 Poster: A snowHead
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Hi,
I spent a couple of great days skiing in courcheval around the cluster of black runs towards the top of the valley. I was wondering if there are any other resorts that have lots of black runs close together, as normally the black runs are spread out accross the resort?
I know people rave about chamonix, but looking at the piste map below there aren't many black runs so I guess it's all about off piste? Whereas I want the safety of being on piste, but the convenience of a lot of black runs in the same area.
http://www.skirebel.com/magazine/ski-resort-pictures/573344/Chamonix-Piste-Map.jpg
Does what I want exist outside of courcheval? 
Thanks,
mnbv
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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mnbv, Don't know exactly what you want but in St Anton many of the black runs are off the Valluga and environs they are well concentrated though most are now officially designated high alpine routes or something like that they are basically like black runs.
In Val d'Isere you don't have to do a lot of skiing to get between most of the black runs.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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a lot of the off piste in grand montets is safe and controlled, particularly between the bruson and herse lifts - its like a giant freeride bowl / zone. There is nothing special about a black run, most are the same pitch as reds but narrower or with drops off the side. Don't know why people get so hung up on the color of the poles 
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coddlesangers, most black runs are steeper than reds. You could equally say that reds are the same pitch as the blues. To me the significant difference is that black runs should not be pisted and hence consist largely of big mogul fields.
mnbv, There are not many black runs around that compare to the grand couloir in Courcheval. You are right it is a magnificent run. Many of the Tarrentaise resorts have good black runs: Les Menuires has La masse (sadly often pisted), Meribel is short of brilliant black runs but there are a couple of really nice reds down the Vallon. They have opened up the two good ones on the Bellecote in La Plagne again.
Les Arcs has an number of really good ones from the Varet telecabine and Comborciere and Ours (IMHO a better cluster than in Courchevel) and even the short but delightful deux tetes. I think it has the best cluster of black runs you will find anywhere.
Tignes has the sache du vallon and Val d'Isere: La foret and many more
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Yes, but many reds are steeper than some blacks, it depends where you are. My point was that once you can ski with competence, which I assume someone looking for mainly blacks can, you are probably at the stage where you should be aiming for more off piste anyway, hence chamonix may be a very good answer..
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I have never had the courage to do sache du Vallon. I like to look at first and you can't see that run apart from the very narrow, steep bit into Brev. The top is flat and I think 'go on', but it has to be a black for some reason and the bit into Brev can't be it.
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mnbv, you could try North America? Inbounds ungroomed runs and a lot of double black diamonds make most European black runs look pretty tame
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NE1, the bit i to Breviere is the steepest part by far.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Hauts forts Avoriaz
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mnbv, Chamonix has long, unlisted black runs you could do forever. Not so many in number, but in length and quality they are superb. From the Grands Montets Point de Vue and Pylons are amazing.
In Brevant don't be fooled that the track of Charles Bozon is the black bit- to do that- go straight down (very steep).
Val D'Isere has some gems: Trolles- can be v steep and icy- we watched a few people have massive slides on it, Sache is a classic, Epaule du Charvet is steep. The naturide pistes are the best though- for a real episode of on piste fear and butt clenching try Paquarettes. Anyone know how steep Paquarettes is- I'd guess very steep.
Les Arcs also has some good ones- I think it's Combourciere which is the long mogul run under a chairlift- invariably when we take th elift over it, about 2/3rds the way down, we pass over a couple having a bit of a domestic (we shout encouragement- can't help it).
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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The Hollkar valley at Iscghl has 5 blacks around the top - great skiing there a few weeks ago in the afternoon as they are north facing and the snow was in super condition.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Got to say that the blacks at Copper can kill your legs. Either glazed over or 300m of butt crunching moguls . . . steeper than the race piste. The shorter chutes are just ugly . . . though probable a good intro to gully skiing.
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mnbv, that's a pretty crappy chamonix map. 1970s? 
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You know it makes sense.
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NE1, Sache is lovely. The only black bit is the short mogulled section just above where it intersects with the red. It's not that steep and overall Sache is a lovely run for any competent intermediate. I can do it and I'm a wuss!
For example, there is no way you'd get me on the aforementioned Pacquarettes, or Grizzly for that matter. You can see them from the top of the run down to Trolles and they look terrifying!
The blacks in Espace Killy are certainly worth a try for the adventurous. La Face is one of my favourite runs.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
La Face is one of my favourite runs.
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I did this a few times this January, admittedly, the snow cover was not to it's usual depth but apart from a few moguls at the sides it was just horrid, pisted flat and boring
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Does what I want exist outside of courcheval
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With the exception of Grand coulouir, Courcheval has little challenging skiing, there are some nice unpisted "Natur" runs in the paradis ski area
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
| I guess it's all about off piste? Whereas I want the safety of being on (a black) piste |
 I tend to feel the opposite, most of the time.
btw, is Courcheval anywhere near Courchevel?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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shep, thank God! I've been having a hard time not living up to my name.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| tangowaggon wrote: |
I did this a few times this January, admittedly, the snow cover was not to it's usual depth but apart from a few moguls at the sides it was just horrid, pisted flat and boring
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Well you're clearly a gnarly expert. I'm not, and for me it's an enjoyable challenge.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
I've been having a hard time not living up to my name.
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Pedantica,  I was wondering.....
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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They only mark the first couloir on the piste map, but to my recollection those are the only serious runs in Courchevel. Mostly I remember lots of motorway. You'll be fine elsewhere.
The comment about on-piste / off-piste may be relevant to Europe but not North America.
If a black run is a horrid flat and boring track with beginners slithering all over it, that's because the experts know it's out of condition so they're riding something else.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| tangowaggon wrote: |
| Quote: |
La Face is one of my favourite runs.
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I did this a few times this January, admittedly, the snow cover was not to it's usual depth but apart from a few moguls at the sides it was just horrid, pisted flat and boring |
How awful for you to have to share the mountain with people who like it that way. We are not worthy to ski in your tracks.
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Kicking Horse, Jackson Hole or Whistler. Lake Louise shouldn't be under estimated either.
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tangowaggon wrote:
I did this a few times this January, admittedly, the snow cover was not to it's usual depth but apart from a few moguls at the sides it was just horrid, pisted flat and boring.
HoneyBunney wrote:
Well you're clearly a gnarly expert. I'm not, and for me it's an enjoyable challenge.
Basing my judgement solely on the aforementioned comment, tongowaggon certainly appears to be a something!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Aren't all ski pistes white (with the odd brown patch) anyway ?
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| ski wrote: |
| Aren't all ski pistes white (with the odd brown patch) anyway ? |
Depends some really really steep ones have brown streaks running down them and some very remote ones yellow patches at their sides 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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speed098,
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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jasmck159, 
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| Quote: |
HoneyBunney wrote:
Well you're clearly a gnarly expert. I'm not, and for me it's an enjoyable challenge.
Basing my judgement solely on the aforementioned comment, tongowaggon certainly appears to be a something!
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Fair comment but black runs were always rated "expert" on resort stats ie a facility for expert skiers, when they are pisted flat so that the vociferous hordes of intermediates can get down them, they are no longer a facility or challenge for expert skiers and offpiste with all the issue that go with offpiste skiing is the only option for better skiers looking for a challenge, sorry if my skiing ability offends you.
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You know it makes sense.
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| mnbv wrote: |
Does what I want exist outside of courcheval?
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You'd probably like Verbier although most of the "black" runs are now marked as itineraries
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| shep wrote: |
btw, is Courcheval anywhere near Courchevel? |
Just Courch darlink, just Courch
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Poster: A snowHead
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tangowaggon, I don't think anyone has ever been offended by another's skiing ability.... Maybe time to look elsewhere?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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The Bruson side of Verbier has a lot of black runs that are pisted and it is very quiet over there.... In Verbier itself the Greppon Blanc run is very long for a black gradient and challenging at high speeds
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
How awful for you to have to share the mountain with people who like it that way. We are not worthy to ski in your tracks.
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Yea Yea, if black runs are pisted flat so intermediates can get down them, perhaps red runs should be changed to allow beginners to ski them?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| tangowaggon wrote: |
sorry if my skiing ability offends you. |
It doesn't, there will always be someone better than you.
You are horribly condescending though.
How will intermediates ever get better if they don't ski more challenging runs? Or should they all be reserved for the amazing experts like you? Honestly you have typed such drivel.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
How will intermediates ever get better if they don't ski more challenging runs
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So where do they go once they can ski a pisted black run well?
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there will always be someone better than you
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There's a hell of a lot of people better than me, I don't regard myself as that good at skiing but I am good enough to be disappointed that the more challenging pistes have the challenge taken away by lesser skiers that "Must" ski every slope on the mountain and demand that every piste is groomed.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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tangowaggon,
Why is skiing a pisted black run well the end on piste ? You can go down that same run time and again and never ski it the same way twice be it flat or the gnarliest mogul field. Skiing it well is the start point for skiing it great and being able to play around with turn shapes, pressure and position. This can be the same on any run no matter the colour just enjoy.
Maybe look at taking an instructors course even if you don't want to teach you will still learn so much and your skiing no matter what level will be enriched by the experience.
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In my area most black runs are groomed quite frequently (at least one every day) and others - the most difficult - rarely or never. I suspect the vast majority of recreational skiers prefer pisted runs, so that seems a reasonable compromise to me and given that it costs the resorts a good deal of money they presumably wouldn't do it unless they thought that was what customers wanted. If some gnarly skier wants more challenge he can ski them backwards, or on one leg, or blindfolded, or take up telemark or snowboarding or explore the safe and accessible off piste areas or go ski touring.
My own pet beef is the replacement of difficult drag lifts with chairs - the drags served to discourage the riff-raff.
In Val d'Isere, given that La Face is one of the few ways down on skis, I feel that frequent grooming makes sense, especially given the silly reluctance of many skiers to download in a lift.
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| tangowaggon wrote: |
I am good enough to be disappointed that the more challenging pistes have the challenge taken away by lesser skiers that "Must" ski every slope on the mountain and demand that every piste is groomed. |
There are plenty of very steep and mogulled pistes and itineraries in the EK which are never groomed, or did they disappoint you too?
They are where the "lesser" skiers go when they improve.
Your arrogance is breathtaking.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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pam w,
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In Val d'Isere, given that La Face is one of the few ways down on skis, I feel that frequent grooming makes sense, especially given the silly reluctance of many skiers to download in a lift.
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Not sure about this, runs left to bump up slow skiers down quite a bit(good and bad), I would hazard a guess that there are far fewer accidents on ungroomed than groomed steeps.
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| speed098 wrote: |
Why is skiing a pisted black run well the end on piste ? You can go down that same run time and again and never ski it the same way twice be it flat or the gnarliest mogul field. Skiing it well is the start point for skiing it great and being able to play around with turn shapes, pressure and position. This can be the same on any run no matter the colour just enjoy.
Maybe look at taking an instructors course even if you don't want to teach you will still learn so much and your skiing no matter what level will be enriched by the experience. |
Yes.
Also,descending the left or right or middle of the same piste often provides a very different experience. Couple of weeks back in VT, I came across some very challenging red pistes - frozen hard, but due to the sun position very different in different places and at different times of the day.
I also enjoy a mogul field (sometimes) and of course - skiing as slowly as I can on a blue slope - really very hard to do well and efficiently - there is much more to learn on piste when one has 'conquered' the black runs.
Off piste is a different world with different skill requirements.
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FAQ
