 Poster: A snowHead
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James the Last, no, there's (generally) a subtle distinction.
For example, the descent from le Fornet (Avoriaz) into the vallee de la Manche is now on the piste map as an "itineraire" (or something) but the pisteurs won't close it at the end of the day and it sure isn't marked.
Whereas the Chamossiere (Morzine) black is marked, patrolled, opened and closed but only very occasionally pisted. (Maybe more often these days after the reconfig.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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It's winch-grooming that has made all the difference. Until about 15 years ago very few blacks were pisted as they are generally too steep for rattracks to safely climb or descend un-tethered. Then they started putting winches on the back, and a ground-anchor at the top of the slope, and now winch themselves up and down. That's the reason tobogganing is now banned after dark, because the cables are strung around the pistes at neck-height! 
Whether they should winch-groom is another question. It was brought in as a safe (for the driver) way to make them more accessible, but in most conditions has spoiled them for advanced skiers.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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shep, and they shouldn't, of course.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| shep wrote: |
| but in most conditions has spoiled them for advanced skiers. |
Resort economics aren't driven by advanced skiers. That's the reality. How many resorts in Europe cater primarily for advanced skiers? I can think of one, possibly two and neither of those is Espace Killy, which kicked off this discussion.
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dogwatch, I don't think anyone was suggesting otherwise?
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| shep wrote: |
| ?...but in most conditions has spoiled them for advanced skiers. |
I honestly don't get this. There are not too many resorts where you cannot find ungroomed action close to the piste, ie you do not have to go into the backcountry to get away from groomers. Puzzled!
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| under a new name wrote: |
| dogwatch, I don't think anyone was suggesting otherwise? |
There isn't a lot of point in wanting "A" when resorts' business means they are going to do "B". At least for the motorway route home to the resort, which is what Face is.
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ulmerhutte, but (at least in the PDS) many of the previously excellent bump runs are now flat and boring.
dogwatch, I had some excellent bumps action in Courmayeur a few weekends ago on a slope marked - "ungroomed might be a little bumpy" - now I mention it there was (at least) one in Monterosa as well.
Chamonix/Grands Montets attracts much of its clientele from people who aren't looking for groomed slopes. See my point some posts above.
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As has been pointed out several times in this thread, most resorts provide a mixture of groomed and ungroomed blacks and there's an ungroomed alternative to the Face. For those who want all blacks ungroomed, I'd say "dream on". It's intermediates that keep resorts viable.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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dogwatch, there's not so much of a mix round the PDS these days, as bemoaned by Shep. A mix would be good! But there often isn't one...
Did skier days increase anywhere when they started grooming previously ungroomed slopes? I think not.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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dogwatch, ulmerhutte, I know what you're saying (which is why I said the grooming is "questionable"), but I'm not sure it's as simple as it looks. Yes advanced and expert skiers are in a small minority but I would suggest many parties include at least one, who is likely to have disproportionate influence on resort selection (party leader, skiing mad PE teacher, experienced Dad). Finer minds that ours (presumably) when they planned the resorts years ago chose a mix of terrain in the ratio that best appealed to everybody (say 10% green, 50% blue, 30% red, 10% black or whatever). But in those days the blacks were really challenging and the available equipment meant fewer people achieved the level to enjoy them. Winch-grooming and better skis/boards has skewed this in recent times. I think some resorts need to look out for losing a whole party to a different resort because the accepted wisdom amongst "good" skiers is that resort x is "boring" and the advanced skier in the party shies away.
As for advanced terrain being available side-country that's true, but I think the "old-school" blacks provided a transition into that world (in terms of technique and mountain-craft) which is missing when the blacks become slightly-steeper-reds. This either holds back the cautious, or over extends the brave/foolhardy. Many good skiers (like the OP for example) want challenging skiing, but also want the perceived "safety" of being on-piste, particularly vacation skiers in an unfamiliar resort. Consciously deciding to stop offering that just because you can, seems potentially counter-productive in my view.
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Why would you want a resort for black nuns?
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You know it makes sense.
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dulcamara, I take my nuns where I find them.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| ulmerhutte wrote: |
| shep wrote: |
| ?...but in most conditions has spoiled them for advanced skiers. |
I honestly don't get this. There are not too many resorts where you cannot find ungroomed action close to the piste, ie you do not have to go into the backcountry to get away from groomers. Puzzled! |
As many others have already said: Insurance, risk management/laziness at assessing terrain risk.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Ad the point is, I think, that there is a skill set required to ski steep, much skied and properly bumpy slopes that is not the same skill set that is required to ski untouched off piste. No-one has yet released ski that makes zip lining bumps facile.
shep, I think you ascribe a degree of wisdom to resort planners that was probably more to do with, "no, I don't want your poxy lift there, that's where my goats graze in April, put it somewhere else."
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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shep, well-considered and argued post. Yeah, better skis and winch grooming have opened up slopes of a steepness that hitherto were only for true experts.
Another thought... the mogul fields of today, shaped by today's skis and snowboards, are very different to when I started skiing (when 210 race skis, like the Atomic red sled, were the tool of choice).
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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shep, I like your argument, and could take it further - the elements that make up an 'intermediate' piste: degree of difficulty, number of, accessibility, alternate routes ending at same place etc. - tend not to distinguish resort from resort, and hence are not a determining factor when choosing the destination. It is the top end, or at least, the perception of same, justified or not, that make Chamonix different to Paradiski when be looked at by a non-snowhead, 1 week-a-year buyer
However.
Are you sure it is the wallet holder that is necessarily swayed by such considerations? The teens accompanying said provider of family holiday are more likely to be aware or interested in the gnarl than the middle aged fatboy paying for it. So, once determinants such as transfer time, ski in/out, accommodation quality (etc. and etc. ) are dealt with, then I suggest it is intermediate runs that will influence decision making.
Juts a thought.
edit A re-read tells me this wasn't at all clear! Let's try again...
The availability of tough stuff/ off-piste is what will constitute a 'difference' between resorts, for those to whom it matters. However, I contend that the demographic / wallet that most resorts are chasing wants mainly intermediate, and a 'bit tougher' to feel good on, but not so tough as to look silly.
Hence if the blacks are groomed / maintained, this may be the factor that swings it.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| ulmerhutte wrote: |
| shep wrote: |
| ?...but in most conditions has spoiled them for advanced skiers. |
I honestly don't get this. There are not too many resorts where you cannot find ungroomed action close to the piste, ie you do not have to go into the backcountry to get away from groomers. Puzzled! |
A few years ago, I arrived in Tignes as a body-recovery was in progress for two snowboarders who'd been caught up in an avalanche and swept into the frozen lake. They were less than 100m from a slope.
They had been foolish. The slope is prone to avalanche and conditions were dangerous. But how did they know that their bit of 'action close to the piste' was more dangerous than any other action close the slope?
As Schumacher would note if he were able, you can't be a little bit off piste.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Jonny Jones, your point being? Other than that foolishness has its own reward?
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under a new name, my point was that ulmerhutte's point didn't make a great deal of sense.
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Jonny Jones, I agree. Having ungroomed blacks, or avalanche protected "intineraries" means that there will be something for advanced skiers who want to stay within the "safe" resort boundaries. Once you venture off-piste, whether between the pistes, as in the avalanche under Toviere in Tignes, or truly off-piste, you need a different set of skills, and perhaps more importantly, a different knowledge set. The people who want to ski difficult blacks, or initeraries (the slackcountry), will not necessarily be the same people who venture into the backcountry.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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All skiing (& all life) has a certain amount of risk, you have to asses the risk and make your choices. Vegetating on the sofa typing nonsense probably increases your risk of a earlier death as well as wasting your life.
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Lechbob, +1
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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ulmerhutte, it's disingenuous to suggest that the avi-controllers - local experst who've spent many years understanding where and when the risks fall on a particular mountain - are no more effective at assessing risk than a random dude who enjoys a bit of tough skiing.
Of course tragedies can occur on piste or with a guide off piste. It doesn't follow that the risk is the same as on a randon bit of 'ungroomed action close to the piste.' That's why it's important for a resort to have tough stuff within the piste network.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I rode yesterday in a white out. Some of the time I was probably outside the locus of the point connecting adjacent piste markers. I was, therefore, most certainly "a little bit off piste". Despite the fact that I was riding a piste board, without transceiver, insurance, or any interest in celebrities.
The idea that if you "follow the rules" you are somehow immune to risk is a basic fallacy. Still, if it keeps you out of my way when I'm "a little bit off piste", that's grand. Let's hope that the risk knows where the piste markers are, even if I don't.
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| Jonny Jones wrote: |
| ulmerhutte, it's disingenuous to suggest that the avi-controllers - local experst who've spent many years understanding where and when the risks fall on a particular mountain - are no more effective at assessing risk than a random dude who enjoys a bit of tough skiing. |
One of us has a comprehension problem. Help me decide who, Jonny. Where did I make that suggestion?
Just for clarity, I am not advocating that anybody should go off piste, side country, or back country. Hell, I am not even advocating you get out of bed. You make your choices, assess the risks, and live with the outcomes. I was merely pointing out that there are options when you get to the point where the toughest blacks are no longer a challenge.
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You know it makes sense.
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But ungroomed inbounds in North America/Canada is essentially the same as off piste in Europe, with all the enjoyment but less hassle 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| AJQ wrote: |
| But ungroomed inbounds in North America/Canada is essentially the same as off piste in Europe, with all the enjoyment but less hassle |
But can be tracked like crazy in the blink of an eye. Not that the Chinese downhill when they drop a rope isn't fun.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I'm a bit puzzled no one has mentioned Alpe d'Huez yet.
Best known run "Sarenne" is nice, but not particularly steep. Just long, but much of that is the long path through the gorge.
No, the best black runs are on the front side, lots of them, VERY long and next to each other.
First of all, the tunnel piste
Really steep, without interruption, over 500 meters / 1500 feet vertical
Then, Combe Charbonniere, long steep and through its own valley without seeing any lifts or other pistes
Then there's the "La Fare" piste which goes from Pic Blanc (3300) to the valley floor at 1100, a whopping 2200 (!!!!!) height metres. And it's a REAL black run. Because of it's north exposition on the bottom part (and of course some help with artificial snow) this descent is open most of the season.
And finally worth to mention "La fuma" with the steepest drag lift in europe
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
"La fuma" with the steepest drag lift in europe
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http://www.skipass.com/forums/enmontagne/stations_ski_france/remontees_mecaniques/sujet-52958.html
Interesting discussion here on where the steepest drag is - with the usual confusion between degrees and percentage of slopes. The téléski "Seigneurs" in Flumet is pretty difficult and in there with a shout of being the steepest overall - and certainly difficult because the only escape is a hike through woods to a steep and generally unpisted black run.
Il s'agit du TK le plus difficile de tout l'Espace Diamant et probablement l'un des plus durs de France avec ses 66% de pente maximale, ses 550 mètres de dénivelée et son kilomètre et demi de longueur.
But the Espace Diamant is definitely not in the running for having the best selection of black runs.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Onnem, +1 for mentioning Alpe d'Huez but the lift that goes with LaFuma, is erm... a chairlift 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Onnem, Yes, got changed to a chair about 2000 I think. You need to put Alpe d'Huez on your "to go to" list, been a lot of changes and new lifts.
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| Quote: |
could be they replaced it by a chair
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sadly, that's the way of the world, along with "smoothing out" the trickier bits of piste with a "coup de bull". One fairly steep, but short and straight drag, in Les Saisies was replaced by a slower chair two years ago. Not an improvement, as the drag had kept a great sector with two reds and a black, often unpisted after heavy snow, very quiet!
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I was going to put Col d'Ornon up but as the title was "black runs" it does not actually qualify "une piste noire qui fait partie des plus pentues de l'Isere" 
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| But [ungroomed inbounds in North America/Canada ] can be tracked like crazy in the blink of an eye. Not that the Chinese downhill when they drop a rope isn't fun. |
Yes, but you can easily ride untracked powder on piste several days after a storm if you have a little initiative.
On the OP, thinking about places I know well, here's a few random ideas:
- Winter Park is rare for a Colorado resort in that it has a lot of good reasonably sporting bump runs.
- Taos doesn't really groom much at all, has some good terrain, and the hordes don't get there.
- Revelstoke was built in the right location for good snow and is steep.
Overall, it's probably just the wrong approach to deciding where you want to go, unless your goal is bragging rights down the pub.
Hard/ good terrain can be found anywhere, it's as DotM suggests about being there when the world and dog aren't. That's why I'd mostly rather ride "family" resorts than places tour operators think are for "advanced skiers". Families don't ride the good terrain, and you don't have to share with people who think they're "advanced".
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
dogwatch, ulmerhutte, I know what you're saying (which is why I said the grooming is "questionable"), but I'm not sure it's as simple as it looks. Yes advanced and expert skiers are in a small minority but I would suggest many parties include at least one, who is likely to have disproportionate influence on resort selection (party leader, skiing mad PE teacher, experienced Dad). Finer minds that ours (presumably) when they planned the resorts years ago chose a mix of terrain in the ratio that best appealed to everybody (say 10% green, 50% blue, 30% red, 10% black or whatever). But in those days the blacks were really challenging and the available equipment meant fewer people achieved the level to enjoy them. Winch-grooming and better skis/boards has skewed this in recent times. I think some resorts need to look out for losing a whole party to a different resort because the accepted wisdom amongst "good" skiers is that resort x is "boring" and the advanced skier in the party shies away.
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In our case, the family half term ski holiday is governed by economics and the fact that a friend of the family has an apartment in Soldeu, Andorra where the mountain is pisted to within an inch of it's life, the only saving grace is that the steeper runs are frequently deserted and they can be carved at mach 10.
I've never been to Alp d'Huez, One for next season.
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| Quote: |
| Then there's the "La Fare" piste which goes from Pic Blanc (3300) to the valley floor at 1100, a whopping 2200 (!!!!!) height metres. And it's a REAL black run. |
Really? I thought it was a red with a rubbish lift out of the bottom so it was graded black to discourage too much traffic. A really nice run - rather than a really black run, just IMHO of course.
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FAQ
