 Poster: A snowHead
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There seems to be a widely-held view that 100+mm waist skis are a viable as your do anything ski. Recent experience makes me question this - I think fatter skis are only suitable as your only pair of skis once you have stopped caring about improving your piste skiing.
Context - I currently use two pairs of skis - 179cm/100mm Line Prophets and 174cm/75mm Stoeckli Stormriders. They actually have similar side cut (arund 18m radius) but very different construction (Stoecklis are basically slightly fatter GS race skis, Lines are considerably lighter despite extra bulk).
Until last week, my last 20 days had been on the Lines. Last week I skied 7 days on the Stoecklis.
It was very interesting to be reminded that there were things that I could do on the Stoecklis that I just cant do nearly as well on the Lines. Most striking was carving short linked turns on a hardpack red run - the quickness and precision in getting from edge to edge (and getting from deeply dropped hip and high edge angle one side all the way to the other) was a revelation. The Lines have plenty of shape and I can set them at high edge angles (touching the snow with my inside hand) when the pistes are forgiving but when they are hard or steep it is a big commitment to get all the way over to the high edge angle and if you dont commit and get caught halfway then you can get horrible chatter as the edges bite and release (to the extent that I have had a ski thrown off at speed!). This would be an obstacle to developing high level carving skills - you want equipment that builds your confidence.
Also found drills like skiing on one ski, skiing on the outside edges were much more effective on the narrower skis.
I'm not saying fat skis are bad - I will still be using fatter skis more - just that I think that intermediate / advanced skiers should think hard about buying anything more than 85mm in the waist if they want to improve technique.
Incidently we did get a couple of falls of snow in the week (20cm and 10cm). I was also reminded that fat skis dont really give you much extra help in boot top powder - it was only when the snow got chopped up and heavy/crusty that I began to miss the Lines... Now admittedly the Stoecklis were designed as 60/40 off/on piste skis 8 years ago so should be alright offpiste.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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hello 2004.....
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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jedster, I've a fairly similar setup (179/98cmm Prophets and 170cm/72mm Blizzards) and I feel pretty much the same. I skied for 3 weeks in January, about 50%/50% on each pair. The last week was an off piste course but it included a lot of on piste drills too and I had to work very hard on these. The previous week I'd skied mainly on the Blizzards and through some drills my skiing had come on a fair bit. The Lines however were great on pretty deep powder. I'm off again soon for a longer stay and will certainly mix and match skis depending on conditions and what I'm planning for the day.
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jedster, interesting post. To me it confirms that ski designers know what they are doing. Different types of ski will give you different kinds of performance depending on the situation that you are skiing in.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Other things being equal, narrower skis will perform better on piste than fatter skis. But are other things equal? I have never skied on Prophets, but I have demoed Line Sick Days (95mm waist) and found them tricky around the edge angle at which they transition from skidding to biting, I guess a similar experience to jester's "get caught halfway then you can get horrible chatter as the edges bite and release". I do not experience the same issue on my Soul 7s (106mm waist), which I treat as all-mountain rather than pure free ride skis. Following some instruction at the beginning of the season my piste skiing has improved considerably on the Souls.
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jedster, I think that's about right. I found Sunday on getting heavy in the sunshine not so super light anyway chopped up powder that I might want something wider than my mantras... 
There are some Idris around that I will take out for a test... once the tourists have all gone home.
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I used to have Prophet 100s and I agree that they're NOT AMAZING on piste...too light and floppy really. Try a pair of stiffer and heavier fat skis in a similar shape and you'll find they perform pretty good on piste as long as you want to do GS turns. Doing shorter carved turns would pretty tricky as they'll be slower edge to edge and less nimble than your Stoecklis.
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just that I think that intermediate / advanced skiers should think hard about buying anything more than 85mm in the waist if they want to improve technique
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Or they could just own more than one pair of skis. Problem solved.
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The trouble I have with owning two pairs of ski's is that 1) I only go 2 weeks (sometimes 1) a year and 2) On many days it could be a fair mixture of off and on piste. For me full on off piste ski's are for those that ski a lot and have days skiing pow almost day. Otherwise how do you justify it.
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| Quote: |
There seems to be a widely-held view that 100+mm waist skis are a viable as your do anything ski. Recent experience makes me question this - I think fatter skis are only suitable as your only pair of skis once you have stopped caring about improving your piste skiing.
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I think it depends on what a "do anything ski" is. I don't think intermediate/advanced skiers who want to improve their on-piste technique are really candidates for one. The problem is taking a statement said in context and ignoring that context to apply it as a general comment.
For example I'd heartily recommend a 100mm waist ski as the "do anything ski" for ski-touring in Iceland and Scotland.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Also meh +1
Also think about the construction. Of course a heavy race construction ski will carve better than a light floppy wide ski. Try something like a Dynaster Legend Pro 105 (or XXL!) and you might find less of a difference. If you can go fast enough to bend them anyway.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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clarky999, Concept have some Downs. Which was where I'd borrow the Idris.
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| jedster wrote: |
It was very interesting to be reminded that there were things that I could do on the Stoecklis that I just cant do nearly as well on the Lines. Most striking was carving short linked turns on a hardpack red run - the quickness and precision in getting from edge to edge (and getting from deeply dropped hip and high edge angle one side all the way to the other) was a revelation.......
Also found drills like skiing on one ski, skiing on the outside edges were much more effective on the narrower skis.
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I'm sorry but is this supposed to be surprising, carvers carve better shocker 
I'm not really sure what the obsession with ski width is on here. When I'm skiing on piste, the majority of people there are on reasonably skinny skis, when I'm skiing off piste, more people will be on fatter skis than skinny. In some resorts more people will be on fatter skis, in some more people will be on thinner skis, I had always assumed this was because people tended to go off piste or stick to pistes much more in some resorts. People pick different skis depending on where they are skiing, usually they even manage to pick the correct ski for where they are skiing.
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You know it makes sense.
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clarky999, the XXLs have a turn radius of 40m or so. carving is possible but interesting
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| I'm not really sure what the obsession with ski width is on here. |
I used to say to the girls, don't worry about the length feel the width.
I enjoyed working in that ski shop.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| People pick different skis depending on where they are skiing, usually they even manage to pick the correct ski for where they are skiing. |
Err, I think that is what is being discussed and what peope are trying to achieve 
And as the conversation goes I don't think it as simple as saying fat ski's for off piste, skinny ski's for on piste.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Arno wrote: |
| clarky999, the XXLs have a turn radius of 40m or so. carving is possible but interesting |
Ha, tell me about it! I've only managed about two pure carved turns on my EHPs (41m radius), you quickly run out of space!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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don't worry about the length feel the width.
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Wasn't that a 'rattle-ism' ? and more correctly I think he said 'Never mind the quality feel the width' phhht phhht phhht
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I skied my 174 Atomic D2 Redster GS (17.8m radius) skis in every condition this past week from thigh deep powder, to light crud, to 3 day old snow with a sun/wind crust, to bumps, to spring corn as well as on piste and found to my surprise that I could ski them everywhere and had amazing fun.
(OK the 3 day old fresh with sun/wind crust was quite a big challenge and I found myself getting a bit back seat at times, but I still had good fun)
I also took out some rental 192 Salomon Shoguns (28.9m radius with 101 waist) on one day and although they were solid in crud and floated well in knee deep snow whilst still being able to carve long turns on piste, I found that I actually missed getting deeper into the snow on my GS skis.
I think(!) what I am trying to saying is that I actually preferred skiing the GS skis in all conditions bar the wind crust snow which the Shoguns powered through and skiing them in all all conditions would certainly make me a better skier rather than necessarily choosing the 'correct fat skis' for the deeper stuff.
Disclaimer: This would not hold true for me for Japan or anything more than thigh deep! 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Totally accept the point about construction and stiffness - although have to say I wouldn't personally want a ski with 40m radius as my only pair of skis! Also I don't think that more burly construction would solve edge to edge quickness.
All that said, my point wasn't that fatter skis are a waste of time, just a word of caution for advanced skiers who ski a mixture of on and off piste to think twice before they follow fashion and go fat for a one ski quiver.
Problem with having more than one pair of skis is that unless you travel with stupid amounts of baggage, you always have the nasty suspicion that you've got the wrong ones with you. Unless of course you have a base in the mountains.
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Touchguru, haha excellent.
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Touchguru, could that be because you're more used to the GS skis? I tend to find I like skiing best on the ski I ski the most.
The weirdest sensation is skiing fat rockered skis for a sustained period of time then going back to something with camber and a stiff tail. I nearly fell over because my brain was so used to being able to pivot really easily and suddenly this meaty tail is there preventing it.
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| meh wrote: |
Touchguru, could that be because you're more used to the GS skis? I tend to find I like skiing best on the ski I ski the most.
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That is possible (although I had only skied my GS skis for 6 days prior to the last week)
I think I just enjoyed being able to be fully in the snow rather than above it and then everything else (bar the sun/wind crust) I would choose the GS skis even though I have a few pairs of 'fat' (96, 115 and 128 waist) skis.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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ansta1,
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| Wasn't that a 'rattle-ism' ? |
Probably. I wondered why it came into my head 
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| Layne wrote: |
Err, I think that is what is being discussed and what peope are trying to achieve
And as the conversation goes I don't think it as simple as saying fat ski's for off piste, skinny ski's for on piste. |
I don't know, I think this sentence from the OP is saying something quite different to pick the skis you prefer for the conditions you ski
"I think fatter skis are only suitable as your only pair of skis once you have stopped caring about improving your piste skiing. "
This topic just seems to have been done to death, and I know I'm contributing to it but...
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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lynseyf, yeah given we had it at length in the Equipment forum just last week this does feel a bit like groundhog day... just less fun. 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I got u babe
As above define all mountain and you've got a chance. Piste skiing on hard hardpack is only a small bit for me and it's about the area I'm least interested in improving in as I'm not interested in racing and frankly there' s usually too many people about to enjou it.
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You know it makes sense.
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lynseyf, no, not too skinny and I was reflecting on how good and versatile the SLs were just earlier this very day 
Just to amplify, as the SLs are now jnackered and due for replacement next year, that I will be replacing them.
But worse, just how agile and skiable I found my new 203 SGs were - even in powder....!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I took my SL skis off piste a bit yesterday. Still good fun and better for the scraped bumps in narrow rides. But my 98mms with a radius of 19m that were my only ski for 6 years now get left in the car when I'm skiing on piste. Anyone got any dirt cheap Super G skies for me?
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Poster: A snowHead
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Actually I had a pair of SL skis for a while and they were much better off piste than I expected, I skied them a lot in Scotland in varied conditions and they were great at cutting through slush or crud but they were soooo heavy, I would have to up the squats if I wanted to ski them everyday.
ScarpaTheAvalanchePoodle, bumps were one of the places I found my SLs unmanageable as they were too stiff for me there, I'm rubbish at bumps anyway but can manage a bit better on something softer
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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lynseyf, tbh, SLs are too curvy and torsionally rigid rather than too stiff for good rut lining. Imo.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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ScarpaTheAvalanchePoodle,
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Anyone got any dirt cheap Super G skies for me?
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I have, but you are not having them until you up your life insurance
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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My main ski has been K2's Rictor (All mountain - tip rockered) for a couple of years.
I have an off piste touring set-up too for mainly off piste days.
The Rictors did everything they said on the tin. Grippy on piste, tips floated off piste, so they were fine in all kinds of off piste conditions.
Earlier this season I nabbed some ex race tuned Salomon SL skis.
I also set up a new wide boy set up of some Big Daddies (130mm under foot).
From this ocmbo I realsied that the Rictors are fantastic all mountain skis but a bit of a 'jack of all trades' when it comes to technique.
They are so adaptive that you can 'blag' your technique a little.
The new SL skis require more thought and much more effort to get right, along with the massive daddies when on piste!!!
So yeah....
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I'm sorry but is this supposed to be surprising, carvers carve better shocker
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Skied my "all mountain" Volkl Mantras for 6 and a half weeks as my only ski and have been very happy with them. Better hard snow performance than my previous Scott Punishers and also better off piste which is where they've been skied 80% or more of the time.
Last week in the Ski Amade region there was little chance to ski off piste, partly due to the conditions but mainly because I was skiing with family and friends. After 3 days I wasn't really enjoying my skiing much (all on piste), so decided to rent some piste skis to see if that would be more fun. After explaining my needs, I walked out of the rental shop with Atomic's latest top of the range slalom skis, length 160, waist 67mm and radius 11m.
Next day saw more of the same conditions, blue skies and good but hard packed pistes and the rental skis were........ Fantastic!!
I'd completely forgotten how much fun pistes could be. The ability to rail turns even on the hardest snow, the feeling of pushing hard at the end of one turn so the skis seem to shoot beneath you to the other side but with the confidence of knowing that when you land on the next outside ski edge, it will be rock solid and hold you there and arc you around until you're ready to pop over to the other side again. Bliss.
The Mantras are a stiff 98mm waist all mountain ski with a metal top sheet, constructed in a similar way to a race ski. My off piste skiing, particularly in variable (crap) snow has certainly improved whilst I've had them but my piste skiing has stood still. They are not piste skis.
If you want to improve on piste or off piste, I think it's probably easier with something designed for the job.
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I agree entirely. I have a pair of the original BBR 7.9, and a pair of slightly detuned (riser plate taken off, lighter bindings put on) Salomon S-LAb 3V slalom skis. The BBR isn't wide underfoot, but it does have more float off-piste from the tip than any purely piste ski I've skied, and yes, they do carve quite well, but I skied both pairs in the same morning at New Year, and the 3V's have SO much more grip, bounce and bite on piste than the BBR's. However, as soon as there's any depth of fresh snow, or you start venturing even a little off the piste, the 3V starts getting too twitchy and the versatility of the BBR's comes in to it's own.
My 17 year old daughter has the same BBR's as me, and goes ballistic on piste on them - I would just love to see what she could do on my 3V's, but she's not interested in trying!
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I've done most of my sliding round on my bigger skis recently, due to the really nice snow conditions I've been lucky enough to get. They're 191cm long, 112mm underfoot and have a 37m radius. This was mostly in light chop, but with some deep new snow and some variable stuff. I've enjoyed them and have been trying to get some nice big angles going.
Last week I was enjoying "Scottish Powder" so had a crack on my smaller skis: 177cm long, 77mm underfoot and 15.5m radius. From the first run I was amazed how quickly and easily they got carving quite tight turns.
So; has the time spent trying to get high edge angles on the bigger skis actually helped my technique on the smaller skis?
I think so, but am prepared to be shot down in flames 
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I'll just chuck this out here to show what you (maybe - I can't!) can do on fat skis out of the powder...
http://vimeo.com/87972046
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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wow! loved the vid. Not sure what it's got to to with this thread though (about whether ONLY skiing fat skis is a good idea for intermediate/advanced skiers)
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clarky999 Not impressed. I didn't see one clean carved turn.
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