 Poster: A snowHead
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Hi all,
Myself and the Oh are looking at really trying to improve our off piste skills next week in Gressoney (Monterosa area).
They are due to have approx 50-60cm snow between tonight and Sunday when we arrive, so should be perfect conditions
We're no experts but are just getting the hang of skiing off piste without having to think too much about it, if you know what I mean....a couple of years ago, and every foray off to the side was accompanied by so much in our heads about what techniques we 'should' be employing......now we seem a lot more relaxed and are just skiing for want of a better phrase, and its coming on nicely.
So this coming week with the area and conditions looks like a great opportunity for us to practice, mainly we will look to do routes close to the piste or very well known marked routes.
Question is, what avy kit should we carry, I'm thinking of hiring transceivers each from the ski hire shop and and a fold up shovel, is that sufficient?
Or am I going over the top considering we won't exactly be hitting the complete backcountry?
Would appreciate any advice - thanks, Neil.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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do you know how to use a transceiver? not much point hiring one if not
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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neilkav, It's not just having the kit but also knowing how to correctly use it. How about getting a lesson with a school who'll supply the gear? I've got into off piste recently and they really emphasized the safety element. Also to me off piste is exactly what it says on the tin weather it's a meter or 100m.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Minimum = brain, edumacation
Kit really only helps once you've got the second.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Ok thanks point(s) taken, we'll look to get some tuition, and whilst I have an understanding of how transceivers work, it would of course be better to be shown through a series of lessons......good points.
fatbob, thanks for the ever so slightly condescending reply, cheers, last time I looked my brain seemed intact, although I would of course like more education.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Arno wrote: |
| do you know how to use a transceiver? not much point hiring one if not |
Not true. It helps reduce the costs to your relatives of retrieving your body.
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The biggest thing is not just to have the kit or even how to use it but to know how to make sensible decisions on when not to ski on any given slope. The kit is there for the worst case situation. You always carry it because there is no guarantee that your decisions will always be good and you don't know the situation others around you will put you in.
There's lots of pretty much completely safe off-piste though and you might well be skiing in areas that are safe. But you do need to know how to tell.
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neilkav, Transceiver, shovel & probe are a legal requirement now in some (possibly now all?) parts of that ski area if off piste.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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no one mentioned the go-pro and 120mm skis yet 
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meh, AndAnotherThing.., cheers guys will ensure we get some guiding/lessons and defo have the kit advised, thanks.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Monterosa guides will show you how .... but it will cost. (Ski school might well run intro to OP courses). No way round that expense really unless you have competent friends who can help you with the basics.
Given the forecast, there will be plenty of opportunities to practice edge of piste skiing - always with some risk of course but we all accept that.
I don't know what the charge for a weeks transceiver hire, but it might be worth getting your own gear if you are planning on this becoming a regular activity.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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neilkav, please take all these comments seriously and in the spirit they are meant , see if there is any avalanche awareness tasters available and get some real understanding of what skiing off piste really entails and youll be amazed by all the factors that must be taken into account before even thinking about venturing off piste , the kit wont help you one iota if you dont know how to use it , and that doesn't mean having an understanding of how a transiever works , it means things as basic as how to use the shovel !!!!!
give it some thought and think about your other half
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You know it makes sense.
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Dabber, fxf, guys, thanks a lot, I promise I am definitely taking it seriously, its that time for us to try and think about moving onto the next stage from 'just on the side of the piste', and from all of the comments, the ONLY way for us to do tat sensibly is to get some professional help, which is what we will do.
I have just emailed monterosaguides.com and asked for some prices, hopefully get something organised. If we can't then we will stay on piste, I totally agree that safety is paramount, and due to our inexperience, we need to get some one to one help.
To be honest those were my thoughts originally, we were always going to ask about lessons/ guiding, I just wanted to ask the question about the kit, as Ive never used it before, now realise my original post was a little naive.
Thanks to everyone for the great advice, here's looking forward to some informative lessons, and a new outlook on OP, cheers
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Haggis_Trap, quote]
no one mentioned the go-pro and 120mm skis yet
[/quote]
How could you forget the helmet?!?!?! 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Seriously, there is no substitute for instruction - in off-piste technique as well as survival.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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neilkav,
My thoughts as a skier ( and possibly a surgeon)
You cannot remove risk but you can learn to assess it better. In your position I would ski as many days with a guide that you can afford. They will teach you how to read conditions and as you are, perhaps, inexperienced provide a backstop of sage- like advice. I have skied with guides for years and am still learning. They are expensive, but what price a life?
On the basis that you cannot ( nor can your guide ) reduce the risk to zero make yourself as robust to disaster as possible. That means buying,or hiring, the kit ( minimum shovel, probe and transceiver) . Get your guide to teach you how to use it correctly or if you have time do a course before hand. You are better having a transceiver on and not knowing how to use it that not having one at all.
Understanding the risk assessment and the mountains is a life long journey. Don't let anyone put you off by saying you need to be an expert before you go off piste. It's more important to start the journey in the correct frame of mind: your post clearly indicates that you have that.
I've been skiing 35 years, and still, my best days are with a guide.
I come from a professional background ( of nearly 30 years) where I cannot always predict an unexpected event.
The same rules apply: predict the potential catastrophies and put in measues in advance to help you extract yourself from those difficult situations. For skiing pack, shovel, probe, transceiver, ABS etc. For surgery unexpected findings, bleeding, something breaks, someone drops the bit of kit on the floor, the X-ray machine breaks etc. Understand that bad days will happen. The more you immerse yourself in it the better you will get. Dont forget that everyone has a day 1. Progressively learn to assess the risk and whilst you are learning get professional backup from an expert, you need a wingman.
Don't hesitate to go off piste, if your technique allows. The mistake is not to START learning. Make yourself more robust in case a disaster happens. Get the kit and learn to use it.
In summary hire the kit and a guide.
50cm of powder: hedonism
Jonathan Bell
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Jonathan Bell wrote: |
neilkav,
My thoughts as a skier ( and possibly a surgeon)
You cannot remove risk but you can learn to assess it better. In your position I would ski as many days with a guide that you can afford. They will teach you how to read conditions and as you are, perhaps, inexperienced provide a backstop of sage- like advice. I have skied with guides for years and am still learning. They are expensive, but what price a life?
On the basis that you cannot ( nor can your guide ) reduce the risk to zero make yourself as robust to disaster as possible. That means buying,or hiring, the kit ( minimum shovel, probe and transceiver) . Get your guide to teach you how to use it correctly or if you have time do a course before hand. You are better having a transceiver on and not knowing how to use it that not having one at all.
Understanding the risk assessment and the mountains is a life long journey. Don't let anyone put you off by saying you need to be an expert before you go off piste. It's more important to start the journey in the correct frame of mind: your post clearly indicates that you have that.
I've been skiing 35 years, and still, my best days are with a guide.
I come from a professional background ( of nearly 30 years) where I cannot always predict an unexpected event.
The same rules apply: predict the potential catastrophies and put in measues in advance to help you extract yourself from those difficult situations. For skiing pack, shovel, probe, transceiver, ABS etc. For surgery unexpected findings, bleeding, something breaks, someone drops the bit of kit on the floor, the X-ray machine breaks etc. Understand that bad days will happen. The more you immerse yourself in it the better you will get. Dont forget that everyone has a day 1. Progressively learn to assess the risk and whilst you are learning get professional backup from an expert, you need a wingman.
Don't hesitate to go off piste, if your technique allows. The mistake is not to START learning. Make yourself more robust in case a disaster happens. Get the kit and learn to use it.
In summary hire the kit and a guide.
50cm of powder: hedonism
Jonathan Bell |
Best post I have read here ever. Please can Mods make this a sticky? Big Big respect to Mr Bell.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Popcorn 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I have been watching Darren Turners Ski School app and made sure I wore my carving underpants last time I went off piste when I was out in February.
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| emwmarine wrote: |
| I have been watching Darren Turners Ski School app and made sure I wore my carving underpants last time I went off piste when I was out in February. |
They'll be the ones that self-seal around the legs to keep the solids in 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| neilkav wrote: |
fatbob, thanks for the ever so slightly condescending reply, cheers, last time I looked my brain seemed intact, although I would of course like more education. |
Sorry, wasn't intended to be condescending though I can see that it is. I'm serious about the education pieace though - if you've got a couple of feet of fresh poorly bonded to a base then reading terrain is probably more important than having beep/spade/probe (which you should both have anyway)
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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mishmash, "You are better having a transceiver on and not knowing how to use it that not having one at all."
This is the problem with the whole "off piste " revolution , people buy/rent/the kit and then somehow perceive a level of safety that doesn't exist , as Arno said so succinctly , the only use for wearing a transceiver without knowing how to use it , is if the batteries last they'll find your poor lost corpse before the summer !!
I had the "pleasure"of doing a couple of real life drills with a group of guys on an off piste course last year, who had the latest gear , and really no idea how to use it , and spent >15min trying in vain to get to grips with the transiever , instead of being directed where and how to dig !!
What I'm objecting to is the premise that a little knowledge is better than none , when actually a little knowledge is likely to kill you more than no knowledge at all .
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Fri 28-02-14 22:19; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Jonathan Bell, fantastic advice thank you
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One of the most important bits of kit to have is a phone, they have saved a lot of lives.
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You know it makes sense.
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fatbob, hey no worries I'm just glad I've got some proper advice, really looking forward to progressing, thanks everyone !!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Having listened to a long and comprehensive lecture on avalanches, and then done a practical session finding buried transceivers, in a park, and gone through the theory of how to use a probe I found myself concluding that having a transceiver and being with someone who knew how to find me, and had the good fortune to find me quickly, was expert with a probe and a bloody good digger might improve my chances of surviving a burial from zero to very slight.
It's a bit like those exercises you do on sailing courses, picking up a "man overboard" on a nice afternoon with a force 4 wind and good visibility. Wouldn't be the same in a gale, in the dark (which is when the silly booger is going to fall overboard). And when it really is a man, not two fenders tried together with a nice convenient bit of rope enabling you to fish them out with a boathook.
It was a sobering morning. The focus really has to be on staying out of trouble.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Dabber wrote: |
mishmash, "You are better having a transceiver on and not knowing how to use it that not having one at all."
This is the problem with the whole "off piste " revolution , people buy/rent/the kit and then somehow perceive a level of safety that doesn't exist , as Arno said so succinctly , the only use for wearing a transceiver without knowing how to use it , is if the batteries last they'll find your poor lost corpse before the summer !!
I had the "pleasure"of doing a couple of real life drills with a group of guys on an off piste course last year, who had the latest gear , and really no idea how to use it , and spent >15min trying in vain to get to grips with the transiever , instead of being directed where and how to dig !!
What I'm objecting to is the premise that a little knowledge is better than none , when actually a little knowledge is likely to kill you more than no knowledge at all . |
Well.....
If you have one, I can find you.
If you have one I can lead you in a search.
The 2 aspects that all the drills I have ever done always fail to cover properly is 1) command/leadership 2) Digging skills/digging teamwork. 2 being the most important.
I understand your frustrations - but having skiers dropping in on top of me I find far far more scary !
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Lots of excellent advice here.
It is of course sensible to make sure you know how your kit works.
but i'm continually amazed by the practice of most Guides i've met: they all check the transceiver is working, but only one has ever checked we know how to use it to find a victim, know how to probe (and assemble the probe), and know how to dig.
To follow Jonathan Bell's excellent post, it is much like handing out Defibrillators without making sure the recipients can work them.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Honestly, the mere title of the thread is a concern, as is the opening post.
But at least neilkav, seems keen to heed the advice, same advice from everyone except fxf, who is clearly an exceptional skier.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I'm going to put a list of off piste courses in the offpiste section as a resource.
Any contributions welcome.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Folks spend thousands on off piste gear (airbags etc)
The one piece of kit that I bet neary all wouldbees & experienced do not carry is a simple cheap WHISTLE (attached to your Jacket) .. I have carried one for years.
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I think terrain selection is really important, learn a little about the risks of different terrain, slope angles, convex vs concave slopes, the terrain above you, warning signs to look out for from the snow pack etc. IMO this is more important than just going out and buying a tranceiver, shovel and probe, you want to do everything you can to never have to use your transceiver so spend at least as much time learning how not to use it as how to use it.
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stanton, Me too. Vital in case of other accidents too.
Terrain traps are probably the main risk when skiing just off piste, a small localised slide can bury you in a dip.
I still ski off piste a lot on my own and without gear, but only on local ground where I know there is extremely low risk such as the forests in certain areas. Even then I have investigated the snow pack. I also read about techniques, ask guides questions about their decisions, talk to the lift staff about conditions, train, use the avi parks etc. As said, start learning and never stop.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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lynseyf, +1
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| jbob wrote: |
I'm going to put a list of off piste courses in the offpiste section as a resource.
Any contributions welcome. |
I've put three course providers up. Welcome more suggestion especially if you have used them.
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FAQ
I self-educated on snow pack, conditions and which areas would be avalanche prone and kept to within sight of the piste. If I had to carry kit on those occasions I would never have started. I enjoyed that and have been further off piste in groups, but my next move is definitely a course to learn how to use the kit so I can be a responsible off piste-r!
It's all about balancing the risks...classes and kit for me next season
