 Poster: A snowHead
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| T Bar wrote: |
Insiders,
Along with many others my own answer is that I would not be prepared to pay extra because I don't need the extras things when I'm on a skiing holiday, I generally self cater to do it on the cheap and get more than one holiday per year.
Nowt wrong with offering a premium product for a premium price though if that's what people want. I suspect the big problem is is that very few chalet operators are particularly full in their description and use a lot of adjectives implying luxury when the truth is somewhat different. |
On the whole I agree with this. However, I think different people have different ideas of what luxury is, and what are luxuries compared to what is essential. I have enjoyed a couple of great holidays in hostels with bunk beds, a shared self-catering kitchen and a bathroom on the next floor. Usually though I'd look for something a little more comfortable. I'd usually pay the necessary for an ensuite bathroom, and would consider paying a bit more for a sauna, which I would consider a luxury but one which does add to the holiday in my opinion. I wouldn't pay extra for plush surroundings, as they don't matter to me on a ski holiday.
When it comes to food, I much prefer good 'home cooking' to anything fancy. I am a bit of a foodie normally, but after a day on the mountain I want tasty, filling and fairly simple. I stayed in a chalet marketed as budget last year, and much prefered the lasagne, stews etc to the French style dishes we had to serve when running a midrange chalet.
A lot of chalet operators do exagerate the luxury, but there are also a lot of chalet cooks/host, who may not be trained chefs but really do take pride in the food they serve. The average age with the company I worked for was closer to 30 than 20 as well, with several people in their 30s. Almost all had taken some kind of course or had previous experience, and did a great job. I don't think there are that many companies who would take an 18 year old without experience and put them in a cooking role, and these companies are fairly easy to avoid.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Insiders wrote: |
| What would be considered an accetable price for really good quality food prepared by an actual chef, with a high standard of service? for me it would be around the £600pp mark (for nice very comfy chalet, w/ hot tub, catered with transfers, book your own flights)... but i'm still curious what others think? |
If it was known to be that good and hassle free, so there was no need to search around for reviews, book extras, sort stuff out, etc., then yes, I'd think £600pp sounds reasonable. Not great value, but perfectly reasonable. However for people willing to search and put a bit of leg work there are great value places around, that offer that level of quality for a fair whack less than £600pp. You might find buyers at £600pp, but I'd imagine it'd be a bit tricky. Unless we're talking expensive Swiss resort perhaps, which I don't have any experience of.
It's not about what's reasonable, it's about what the competition charge. I normally look for the things you're talking about, but with a bit of research would expect £600pp to cover catered chalet, transfers and either flights or lift pass as a minimum. Usually I work on spending ~£300-350 chalet, £80-100 flights, £50-80 transfers, so even taking the highest of these £600 is pushing it a bit. That's not to say it isn't reasonable for a really good place with great service, I've just never found it necessary to spend that in order to get it.
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| For me, a holiday - whether i'm skiing or not, is to enjoy better things than i get at home and not to just make do with what's on offer especially when i could cook better at home |
I think for most people a holiday is simply a break - being able to relax with someone else doing the chores. Having a better place and nicer food than at home is enjoyable, but I doubt it's essential for many people. For example I'm a foodie, so while I am willing to pay for good food when I go on holiday, I eat good food at home too, and would have to find somewhere really special to eat better food. Which isn't necessary for skiing in my view - I want tasty sustenance, and am happy to save the elaborate gourmet food for a holiday more focused around that.
I have to say I think you're approaching the whole idea of price the wrong way here. People's expectations are not set by how expensive it would be in the UK, or any sense of what is reasonable when adding up the various bits, it's set by experience. It's not unreasonable to expect great service at an average price if that's what you've done before. It would be unreasonable to expect that without putting in some legwork - with a tour operator for example - but in my experience nobody expects gourmet food from them. They may complain if it's awful, but it being just ok is fine for most people (as an aside I find it weird they're so keen to put on 3 course meals, as I'd far rather they just made a giant pot of someone good and wholesome).
The bottom line is that this is a saturated, competitive market, where lots of people would like to work, which drives down prices and profits and means people can expect good quality for less than the prices you suggest.
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pam w, you think £600 is too low? I appreciate there are some really luxury chalets around that are as you describe, but there's a lot between the standard tour operator fare and exclusive luxury. I usually go with groups of 8+, have sole occupancy of a decent catered chalet, and have never paid near to £600 each. Admittedly we don't go in half terms or Christmas/New Year, but depending on the size it doesn't need all the staff you mention. The best one I ever stayed in had one chalet host who happened to be a talented chef, plus did the driving and organised stuff, and a couple of gap year kids who did cleaning and other odds and ends (helping in the kitchen, waiting tables, etc.). This for a chalet of about 14 (the chalet slept a few more but would have been a bit of a squeeze).
Sure, if you have lots more people you might need more staff, but you also get more money and it's easily scalable. Other than a chef there aren't many specialist skills needed, so as long as one person can cook well it's just a question of how many people you need and how to divide up jobs. To take the example above, I'd estimate we were paying the equivalent of about £150 each more than we would for a non-catered chalet, so probably £2000-2500 in total for the catering, cleaning, travel to slopes, etc. That's easily enough to hire a talented chef/host and a couple of helpers, pay for the ingredients and the upkeep of a minibus, and make a bit of profit. I'm sure there are economies of scale if doing it for more people in a larger chalet.
I'm sure you can get even better service paying more and having more staff - as you say luxury chalets go sky high with the price, as there are people rich enough to not mind spending large sums - but you don't need to spend that much to get a trained chef and good service.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
it doesn't need all the staff you mention
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it does if you are going to provide the kind of service rich people expect! For example to tell the chef, in the late afternoon, that you will be bringing four extra people in for dinner. At midnight. Or that the weather looks crap so there'll be 10 people for lunch (when the chef had hoped to grab a couple of hours snowboarding). The chef can't drive people down to town to buy a new ski jacket, wait for them then bring them back, if he's cooking the dinner. And the gap kids don't expect to be working for as long as it takes to clean a luxury chalet.
Not many resorts have the infrastructure to support that kind of place - e.g. the man who keeps the pool sparkling, or the masseuses who can come in when two clients want a massage at the same time, the store where you can buy fresh lobster for your demanding clients. Those are exceptionally expensive places to have real estate. Just the opportunity cost of the capital tied up in a luxury chalet in Val D'Isere would be greater than the entire cost of a chalet in somewhere like La Rosiere (where we had several lovely chalet holidays with Ski Olympic and all made our own beds one time because the chalet host had broken her wrist).
The staff apartment my son shared with a chalet host in one place in Meribel (a private chalet owned by a Parisian banker, not one where punters could buy a week) was twice the size of my apartment and far more luxuriously equipped and furnished. No sign of anything from Ikea!
If you pay £400 a week each, for a couple in a double room, you are paying £114 a night for dinner, bed and breakfast for two. That's really not a lot compared to normal prices in very ordinary hotels in the UK. Certainly some chalet operators provide a terrific level of quality and service for that sort of money - largely because they work their socks off from early morning till after midnight 7 days a week during their busy periods. But they are not going to be providing "fine dining" for that sort of money.
It is mind-blowing "how the other half ski". A different world from mine, where I would arrive with a couple of frozen meals and the basic ingredients to make several more. Our first self-catering holiday, in Austria, we took not only a pressure-cooker but skis that we'd hired from a shop in Ayr, at half the price the Austrians wanted, wrapped in old candlewick bedspreads because it cost extra to hire the ski bags. My 11 year old son almost died of embarrassment in Innsbruck airport. 
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| pam w wrote: |
| it does if you are going to provide the kind of service rich people expect! |
Oh absolutely, but as said, that's for some true luxury chalets, the kind way beyond the quality Insiders seems to be talking about, where money isn't much of an object. You're not going to get fine dining at <£400 each, but you can get:
| Quote: |
Absolutely fantastically well cooked food actually created by a trained chef - ya know, not the bog standard attempts at cooking by an 18 y/o or someone who's only exp was cooking their own dinner
Personal service from people that work for themselves, who run their own company and who genuinely want to give you a good holiday - not the impersonal service you get from large Tour Ops
The minibus for slope transfers was actually outside the chalet all the time just waiting for you to get in it, not having to wait while the host nips off to get the van and comes back half hour + later
cooked breakfast, with multiple choices daily (not just 1 option, normally overcooked egg) |
For that you don't lead loads and loads of staff or to be paying huge amounts of money. You might struggle to get it from a typical tour operator or for really bargain-basement money, but you can get it for a lot less than £600pp.
Fascinating to hear "how the other half ski" though. I wish I could afford holidays like that. Somehow I ended up getting Powder Byrne's email newsletter, and it does look amazing until you see prices well into 4 figures each, and that's not for the level of excess you're talking about. I think even if I were that rich there's an element of waste I just wouldn't like, a lack of value for money, which is somehow ingrained in me as being bad. Would be fun to test that though...
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| Montana wrote: |
| The best chalet food we've ever had (and we've had LOTS) was at the chalet of an erstwhile Snowhead (Chalet Vallons, in Le Seignus - tiny resort in southern Alps with a big ski area) - that was also the lowest price we've ever paid - not a last minute deal either. The food was simple but very well-cooked; roast chicken, lamb, pork fillet, with - again - excellent veg and potatoes, followed by fabulous puddings. The owners were English with their own chalet and it was their livelihood. The following year we went to another owner-run chalet with pretentious food - everything was in a jus, or draped in something - I swear some other unrecognisable item was 'anointed' in something else. The point is, you can't always tell and I have had more-than-decent food in a TO chalet run by 18/19 year olds, who loved cooking. |
This exactly what my wife and I are considering in a year or so when I retire, chalet/apartment for us and max 4 guests, with my wife (uber-enthusiastic foodie) doing half board at a sensible price......
It's what we would like, so feel it would work!
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I think even if I were that rich there's an element of waste I just wouldn't like, a lack of value for money, which is somehow ingrained in me as being bad.
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I entirely agree. I tend to take packed lunches when I drive down to the Alps - couple of hard-boiled eggs, a cheese sandwich, a Kit Kat. I could perfectly well afford to buy lunch but just don't, much of the time. Today I bought lunch out on the mountain, because I was with friends and a fair way from base, and this evening I dined with my French friends/neighbours in our local restaurant. They invited me, and insisted on paying - it was delicious (I had duck breast), we had a lovely evening, a "génepi du patron", the resto was pretty well full, several children, including my friends' grandchildren, very relaxed, not expensive. I wouldn't enjoy a Michelin-starred place any more. Made my brain ache a bit though, French all evening!
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| Quote: |
| Made my brain ache a bit though, French all evening! |
Should've had another genepi then 
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sarah, yeah, the genepi definitely helped!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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pam w,
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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That's just a well reviewed hotel that i found in a very short search. Not out of the ordinary at all
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You know it makes sense.
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sugardaddy, people expect a flight and transfer for that too, very often. Personally I would always choose a catered chalet over a hotel unless the food was a lot better in the latter. I prefer the informal atmosphere and I find the "extras" in a hotel mount up - every cup of tea, coffee or glass of wine at bar prices.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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pam w, of course (70 per night is 490 + 100 for the transfers). I was trying to show the OP what you can get for (less than) the sum he mentioned - quite easily and why people paying 600 quid for 7 nights HB+transfers might be having higher expectations.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Anyone think £600 for accom pass hire flights transfers and food is a reasonable expectation? I've been set that as an ill in budget for next year!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I am confused. Are we saying £600 is cheap as chips, or its loads?
Seems cheap unless everything else is on top.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Levi215, that's a challenge! and I suppose they want ski in/out, guaranteed snow, a hot tub and cheap beer?
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| pam w wrote: |
| Levi215, that's a challenge! and I suppose they want ski in/out, guaranteed snow, a hot tub and cheap beer? |
At half term.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| pam w wrote: |
| Levi215, that's a challenge! and I suppose they want ski in/out, guaranteed snow, a hot tub and cheap beer? |
Austria it is then
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To be fair musher I do love Austria anyway so plays into my hands
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I think for most people a holiday is simply a break - being able to relax with someone else doing the chores.
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I'm odd - I actually prefer cooking and going self-catering as for me it is far more relaxing having what I (we) want when we want it. May be different for the 2 of us, but with family much prefer to do our own thing.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Boris wrote: |
I'm odd - I actually prefer cooking and going self-catering as for me it is far more relaxing having what I (we) want when we want it. May be different for the 2 of us, but with family much prefer to do our own thing. |
I like self catering better too. Always have on summer holidays too.
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Boris, swiftoid, That makes 3 of us!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I've just been on a self-catering holiday. I was very lucky to be sharing with people who are domestic gods and goddesses, which I definitely am not (I keep sweaters in my stove and employ a cleaner) and Austria is cheap enough for us to have eaten out most nights. Without those ingredients I would always reject self-catering, I'm a lazy person who does not enjoy shopping, cooking and cleaning, especially not when on holiday. My first choice would always be a family-run hotel/pension with delicious home-cooked food, clean, comfortable ensuite rooms and a friendly ambience. These are the places that trade on their reputation and rely on repeat business, often cheaper than the TO catered chalet too. I'm not bothered about luxury as such and would never pay extra for things I consider unimportant (ski in/out, hot tub, expensive wine, etc.).
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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A lot depends where you fly from in the uk, the farther north the higher the surcharge, so from where I am in the uk £600 total price gets leaves you with much less left over after the flights than if you fly from London. I have tried to price up DIY ski holidays, but from the north of Scotland it is always much dearer than the TO prices.
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dode,
It may depend on when you go and how many you are going with. Certainly I have found from Scotland central belt with a family at school holiday time I am significantly cheaper DIYing, going solo cheaper with a tour operator.
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You know it makes sense.
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Levi215, please let us know when you find a holiday for £600 all in, including flights, transfers, lift pass, ski in/out accommodation and food. Your best bet is probably squashing maximum bodies into a car and driving to a French "rabbit hutch" apartment with bunk beds in the hall and two sofa beds in one of the lesser-known resorts where you can get good "accommodation and lift pass" deals.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| pam w wrote: |
| Levi215, please let us know when you find a holiday for £600 all in, including flights, transfers, lift pass, ski in/out accommodation and food. Your best bet is probably squashing maximum bodies into a car and driving to a French "rabbit hutch" apartment with bunk beds in the hall and two sofa beds in one of the lesser-known resorts where you can get good "accommodation and lift pass" deals. |
It's not going to happen is it, also no one is willing to have rubbish accom. I think it's unrealistic, the main driver is that the overall cost for people previously has been that (banko) with free accom hence expectations have been set that you get that everywhere. I'm trying to get people to try new places which is a challenge on that budget 
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Poster: A snowHead
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pam w, wrote
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please let us know when you find a holiday for £600 all in, including flights, transfers, lift pass, ski in/out accommodation and food
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that's not what the OP offered, INSIDERS wrote
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around the £600pp mark (for nice very comfy chalet, w/ hot tub, catered with transfers, book your own flights)... but i'm still curious what others think?
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So deffo without flights, and the way I read it, no skipass either. 500 pounds for accom and meals is not cheap at all, for me.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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sugardaddy, it was Levi215 whose mates are looking for all that plus flights, transfers and a lift pass for £600. He should dump his mates and go on an all-inclusive Action Outdoors holiday for not too much more, and with far better skiing than Bansko.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Tbh I'm really sodding bored of 'luxury' chalets. I don't want uber luxe bed linen because I'm so knackered after skiing and après I'd sleep in a builders sack. Neither do I want a hot tub (chalets only - don't trust them) if I want Michelin-like food I can go out for dinner any day of the week back home.
I want you to feed me, whack a cake on the table at 4, hot and cold running water and keep me warm
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
Tbh I'm really sodding bored of 'luxury' chalets
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I'm not bored with luxury chalets because I've never stayed in one. But I'd not want to either - it's not what it's about, for me.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Luxury hotels however are a different matter
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FWIW in case anyone's interested - this is the breakdown of this year's trip for 2-adults, 3-kids. No lessons and there is probably another £100 to add on for food as we took a lot with us! Adults had own skis. Yes - that is a lot of fuel - but Disco's are not know for fuel economy. Tunnel was free due to points
2013 Xmas Costs
Premier Inn 58
Beefeater Meal 97.42
Breakfast 24.34
Fuel 74.82
Food Shop 69.46
Fuel 70.41
Food 11.44
Fuel (top Up) 36.48
Les Charmilles 184.09
food 25.65
Sherpa 6.8
Lunch out 50.98
Wifi 25.65
Pizzas last night 106.75
Burger King at Tunnel 33.28
Fuel 83.61
Sledging 25.6
Fuel 99.37
Ski Hire 175.55
Lift passes 744.72
Apt 231.54
Apt 671.83
Eurotunnel 0
Tolls 143.76
Total £3062.68
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But the reason I go on a ski holiday is to go skiing. It is the quality of the skiing that counts. You may be in a luxury chalet of the type reviewed by the Sunday times and I may be in a bunk house at a tenth of the price but we are skiing on the same pistes with our best friends and enjoying ourselves. Sadly I have never understood why we should want to have servants putting tooth paste on our tooth brushes etc.
To answer Insiders, question
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If high quality was genuinely guaranteed would you be happy to pay more for it? and if so, why aren't more people opting for quality?
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Is we don't actually care. It is not important.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Paid £1050 for hotel + flight and £240 for lift pass.
I think it was great value for what we received.
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So, big shock, different people find different things important on holiday
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FAQ
an example of unrealistic expectations? 