 Poster: A snowHead
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Having just posted the Youtube film of Wendy Fisher, and being in the midst of helping a Swiss ski school design its programme for the coming season, I wanted to canvas interest in all female ski camps. Some of the responses to the Supermom film and over the years made me think that this might be important to helping and encouraging female skiers. I've followed Lynsey Dyer's fascinating take on female skiing for some years now, working with ages 3-80.
If there's genuine interest I could get this provision going with the female instructors I know. It would be based in Switzerland (2 hrs from Geneva and accessible by train) and could include
Provision for older women returning to skiing
Young women starting out and wanting to improve
Specific training
Avalanche training
Off piste coaching and guiding
Park stuff
Any interest? And boys ... either hold with the nonsense comments or keep it clean....
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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No thanks. Not keen on Wimmin Only groups, sorry. But I accept that a lot of people do like testosterone-free lessons. Being a glutton for punishment, I like the challenge of trying (even if mostly failing) to keep up with gung-ho blokes. 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I have to be honest- I ski far better with the boys and I'd probably get pissed off with a lesson full of women.
Equality not segregation
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Nadenoodlee wrote: |
I have to be honest- I ski far better with the boys and I'd probably get pissed off with a lesson full of women.
Equality not segregation |
Exactly, Sister! 
geepee, you're FAR faster than me when you're firing on all cylinders!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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I would not specifically look for a female group, nor strive officiously to avoid one. I'd be more likely to look at location, cost, how the course was structured and other factors. I've not found mixed learning groups a problem because if people are genuinely there to listen, and learn, they are thinking about what they are doing, and their own progress and not trying to get one over on others. Generally I've found that others in the groups I've been in, even if stronger skiers than I, are supportive and friendly. The competitive and "gung ho" types probably don't think they need lessons.
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Nah, I prefer mixed groups. As long as you're all roughly the same ability, that's the main thing.
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I'm also happy with mixed groups.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I would rather ski with a mixed group as well
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Pedantica, pam w, HoneyBunny, Iski, Linds,
....well that's looks like a 'No' then....
many thanks all so far....
right....next project.....
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I don't mind skiing with all girl groups.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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pam w, ..thanks pam yes was aware of 'inspired' folk and of Lynsey d's notion of 'skiing in the envelope and pushing the boundaries and not simply competing to be balls out and injuring yourself all the time' and was wondering if there was more demand for female camps than is provided by current provision....
Lynsey d:
http://www.skinet.com/skiing/articles/checking-pretty-faces
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Poster: A snowHead
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Pedantica, Nadenoodlee, HoneyBunny, Iski, Linds, +1
Also I can't bear all this wimmins shizzle at work.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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valais2, why would a women's group need a female instructor?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Pedantica wrote: |
geepee, you're FAR faster than me when you're firing on all cylinders! |
That's a date then next season.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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geepee, 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Although a bloke - so not interested for me... I can think of a lot of female friends who might well like a ladies only ski holiday...
However...
There does seem to be a tradition (right or wrong) that if only one of a couple goes skiing it is a 'boys' trip - often a long weekend...
The girl sems to only go if it is a family trip...
However that doesn't mean it couldn't work - if you only need 8-16 people, there are probably that many out there interested in a niche trip, and once done the word would spread...
Alasdair
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I always ski with mr mogulski as we do ski at the same pace - many couples are at different standards. Group skiing is often male orientated so I enjoy finding a group of like-minded women. Had a great couple of afternoons this winter skiing with the other female judges after the world cup moguls in Norway. (There were 5 female judges and only 1 of the men skied after the competition) Can I join Pedantica's group of female OAPs next winter?
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| Quote: |
Can I join Pedantica's group of female OAPs next winter?
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you'd be most welcome, but I suspect you might find our skiing more than a tad pedestrian, mogulski.
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| holidayloverxx wrote: |
Pedantica, Nadenoodlee, HoneyBunny, Iski, Linds, +1
Also I can't bear all this wimmins shizzle at work. |
I couldn't either! And was a severe disappointment to some of the young women in my office as a result.
mogulski, I didn't mean to give the impression we ski as a group, or rather as an exclusive group! Perish the thought. One of the things I like best about skiing is the opportunity to ski with younger men.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Pedantica, +1 again!
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If I were to go on a ski clinic, I would like to be with people of a similar fitness/skill level, but I wouldn't care at all whether it was a mixed or single gender group - I'd happily go with either. I had thought (and I think this is information gleaned from snowHeads) that there are differences in female/male biomechanics that can impact ski technique but maybe that's nonsense, and there really isn't much of a rationale for women only groups?
With the exception of a school trip to Switzerland, I've always had male instructors until moving to France, where my regular instructor is now female. I do like skiing with her a lot - I ended up with her by chance and had no preference for the gender of ski instructor, but have deliberately stuck with her ever since. Although it's by no means the overriding factor, if I'm honest I think her gender probably does have some small sort of significance for me, in that she's very fit, strong and skilled and does anything and everything that the very, fit, strong and skilled blokes do, which I find inspiring. There have been threads on here about men dominating the more difficult off piste stuff, so I don't think I'm being totally crazy for being inspired by a woman who's out there doing it too.
| holidayloverxx wrote: |
Also I can't bear all this wimmins shizzle at work. |
I've only got very limited experience (and years ago now) of working for companies/in office jobs, so have never experienced anything like that… what sort of things are you talking about?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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miranda, women only groups, women only learning sets, all the stuff that women need to have special arrangements to compete with men in the workplace. If a woman e.g. has children and wants to continue her career IMHO there's nothing stopping her. I don't dispute that people need, and should get, e.g. flexible working, transition back into work etc etc etc...but to me it's not a woman only issue. Women make their own choices; if they want to reach senior positions i believe that they will do that as a result of their own ability to organise their lives and developemnt in such a way that supports the ambition - if they can't do that then maybe they're just not good enough or they should have made different choices. We need to look at people as individuals not a gender group.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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miranda, Pedantica, pam w, OK .... Since the discussion has opened up rather than closed down, at risk of many flames arriving, here goes ....
Most of you who have responded are already women who have made it to a high level of skiing, so like me, are not bothered about the gender mix when on the hill - but I look at the gender balance in coaching groups and of those heading off piste and into the park and wonder how many young girls have started skiing and then been pushed away or discouraged as they progress. What we know is that there is massive gender difference in participation in sport - for example over 50pc of girls are discouraged from further participation in sport as a result of school experiences (source dept media and sport). Stoddard's research in Canada shows very different rates of on piste and off piste participation - now some may see this a matter of choice but the research suggests that the culture can be excluding of women.
Upshot? We can leave it all as it is and say 'that's just the way it is' or some of us with means to give better access for women can sort out how young girls and women can find routes to the wilder things rather than being excluded.
Right....(sits back and waits for the flames to arrive)
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valais2, I think there is a market for women only ski lessons, the concept may not appeal to every woman skier but the opportunity should exist for those that want it. Choice is always a good thing.
I am unlikely to go on any course but if I did I would be tempted by the idea of an all female one as the vast majority of my skiing has always been with men. It would be nice to have some female company for a change 
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You know it makes sense.
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valais2, No flames from me - each to their own. The market will decide if it's a good idea
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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valais2,
| Quote: |
What we know is that there is massive gender difference in participation in sport - for example over 50pc of girls are discouraged from further participation in sport as a result of school experiences (source dept media and sport). Stoddard's research in Canada shows very different rates of on piste and off piste participation - now some may see this a matter of choice but the research suggests that the culture can be excluding of women.
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If there is evidence of a need, I'd say go for it. The fact that it's not something some of us would personally want is irrelevant.
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Poster: A snowHead
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holidayloverxx, cross post. Exactly.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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If there are all-female groups then for the reasons set out by miranda I think a female instructor would be a good thing - providing a role model. I strongly agree with valais2 about low female participation in sport and anything which can be done to increase it can only be a good thing. I wonder how Inspired to Ski do with the courses for women?
easiski's formula of "Cautious to Confident" seems a very good one to me, especially if run in conjunction with a course for more confident (if not terribly competent  ) people to do something more challenging, such as off-piste. It's not gender-based but looks specifically at the reasons for low confidence and tries to address them. There were 2 men on the Cautious to Confident course in January.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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pam w, I don't really get gender specific role models either.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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holidayloverxx, you're a tough cookie! It's more important for younger women, perhaps, just thinking about participation. My son in law, a PE teacher, despairs of the example being set by the female PE teachers in his school - he says they are all overweight, without exception, and generally idle!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
Women make their own choices; if they want to reach senior positions i believe that they will do that as a result of their own ability to organise their lives and developemnt in such a way that supports the ambition - if they can't do that then maybe they're just not good enough or they should have made different choices.
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I left the Uk 6 yrs ago and I would say that in UK, in my experience , women could aspire to equality at work and I would have agreed with your statement and felt the same. In my current company its clear they can't- there are 66 shareholders that run the company (called the Associates and Principals), not one is female and yet there are plenty of females at the company. I see that as a problem because mixed gender teams make much better decisions than single gender teams and boards with at least one woman mean that companies are less likely to go bankrupt. And what has happened in my company is they promote in their own likeness and champion those who they are comfortably similar to. Result, company run by people who all think alike. Consequently I see poor decisions being made and I am now concerned about the governance. I can't become a shareholder as I am part-time and its written in their legal agreement that part-time workers can't be shareholders but nonetheless there are plenty of other women who are worthy of it; so this beef isn't about me, its about successful running of our company. We work in a talent poor environment and our profit margins are determined by the number of people we can attract. Because we lack women at the top, and our competitors don't its now beginning to impact our ability to retain and attract staff. Bottom line= bad. They keep saying they promote on talent, but honestly having worked with many of the female talent at our company I don't believe they are talentless the way they imply. In addition we have an annual 'engagement survey' and surprise surprise we find the females are less engaged that the males.
I think gender specific role models are important; I see it for my daughter.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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valais2, as a cycling coach I can confirm that women only cycling groups and coached groups are pretty popular in the UK, same for running too (check out the Breeze for cycling and women's running network).
Yes I know many female cyclists who like mixing it with the blokes, but these tend to be experienced and fit..... but there are still lots who want to start out, get fit, are cautious or who want to improve without blokes being around.
As a result I think the idea definitely has legs as long as you can market it in the right places/way. No disrespect to the experienced lady skiers on the forum, but they would probably never be the market you would aiming at.
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| Quote: |
No disrespect to the experienced lady skiers on the forum
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No disrespect detected, but we ARE people who take holidays where good quality tuition is a key element and who are willing to pay good money to improve our skiing - and that's the market the OP needs to aim at. Only a minority of holiday skiers seem to take lessons after the first year or so. And I would be uncomfortable to be put in a "skilled and experienced skier" category - it doesn't feel that way - I started at 40 and one never catches up, it seems. I looked at one of the Inspired to ski courses not because it was all-female (though that wouldn't bother me) but because it was geographically and time-wise something I could fit in. It didn't work, in the end, but I do think that older female skiers could well be a prime target group for courses. They have more leisure, more money and fewer family complications to juggle. When I've done courses (not just ski, also sailing, over many years and more recently a "return to cycling" and "cycle maintenance" course), a good proportion of the participants have been over 50.
I don't think there's a direct correlation with cycling (and I know one of the local Breeze coaches, and have dabbled with the website, though not yet actually been on a ride with them......) but hammerite's post underlines the need to look at the barriers to participation.
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I suspect there is a market in all these wives that the guys on here moan about!!
My friend did a female specific advanced course at Sunshine; it sounded great before she took it but in reality none of the women (apart from her) were adventurous and that limited what she learnt.
I suspect on here, the women are more the adventurous types and its the women who don't come on here that are more the target market, regardless of age.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
I suspect there is a market in all these wives that the guys on here moan about!!
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I don't altogether agree, because if they wanted to learn to ski better, they've generally had plenty of opportunities to do so, and presumably just aren't that keen. On the first dinghy sailing course I did, years ago, there was a woman whose husband had persuaded her to take the course - he was a cruiser sailor and wanted her to learn to sail, so she'd enjoy it more. She loved the course and did fine, but told me that she was happy to get wet and cold provided she could then have a long hot shower, a nice supper in a room which stayed still and a comfy bed - none of them options on a cruising yacht of sub-millionaire class.
Some of the wives that guys moan about will probably never be good, or keen, skiers - it's just not them. Skiing is a lot like sailing - positively scary and uncomfortable if it's not what you've chosen to do yourself.
If I had a partner who was a keen golfer and desperate for me to get lessons and get involved I'd tell him to take a jump.
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I am also in the camp that prefers a mixed group. I also like the challenge of keeping up with the lads on the slope. There are some sports where women aren't physically strong enough to equal their male counterparts, but I don't think that recreational skiing is one of them.
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FAQ
