 Poster: A snowHead
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This post is prompted partly by the current discussions of who is allowed to teach where, and partly because my son failed BASI 2 last summer and we are wondering whether there is much point in him retaking it if his parents (ie, me!) are insisting that he goes to UNI before doing any more ski seasons. How do people get their 3's - how do they finance it, how long does it take, how much teaching work do they realistically get with the 2 on the way?
The jump from 2 to 3 is big, so training is obviously needed as well as attending the courses for the various modules. 200 hours teaching is also needed.
Firstly, where in Europe can you legally work with a level 2 to get those hours, and how realistic is it to think that you can spend one or 2 winters in the Alps getting those hours and actually earning enough to be able to support yourself whilst doing it?
Secondly, courses and training cost money, but if you have a job to be able to pay for courses, you only have limited holiday allowance to be able to go and do the courses in?
Do people work hard all summer and save like mad so that they have enough to go and spend most of the winter training and taking courses without working, or is lots of it young people being bankrolled by parents (cos i'm not up for that one!)?
People's thoughts would be appreciated, but please don't let this post descend into another debate about the Eurotest and working in France, because that's not what it's about!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| karin wrote: |
| ...........my son failed BASI 2 last summer and we are wondering whether there is much point in him retaking it if his parents (ie, me!) are insisting that he goes to UNI before doing any more ski seasons. How do people get their 3's - how do they finance it, how long does it take, ............... |
Personally I think it's hard to be as definitive or prescriptive as your questions beckon.
I think that anyone bitten by the bug will find "a way" to make it happen.
But if your son has been working seasons in resort towards his BASI L2, then perhaps He may have a lot of the answers to your question, No?
I wish I could be of more help. I'm sure the more experienced will pipe up shortly, I'm very interested to see what they say.
Good luck.
:typo
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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How much training is he doing in the UK? It's very feasible to get to BASI2 level with UK-based training and then a week or so on snow before the assessment. He should be training on this at least twice a week, and ideally shadowing too. No point in wasting money on ski seasons at this level if his skiing isn't up to it.
BASI 2 to 3 is a different ballgame, and he needs to be skiing seasons and in a controlled program to get his skiing up to that level: how are his racing skills? In the summer get him to join the local club and bash gates a couple of times a week.
Costs? Bank of mum and dad. Or work his socks off when not skiing. Does he swim? Swimming teaching is surprisingly lucrative and can compliment ski instruction.
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Ah, I think I've misled you a little, the question wasn't specifically about my son, because I think he's mostly decided not to retake, but it was a genuine question to ask how people have done it.
However, he has done 2 winters of part time teaching on dry slopes in the UK and failed on his skiing (short and long turns there about 50% of the time, but not consistent enough), not the teaching. Having failed he is now doing a season as a chalet host, and I suspect not working much on the skiing technically!
I wonder how many youngsters think 'Oh, I'll get my Basi 2 and then go and teach for a season in my gap year' without realising that it really isn't as simple as all that?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I'm about as far from the "Gap Year kid" model as you could find.
I did my BASI 1 while working full-time in a professional job, then did the teaching hours on evenings and weekends at the local dry-slope.
Moved to France, started a business, did a few seasons, then sat my level 2.
Currently at a point where I MIGHT (if I pass everything....) finish the level 3/4 this winter. I've done a lot of training to get to the level, including failing the technical exam once already. This is both training on my own and hooking up with BASI trainers for some formal (i.e. paid-for!) training.
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I think it's very dependent on experience, ski level, personal circumstances, etc. I don't think there is one way to go about it. Probably not a helpful answer, but I think a realistic one. A common attribute no matter what route one takes is the level of commitment which is necessary.
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karin, to answer some points you make in the OP, 200 hours is the minimum requirement between 2 and 3. Most people would benefit from much more than this (ie getting lots of experience actually doing the job).
If people did this then their skiing would also develop, as most ski schools tend to organise staff training and if not there are normally people around motivated to get out and ski.
When i came through the system this is what everyone was doing, since none of the 2 to 3 gap courses or training courses existed.
In my opinion (and it is shared by others), the reason most people struggle at 3 is that they simply lack experience in skiing (and by that i mean skiing everything, on piste, off piste, bumps etc etc, and also general experience of all things ski-related), and teaching too.
Or to put it another way, L2 is passable by good recreational skiers who have done a few weeks here and a few weeks there, 3 is only passable by people who actually have a strong depth of skiing experience. How you get this is another matter - i spent my 3 first winters teaching in Scotland, sharing some legendarily downmarket accommodation, not earning very much, but having a fantastic time and gaining lots of experience...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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To partly answer one of your questions I'm pretty sure you can work in Austria with a BASI level 2 without any issue, I know people that do and I've worked based on a canadian level 1. What's his motivation to get a L3? More work opportunities, more money (though doubt it makes much difference) , to improve his own skiing?
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My stepson has his level 2 and is working his first ski job as an instructor in Japan this season. He is getting shed loads of teaching experience, and seems to be going down well with the clients and management of the ski school he is working for (which is English speaking). I kind of knew he would do well despite his youth (18 ), as he is very personable and is actually enjoying teaching. Earlier on in the season they were flat out and he didn't have a day off for about a month. Hats off to him for sticking with it.
He is also finding time, now that they are over the peak of their season (Aussie school Christmas/summer hols), to get out himself and have some fun, and do an avalanche awareness course. His ski school also does morning training sessions for the staff before 9am to improve their own technical skills. I think he really landed on his feet.
He says he wants to do his level 3, but after perhaps another season in North America as he thinks he needs the experience.
So...it is possible to work with level 2, but you probably have to look beyond Europe.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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You can certainly work a season in Austria with BASI 2 (though the Anwärter would make it a bit easier) and earn enough to support yourself, but don't expect to come away with much saved in the bank...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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To be honest, I'm not entirely sure what his motivations are at the moment, he went off to run a chalet in Alpe d'Huez in early December, and, being a lad, communication has been fairly minimal since then! His trials and tribulations early in the season are documented elsewhere on here. His original plan had been to get his 2 and spend a winter in Canada, but there are limited gap year type visas each year, you have to be 18 when you apply, and as his birthday is May they ran out before he was old enough to apply for one.
When he did the 2 he was really keen on being a ski instructor as a career, and despite us pointing out how hard it was to make a living out of it, he kept pointing out that the BASI trainers who had run his courses had done it, so why couldn't he? But then he failed the 2 and I'm not sure he's going to bother to resit it.
Thanks for the comments, people.
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You can swap Basi 1 for the German and Swiss L1 which doesn't have the restrictions Basi 1 has so you could work and get experience from an early stage. You wouldn't earn enough to support yourself but it is possible and you could work while doing another job full time.
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You know it makes sense.
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lynseyf,Sorry Lyns but, What do you mean by "swap" ?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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lynseyf, are you sure? The last I read (a while back admittedly) you could swap BASI 2 for the (Austrian) Anwärter, but you have to sit the theory paper (in German). Is it different in Germany and Switzerland?
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Poster: A snowHead
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| karin wrote: |
But then he failed the 2 and I'm not sure he's going to bother to resit it.
Thanks for the comments, people. |
I suspect this is your answer - if he's going to be a ski instructor he'll need a bit more resilience than giving up for a (fairly minor) knockback at L2. My understanding is that lots of fairly decent skiers fail L2 because they haven't spent long enough training in the specifics. Possibly also an issue in that the level of L1 is more or less rock up and pass it (for a skier with a reasonable amount under their belt).
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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By using the "C" word a lot....
Committment
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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fatbob, I know he'd need to do an awful lot of work on his skiing to get 3. I want him to go to UNI, so I'm not sure I'm prepared to bankroll the 2 resit when I don't want him to then go and blow his education by trying to be a ski instructor and then not having a degree to fall back on in the increasing challenging conventional job market!
And yes, Level 1 does basically just seem to be rock up, and as a friend of mine says, 'A Basi 1 couldn't teach their way out of a paper bag'.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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morningglory, funny enough I was working on our course schedule this morning and should have an email out in the next couple days... Looking like May - July at Mount Hemel...
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franzClammer, clarky999, an Italian guy I did my basi 1 with has done this and is doing his 35hrs towards L2 in the alps now with Interski. "Swap" means apply to get equivalence in that system. The German ski qualification is with the DSV so different to the Austrian, I did some training with this years intake of new instructors at Garmisch and after that they were able to teach but still not officially an instructor although they had a contract with the ski school, I guess the best title would be trainee instructor. From my experiences the lowest level in the German system seemed to cover the same as basi L1, possibly slightly more but still with the emphasis on teaching beginners up to parallel.
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lynseyf, Danke
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This is purely a personal point of view, but I've never understood going through the BASI system unless you want to teach in the UK.
Surely it makes more sense to go through the 'system' of the Country you wish to teach in?
I know there are Instructors that work all year round and follow the snow so it's not always possible...but surely it makes sense if you want to work in Austria to do the Austrian system, France the French etc,etc....plus learn some of the language....which imho is just as important to the 'system' itself if you want to work decent hours and wish to fit in.
Each countries system is slightly different, and ski schools want you to demonstrate and understand their countries philosophy, and way of skiing and teaching...it's not just a case of 'crossing over'...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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spud, I have done the training for the German system but unsurprisingly it was all in German, while I could understand enough to get the general idea I feel I got more from my basi course, the German one was really good at giving me loads of drills but I didn't get as much feedback on my own skiing and couldn't follow all the technical talks. I have seen Austrian courses advertised in English but they seemed to be aimed at gap year kids who would go out and train then work for the season, not for someone who wants to do it in addition to a job that pays the bills. There were 2 other people on my course who lived in Germany and one Italian guy who said it was difficult to get started as a ski instructor in Italy so I think he planned to do the training with Basi then use that to get a job. If you can speak the Language perfectly then I guess it might make sense to do the course in the country you will most probably teach in but you would need a decent standard. I found it quite mentally tiring doing my basi 1 and I@m not sure my concentration would have been up to doing that in another language as well
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lynseyf, Yes... I understand how hard it must be if you can't speak the language...but how do people think they are going to work in Europe if they can't speak another language ie French, German, Italian, Spanish, Russian, Dutch etc?
You may get a few hours teaching Brits on busy holiday periods, but having enough work to keep you going throughout the season is a real struggle.
I know a few people who have gone through the Austrian system and they all went to language classes in the evenings as well.
I'm all for GAP year courses at any age...as you get the hours to not only ski, but learn how to teach as well, which is most important.
I've seen a fair few people rock up for a five day course and 2 day exam and fail miserably as they had no experience in how to teach or understanding...even though their skiing ability was ok.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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spud, I've been in Germany for 2 years and can have simple conversations and understand a lot more than I can speak but German is a hard language to master! Most people I know living here said it took them about 2 years before they were comfortable speaking German, people who did intense language courses, lessons 5 days a week for 3-4 months improved quite quickly but they are still far from fluent. In my experience night classes aren't enough to get fluent in a few months either, I probably could give a beginner lesson in German, and did so when I was training with the ski school but I wouldn't really be happy doing that as I couldn't explain everything i could in English.
I would imagine most people don't imagine being able to support themselves as a ski instructor for a long time if ever so are quite happy getting some teaching while working another job and learning the language so surely it is better to get the best training in a language you can understand? Gap courses sound great but as an independent adult what are you supposed to come Easter if you can't go back and live with mum and dad, I'm not sure how easy it would be to pick up summer work in some of the ski villages if you weren't local and it would be a massive leap of faith to give up a job to go and do a gap course.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
I've never understood going through the BASI system unless you want to teach in the UK
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judging from discussion here a lot of people do it as a structured way of improving their own skiing, identifying gaps in their skills, etc. Which seems to be a perfectly rational approach. Most seem to be under no illusion that they will "earn a living" as ski instructors in the longer term. Some younger ones probably do it to enhance their CV.
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People whose goal is to be able to sustain a life in the mountains would be much better advised to get some high quality cooking and hospitality management skills.
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You know it makes sense.
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| lynseyf wrote: |
| spud, I've been in Germany for 2 years and can have simple conversations and understand a lot more than I can speak but German is a hard language to master! |
2 years, WTF! You must be speaking too much English. It took me about 6 months to get proficient enough in German to work 24/7, after a couple of years I was giving Goethe language tips. Yes the grammar is complex for the Inselaffen but the natives don't necessarily speak that well either.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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spud, I think my French is pretty good but I'm a long way from being confident I could just turn up to ENSA and pass a course using it.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| rjs wrote: |
| spud, I think my French is pretty good but I'm a long way from being confident I could just turn up to ENSA and pass a course using it. |
Which sort of reinforces my point... if people can't pass an exam for a foreign affiliation, how do they expect to turn up to a foreign snow school with their Basi equivalent and teach what they have learnt to foreign students in English? Or do people think they are going to be teaching British punters all day long?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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spud, they will ｐロバｂｌｙべ手亜陳ｇＢｒｉts, Dutch, Scandies, Russians, Chinese, I could go on.
Ｔｈｅ ｇｒｅａｔ ｍａｊｏｒｉｔｙ ｏｆ ｗｈｉｃｈ ｗｉｌｌ ｏｐｔ ｆｏｒ ａｎ Ｅｎｇｌｉｓｈ ｓｐｅａｋｉｎｇ ｌｅｓｓｏｎ ｏｖｅｒ ａ Ｆｒｅｎｃｈ， Ｉｔａｌｉａｎ ｏｒ Ｇｅｒｍａｎ．
I write as the father of two working ski instructors who have never been short of work due to lack of language skills
Wow this japanese language keyboard does some wierd stuff!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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davidof,  yes too much English, although in my defense everyone in Munich speaks English, even when I speak German. I was in a bar last week " ein Helles bitte", "three twenty" replied the barman, you have to laugh but it doesn't help you learn.
rungsp, exactly I've been working with Americans, Brazilians, Chinese, Aussies, Canadians, Danes, Indians, Spaniards and Brits and that's only in a few lessons at one ski school.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| davidof wrote: |
| lynseyf wrote: |
| spud, I've been in Germany for 2 years and can have simple conversations and understand a lot more than I can speak but German is a hard language to master! |
2 years, WTF! You must be speaking too much English. It took me about 6 months to get proficient enough in German to work 24/7, after a couple of years I was giving Goethe language tips. Yes the grammar is complex for the Inselaffen but the natives don't necessarily speak that well either. |
Doesn't take that long to be able to work in the language, but to become properly fluent I reckon will take me at least another few years (been here full-time around 18 months).
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| pam w wrote: |
| People whose goal is to be able to sustain a life in the mountains would be much better advised to get some high quality cooking and hospitality management skills. |
Or looking at what job roles are offered in English in cities in the mountains - LOADS of scientific and engineering jobs around here (working in English).
To the OP, going to uni to get a random degree as a backup to fall back on if need be is pretty pointless, as it'll probably be the wrong one. Better to take a couple of years to work out where/what your son wants to go/do, then do a degree that'll actually help reach those goals rather than waste 3 years.
I know that from experience  Had a great time at uni and kayaked in some really cool places, but my (Geography) degree is basically useless here. If I'd done something like engineering or marketing I'd be laughing at the choice of well-paid jobs. Only door my degree has opened is entry into a distance learning marketing post grad.
Plus I believe if your son spends 3 years living away from you/supporting himself, he'll get a LOT more grant (not loan) money for uni.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Thu 6-03-14 1:04; edited 1 time in total
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
Or looking at what job roles are offered in English in cities in the mountains - LOADS of scientific and engineering jobs
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Absolutely - I was just thinking about someone who had no relevant qualifications to offer at the moment.
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I'm not sure I'm prepared to bankroll the 2 resit
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I wouldn't. But I think clarky999 is dead right - no point bankrolling him to go, unmotivated, to Uni and get any old degree, either. My younger son took YEARS AND YEARS to decide what he wanted to do - years when, amongst other things, he got a croupiers licence and worked in casinos, did quite a lot of travelling, became an expert sushi chef and acquired enough wider cooking experience that he can now get paid €1500 a week cooking for Russians in fancy chalets in Courchevel, as a break from doing his Ph D in Robotics. But his father and I didn't bankroll any of that, though we helped him with accommodation costs (as we had his brother and sister) when he went to Uni. I would let your son do whatever he wants to do until he decides where he wants life to take him. But don't pay for it.
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| spud wrote: |
| rjs wrote: |
| spud, I think my French is pretty good but I'm a long way from being confident I could just turn up to ENSA and pass a course using it. |
Which sort of reinforces my point... |
Not really, you asked why someone would want to do a course in their native language rather than in the language of the country they plan to work in. I'm suggesting a reason - lack of confidence.
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karin's orignial post and many of the replies chime with me. Happy to offer my own experiences of working through the BASI system whilst holding down a full-time job in London.
L1/L2 not a problem by taking a short sabbatical. That led to the question of how far I could go along the L3 route whilst restricted to using weekends and taking leave to get snowtime and courses done. This winter I found out the answer: everything except the Teach and Tech. The Teach was kinda my 'litmus test'. Having given it a shot, what I found was that (in my case) without having gone fully through the process of getting up to L3 standard as a skier, it underminded the ability to analyse and develop skiers in your peer group. But reassuringly close. I would imagine some people may be able to get it without doing seasons, if they are able to commit time regularly, eg teaching in local fridges / dry slopes.
As for the Tech: no way really. Happy to be making steady progress, but without season-sized chunks of snow time, it's a constant process of going to and fro within the practice phase of everything, rather than really getting anything nailed. Performing at the levels required with the ease and flow that is needed for L3 remains fleeting and occasional.
Coming back to the Teach: everyone who was doing seasons passed; everyone who wasn't, didn't. Hopefully not long now before I'm in the former camp!
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FAQ
sometime in the future. Trying to come up with alternative ways to describe what someone needs to do produce the end result really stretches my own abilities in skiing and teaching.