never pisted; this gap should be filled with unpisted reds which very often do not exist at all. |
This
[Breathtaking arrogance] insert usual yada yada about blacks being relative etc etc
If you want to ski blacks but can only contemplate them in conditions of perfect grooming you'd be better advised staying out longer and skiing reds in deteriorating conditions - slop, scrape, sugar etc if you want to exercise the right to challenge yourself. The sooner people get away from the colour of a slope being an aspirational thing and more into the mindset of having fun on runs that are fun the easier the path to being a better more confident skier who makes their own decisions. [\breathtaking arrogance]
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Yet more misreading by everyone.
geeo, I'm not offended at all and have no flustered feathers, despite how you may interpret my posts. It's the Internet. I don't usually express much of an opinion on Snowheads as people tend to get so arsey and sarcastic.
Dave of the Marmottes, who on this thread said blacks should always be perfectly groomed? I like it when they are, others don't. Ski something else then, there are loads of unpisted tough blacks available, certainly in the EK. The only reason anyone mentioned piste colour at all was because of the OP's original question!
The only thing I found annoying was the 'breathtakingly arrogant' reference to 'lesser' skiers and the opinion they get in the way of the experts so ALL black runs should be ungroomed to keep the crappy skiers off them. Well so what if intermediates do try and ski them? The mountains are for everyone. Get over it or go and ski faaaaar away off-piste.
Some serious superiority complexes on here.
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The issue I have with leaving too many unpisted reds is that most resorts seem to have more of these medium grade slopes than any others.
Yes, there is often a way around them so that someone who doesn't want to ski a red slope can take a blue and still get around the mountain, but often these blues are narrow paths winding down around the reds, that are just a means to get somewhere and to be honest aren't the most fun things to spend time on even if you aren't a confident skier. The motorway slopes around an area seem in many cases to be the reds. Groom the red, make it skiable and the vast majority of semi-competent skiers will have a lovely holiday, see most of the mountain and have the satisfaction and fun of skiing down something vaguely worthwhile that they can manage safely. Leave too many of said reds ungroomed and the less confident skier will think twice about skiing them. These days I am (perfectly - 99%) happy to ski any red that I know was groomed last night, even at 4pm in the afternoon. Show me one that hasn't been groomed for 48hrs and is full of substantial mounds and it's no longer fun. I think most Joe Bloggs holiday skiers with an expectation of enjoying their holiday skiing wouldn't be happy to find any more Reds unpisted than is currently the case, and I suspect the resorts are set up to make the majority of holiday skiers happy. IMO Off-piste and blacks are where expert skiers need to be and I think if anyone capable of skiing a black has probably got to the stage were they can get down it in any conditions groomed or otherwise - the steepest groomed reds are probably the overlap for anyone that can't cope with a lack of grooming.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| HoneyBunny wrote: |
Yet more misreading by everyone.
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Actually I think you did most of the mis-reading.
The main thrust of his comment was leave some blacks ungroomed so good skiers can have fun without having to go offpiste, with all the extra precautions/concerns(/expense of a guide in some cases) re. avalanche danger that entails.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| James the Last wrote: |
OP: St Anton has a large number of unpisted routes, both red and black. But expect to be told on Snowheads to wear a transceiver and go with a friend; I'm not sure that this is local advice. |
Transciever isn't necessary; the marked offpiste routes are avalanche controlled, so if they're open you're good to go. Can't really argue that taking a friend isn't a good idea, but there's nothing wrong with solo skiing IMO (I really enjoy it!).
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| Quote: |
marked offpiste routes are avalanche controlled
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I have to say that this ^^^ sounds a really good thing for St Anton to do. Is it done anywhere else?
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You know it makes sense.
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Megamum, In Austria/Tirol at least, most/all of the offpiste routes marked on the piste map (usually a dashed line with red or black diamonds) are avi controlled. I can't think of any exceptions to that anyway. You should still check if they are open that day though.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| tangowaggon wrote: |
| Quote: |
tangowaggon wrote:
I did this a few times this January, admittedly, the snow cover was not to it's usual depth but apart from a few moguls at the sides it was just horrid, pisted flat and boring
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HoneyBunney wrote:
Well you're clearly a gnarly expert. I'm not, and for me it's an enjoyable challenge.
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Fair comment but black runs were always rated "expert" on resort stats ie a facility for expert skiers, when they are pisted flat so that the vociferous hordes of intermediates can get down them, they are no longer a facility or challenge for expert skiers and offpiste with all the issue that go with offpiste skiing is the only option for better skiers looking for a challenge |
Without the last 7 words 9which I have removed in my quote), there really isn't anything wrong with tangowaggon's post. He's certainly not the only person to find La Face boring (After staying in a chalet on the side of it it I heartily agree with him) and he's also right that when all runs are pisted it gets steadily more tricky for adventurous skiers to find interesting challenges without heading off piste which in europe does have insurance and risk implications. That's why nowadays I like Les Arcs - which leaves some natur. And intermediates (myself included) ARE a vociferous horde - we massively outnumber both beginner and expert skiers and resorts tend therefore to cater heavily to the intermediate need.
As a happy intermediate I wasn't offended, I rather liked the mental picture of a vociferous horde, I've definitely been in it at home time  I've had to go back and read again to even work out what the fuss is about.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Megamum wrote: |
| The issue I have with leaving too many unpisted reds... |
Many US resorts have a great answer to the problem that you highlight where unpisted runs effectively close access to most intermediate skiers: simply groom only half of the run. In North America, runs at all levels that are sufficiently wide are typically only half groomed, which gives everyone a gently introduction to the wonderful world of bumps.
Scared of steep bumps? Ski the ungroomed half of a green run. Legs get tired if you ski too many bumps? Dip in and out of the ungroomed part according to your lactic acid levels. Skiing with a bunch of mates who hate bumps? You stick to the bumpy part, they go on the other half of the run. Hate it when the bumps get icy? Only go into the bumps when the run's in the shade.
I really don't understand why the practice isn't more widespread in Europe.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Jonny Jones, I like that idea, and yes, that is exactly what I was getting at 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| clarky999 wrote: |
| HoneyBunny wrote: |
Yet more misreading by everyone.
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Actually I think you did most of the mis-reading.
The main thrust of his comment was leave some blacks ungroomed so good skiers can have fun without having to go offpiste, with all the extra precautions/concerns(/expense of a guide in some cases) re. avalanche danger that entails. |
No I didn't, and in any case, many pistes ARE left ungroomed FFS.
I don't care if he or anyone else finds Face boring. It's ONE black run.
The comment below was the arrogant one:
| tangowaggon wrote: |
I am good enough to be disappointed that the more challenging pistes have the challenge taken away by lesser skiers that "Must" ski every slope on the mountain and demand that every piste is groomed. |
What a load of crap.
| a.j. wrote: |
Without the last 7 words 9which I have removed in my quote), there really isn't anything wrong with tangowaggon's post. He's certainly not the only person to find La Face boring (After staying in a chalet on the side of it it I heartily agree with him) and he's also right that when all runs are pisted it gets steadily more tricky for adventurous skiers to find interesting challenges without heading off piste which in europe does have insurance and risk implications. That's why nowadays I like Les Arcs - which leaves some natur. And intermediates (myself included) ARE a vociferous horde - we massively outnumber both beginner and expert skiers and resorts tend therefore to cater heavily to the intermediate need.
As a happy intermediate I wasn't offended, I rather liked the mental picture of a vociferous horde, I've definitely been in it at home time I've had to go back and read again to even work out what the fuss is about. |
As I said, I don't care about his comment about Face, it's one run! And as I will say yet again, many many blacks ARE left unpisted, certainly in the EK which is where he was talking about.
Enough now.
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Am I being obtuse, but aren't there huge unpisted blacks, reds, blues and greens in every resort?
I think it's called off-piste. I mean, if your that bloody brilliant why do you need piste markers
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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So, anyone else have any good ideas for resorts with good tough ungroomed blacks of calibre of EK/les Arcs?
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Q. EK - Espace Killy?
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Kicking Horse.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Espace Killy ie Tignes and Val dIsere
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NE1, the first time I went down Sache the final pitch before hitting the red had humongous moguls with flat drop offs, the next time (when I was "persuaded") I was dreading that bit, in fact it was a relief to find it was just icy. Haven't seen it with moguls like that since and really don't think you should over worry about it. In fact Silene was more difficult before they moved it out of the gully, even this season the 100 or so French squaddies I saw stranded on it would probably agree.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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NE1, Grands Montets. End of. Two great big bowls of powder or bumps and sometimes what you get in between.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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HoneyBunny, you may not have cared about his original post, but you cared enough to quote it complete with a rather sharp reply, and tangowaggon started taking heat right after it from dogwatch and jasmck159 which won the latter a smiley.
After the second post (the one I quoted above) dode joins in, and when tangowagoon makes a sarcastic reply to that you accuse him of being "horribly condescending". Hence it looked to me like he'd already hit a nerve by then. The post you're quoting as arrogant above is after all that so I figured by that point the damage was already done and didn't include it in my quote marathon above.
I think maybe we're all just suffering from snow withdrawal grumpiness mind. Maybe some summer skiing is in order 
aj x
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You know it makes sense.
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a.j., probably!! Thank you for the analysis  (a smiley for you too)
NE1, did Silene once, never again. That bit on Sache honestly isn't as bad as it looks. A few turns and you're down.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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HoneyBunny, I've been down the Sache at different times in very variable conditions and in all honestly preferred it with largish moguls than what felt like sheet ice at the corner area we're all talking about however overall it's a great run as most of it is in the middle of nowhere. Have they moved Silene, few years since I've been to Tignes and it used to drop into a mini gulley before rejoning the red?
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
overall it's a great run as most of it is in the middle of nowhere.
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Did it for the first time last week. Despite the fact there was sod all snow for the bottom 1/3 I loved it for precisely that reason. Great feeling of being away from it all.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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An interesting aside about pisting and leaving a piste au nautur. The last few metres of the red cachette run into arc 1600 usually has one side pisted and one side lift to to develop some rather flattering small moguls. The pisted side is usually really hard pack with each turn involving massive side slip for those of us who haven't sharpened their skies in the last hour (the kids from the Les Arcs ski club). The unpisted side is by far the easiest
clarky999, I think they are also patrolled. IMHO they are equivalent to the natur runs in France. In other words you do not need off-oiste insurance to be on them. Well I hope so.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Interestingly, or not, according to snow trax I ran out of talent at 80km/h on sache this year. Was a goody. And also funny. 
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johnE, I'm pretty sure they're not patrolled, just marked and avi controlled (in the Arlberg anyway). No idea how insurance works with them though.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I am bemused by the idea of a "permanently unpisted piste". Oxymoron? That is either a route, ie offsite with a few trail markers stuck into it, or just offpiste. An example of the former might be Tannegg or Wannele at St Anton.
If you want unpisted, but do not wish to go into serious backcountry, then go side-piste. Plenty of classic opportunities in St Anton of varying difficulty and exposure, eg Bachsiete, Galzig-St Christoph under the chair, Mattun, Hasenfluh-Scharte, Geisleger... (execuse the rubbish spellin).
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ulmerhutte, Good point well made.
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ulmerhutte, not really such an odd idea. Pisteing pistes brutally to withing an inch of their former selves is a reasonably modern response.
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Piste = marked trail or track
Off piste = anywhere outside of the marked trail or track
Piste grooming = compacting and evening out of the snow (using a machine) and is optional. However, it makes sense for the majority of pistes the majority of time.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Layne wrote: |
Piste = marked trail or track
Off piste = anywhere outside of the marked trail or track
Piste grooming = compacting and evening out of the snow (using a machine) and is optional. However, it makes sense for the majority of pistes the majority of time. |
Are you sure? Did you not read last 3 pages? It seems to be a lot more complicated than that
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ulmerhutte, an unpisted piste is pretty much what, at Ulmerhutte, they call a route.
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FAQ
