 Poster: A snowHead
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Hi everyone,
I'm an intermediate skier (started very late and no seasons, but ski every year, mostly in the alps), and this year I got a Line Sick Day 95 for my piste and all mountain needs, and a Line Bacon specifically for deep snow and the off piste.
I tried out both skis in the off piste, and I really dig how the Bacons float and behave, I must say, so no complaints. My issue started when I took the bacons out for a day of maybe 60 off/40on-piste. The snow conditions were hardpack, heavy wet snow, and icy pistes. The Bacons do well on piste, I found, as long as you put some weight onto the 108mm waist.
The next day I decided to take it very easy, and switched back to the narrower Sick Days, riding only in piste. What I experienced was a first ever, but I kept over-edging (is there even such a thing), and feeling like the front of the ski was hooking at every turn. Basically, I was having problems making the skis slide/smear.
The Sick Day is a fantastic ski, and fits my style really well, so it was the transition from a fatter and more forward mounted to a narrower and more traditionally mounted ski that messed me up a but.
Does anyone have any advice or tips (besides "ski more" - i'm on to that one) on what to do to avoid hooking on narrower skis when you're switching back and forth? Any tips appreciated.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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dont turn ! .... I would suggest smearing and sliding require less "edging" ... so if you feel you are "over edging" .. dont ! 
Im sure someone qualified will come along and enquire about ski length and suggest edge control drills etc ....or maybe not
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Haha, don't turn is great. It doesn't prevent me from skiing, it's just quite annoying and totally new. Drills from some hardcore snowheads would be most welcome. In the end I guess it will be a good thing, because it will force me to think about edging and position more, but right now it feels like i'm re-learning how to ski again...
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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you say you had an "easy" day on the Sick days, but felt like you were over edging and getting hooked up. Too relaxed ?
Given the trad mount to forward mount ...Maybe you needed to drive the tips of your skis more, and get more in the game !!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Maybe, and my legs were totally jelly after 3 days of hard riding, but the problem felt like i i was over-driving the edges, not the other way around. The skis kept hooking and over-turning, which was taking me off balance...
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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I got a new pair of skis this season and found the first week I used them that unless I was really disciplined with them and very precise with technique that the tips felt very grabby. This was fine when I was focused and expecting it but caught me out a couple of times when I wasn't paying full attention, especially if it was one ski that grabbed more than the other. That suggested to me that I just needed to improve my technique a bit and thought that was fair enough. The second week I used them though this issue had completely disappeared. I'd had the skis fully serviced in between the two weeks so I am now wondering if the edges had not been set up quite right for me in the factory as I don't think my technique changed all that much from the end of the first week to the start of the second. I'm no expert on edge tuning, but I know some recommend detuning the tips, so this might be something to look into.
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That's possible. I hadn't thought of that actually, but the first time I rode the skis they had factory tuning and rode super smooth. The second time I had them serviced and tuned at Ellis Brigham in London, so maybe they over-sharpened them? I'm not sure if that's actually a thing, ans this whole tuning business is very new for me.
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Maybe they didn't detune the tips?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Possibly, but they're supposed to know what they're doing...
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see what your saying. I thought you were possibly just rolling your edges ...
Detuning .. sounds like a good idea ... ( maybe
Spyderjon ??)
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Thu 27-02-14 14:43; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I'm sure Samerberg Sue had an issue with this and it was simply down to unfinished patch when the edges were tuned. Worth getting them looked at I think.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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De-Tune, check edge angles
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Thanks folks. Will go into a shop in Lech when I'm there this weekend and hopefully they can sort me out. Will they be able to see if there's a problem, or is it just a matter of having them do it from scratch and do it properly?
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You know it makes sense.
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A detune is nothing more than slightly blunting the edges to a certain point from the tips and tails.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Some shops don't detune the tips and tails unless you ask them to. It's easy to do yourself - just run a pebble gently down the edge about 10 cms from the tip and tail, you should be able to see and feel the edge get blunter. Also, it's a good idea to check the entire length of the ski for any differences in tune - it usually fairly easy to feel.
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Poster: A snowHead
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The tool for detuning tips is a Gummi (rubber) stone which you can get cheaply from a ski shop. Jons ski tuning tips says it's not necessary to detune shaped skis and I think he is right after experimenting so don't bother anymore.
Normally if I dare suggest there is something wrong with the skis I get a roll of the eyes and a tweak of the technique does the trick so I would try a detune first and if that does not work suggest a lesson. To be honest I'm impressed if you are edging a ski that wide as most skiers I see on a ski that wide are just skidding on piste.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Not sure a de-tune would make a difference.
Has someone knackered up the base angle?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
Normally if I dare suggest there is something wrong with the skis I get a roll of the eyes and a tweak of the technique does the trick
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+1 to that!
I've lived out here since 2006, I have never, ever mucked about with edge angles... all my gear gets a standard service at the beginning of the year and a top up if I have damaged them or they need a re-way (normally once per pair, per season).
I have fat skis, sl skis, tourers, all mountains, 123's and some big feet... I just have to adjust technique to fit the ski appropriately.
Grippy tips could be just a case that you are edging correctly at the start of a turn and then it all goes to poop and you are sliding the turn out....
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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flangesax,
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then it all goes to poop
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I do love a bit of technical skiing terminology. 
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DisconnectedAG, not a burr if it's on both skis I'd suggest.
Ski geometry pretty similar (identical?) between both pairs.
One set have better edges than the other and it's user error. Find a good instructor, stop blaming the tools.
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under a new name, if it had been badly tuned then you could easily have a hanging burr on both skis, as per that link to the jedi masters page! You may be mixing up hanging burr with a burr caused by a stone strike???
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kitenski, indeed I might. Except that there's no mention of a tune between them being fine and not? ooops, except there is I think (?)
hmmm, could possibly be a dodgy tune. doesn't sound as though they were used enough to need any sort of work however?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Please don't tune them... or pay to tune them... pop that money towards a lesson, or another holiday to grab some more experience with them!
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I want my tips to dig in, it's when they don't that I get worried and think that I should perhaps get round to sharpening the buggers.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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flangesax, & ScarpaTheAvalanchePoodle, guys, I think you need to meet in the breakfast room crack open a few beers and have a good chat about the pros and cons of not tuning and tuning. Record it and post it back on here, I think that would cover the subject then. 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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waynos, The ten yearly tune not working?
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BTW, we are in the breakfast room but only I'm drinking beer.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Masque, I've skied a couple of pairs of Icelantics - not sure which models but I found both of them really twitchy and hooky. I thought it was the geometry of the ski rather than a service problem.
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Poster: A snowHead
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rob@rar, hmmmm... In which case it was probably a mistake? to use them to learn to tele on  Yes they were a bit twitchy on bulletproof but I put that down to the butterknife state of the edge tune which also forced me to angulate properly rather than just rely on the edges. Quiver update is on the cards anyway.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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DisconnectedAG,
+ 1 more, for a simple detuning of the tips and tails, approx 5cms - and on tips not beyond the 'line' of the main ski edge i.e. just to the 'corner' of the tip curve/nose. If edges too sharp in this section of the ski then expect hooking!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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DisconnectedAG, sounds very like a tune issue following the service the skis received. Most likely there's a hanging burr still left but if the 'full service' that the skis received included a base grind then it's also possible that the base edge angle has not been reset correctly, especially at the tips. Do NOT detune before you've checked that neither of these two conditions exist.
The problem with detuning (which dates back to the straight ski days) is that once the metal has been removed it can't be recovered plus it reduces the effective edge & if it's a shorter radius ski will adversely effect grip on steeps etc. Far better to actually increase the base edge angle a tad at the contact points at the tips that way you'll get a more progressive engagement but still retain full length sharpness etc - unfortunately most shops/techs don't know how to do this (or fully understand edge geometry for that matter).
rob@rar, agreed re the geometry of Icelantics (short length/very short radius/wide tips) make them more prone to hooking.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
DisconnectedAG,
+ 1 more, for a simple detuning of the tips and tails, approx 5cms - and on tips not beyond the 'line' of the main ski edge i.e. just to the 'corner' of the tip curve/nose. If edges too sharp in this section of the ski then expect hooking!
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NOOOOOOOOOOOO... JUST LEARN TO SKI!!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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flangesax, +1 Detuning means bluntening your skis so that they do not grip properly at the tips and tails. The whole shape of a modern ski is designed to do just that. IMHO you may as well get a shorter and softer ski and learn to use it.
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That does not mean blades 
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What spyderjon says. I've had several pairs of ski's that have come back from being 'serviced' with similar symptoms due to a hanging bur not being removed. One shop tried to cover by suggesting they used special edge angles for the special snow in the valley.....
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AndAnotherThing.., I saw this very thing on a friends skis a few weeks ago.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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FAQ
Dam near crapped myself in the process 
