 Poster: A snowHead
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Scarlet, I stayed in a hotel in Austria the other week where the manager told me he hadn't locked the front door in all the 12 years he'd been there. In all that time he'd only had one issue and that was some drunk who stumbled in at whatever time and had a little kip. Bigger resorts certainly attract more thieves but, ultimately, lock or not, a thief has tons of time and little resistance especially while you are out skiing.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| thecramps wrote: |
| andyrew, correct apart from the candlestick. It was a black scott ski pole |
ahh thread crossover, how very clever. One has to be so agile these days. Dare I? Dare I?
RR.... RRRa.... Down boy, bad boy, down,
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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andyrew, go on, you know you want to.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Alright.
No way would it have been Scotts
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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We were holidaying up in the mountains in Italy one year. Just a cluster of rooms around a main building. I woke early one morning and went to watch the sunrise from the cliff edge. Get back to our room and someone's been in and nicked my Gucci and phs Armani watches while phil and our daughter were in there fast asleep!
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^ likely story. Sure they weren't Lizzy Duke specials? 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Shimmy Alcott, Ooh, that's reet posh, so you wear Gucky, Ducky? 
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Alastair Pink, I wear it around Aldi, so they think I'm a savvy shopper rather than hard up on my luck
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Shimmy Alcott, property is theft 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Veering off thread a bit but the watch story reminds me of a trip to Sauze D'Oulx in the late 80s in a group of 20-something males. The first thing the hotel did was take our passports and told us it was Italian practice to do so.
Staggering home in the early hours after a half of shandy I found the hotel's front door unlocked, and the lobby deserted and in darkness. Looking for the room keys behind the desk (and it was only a desk, not a counter) I opened a drawer and found in it, all our passports in a bundle.
Needless to say I retrieved mine and so did the rest of our group the next day.
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Sounds to me like the rep spoke out of turn when saying not to worry about the first lesson, and then got in bother when the first ski school came looking for payment. I also suspect the 'correct' ski school were going to want their full payment, and that there may have been some negotiation between them and the TO to therefore still give three days tuition.
The bottom line is that the request for payment for the first lesson was after all the lessons were completed, and was a change to what they had previously been told. Should they have been given the option of taking 2 days and paying no more money, that would have been a fair solution, but they were not given that option.
In all seriousness, I suspect that if a tour operator told any of us that we were going to get an extra lesson for free, the majority would happily accept and see it as fair compensation for all the hassle of that first morning.
Refusing transfer home is a nonsense, and not something they have the right to do.
Final point would be that whilst it seems ridiculous that the reps cant call the clients, am I missing something or why didnt you just call her??
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
Refusing transfer home is a nonsense, and not something they have the right to do.
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and possibly illegal under the laws designed to prevent use of threats to pressure people to pay off a debt.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
Sounds to me like the rep spoke out of turn when saying not to worry about the first lesson, and then got in bother when the first ski school came looking for payment. I also suspect the 'correct' ski school were going to want their full payment, and that there may have been some negotiation between them and the TO to therefore still give three days tuition.
The bottom line is that the request for payment for the first lesson was after all the lessons were completed, and was a change to what they had previously been told. Should they have been given the option of taking 2 days and paying no more money, that would have been a fair solution, but they were not given that option.
In all seriousness, I suspect that if a tour operator told any of us that we were going to get an extra lesson for free, the majority would happily accept and see it as fair compensation for all the hassle of that first morning.
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Absolutly correct if only i could make my point so easily.
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Final point would be that whilst it seems ridiculous that the reps cant call the clients, am I missing something or why didnt you just call her??
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as for this point we did no havethe reps number on us two of us myself included where heading bac to the chalet to try and get it when we was told it was all sorted and that the ski school had found an instructor and problem was averted,
we only found out later that day that there was a different ski school. The issue then arrose from there,
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Poster: A snowHead
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Sounds like a micommunication with fault on boths sides but if you have accepted, received and ackowledged that you have taken a service then difficult to argue that you should not pay for it without documentation. Suggest best to accept and move on.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
| if you have accepted, received and ackowledged that you have taken a service then difficult to argue that you should not pay for it without documentation. Suggest best to accept and move on. |
Seems there are a few different opinions on here. Personally, if facts are as presented by OP, then there is no way I'd be paying. Operator has to take responsibility for actions of its employees.
And my suspicion is most of posters on here saying "pay up" would take a different stance if they were the customer. And to say you should have got written confirmation of the name of the ski school or whatever is ridiculous. You're on holiday, using the 'professional' services of the rep, you expect them to take the lead in providing clear instructions.
Sad to say on this forum, but I suspect you may have received more sympathy from some of the other posters had your written English been up to their 'standards'.
(edited to remove TTT's name from quote - my comments were not aimed at him/her, that was just the previous post hence the quote)
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| kerb wrote: |
| I suspect you may have received more sympathy from some of the other posters had your written English been up to their 'standards'. |
The jury has thrown the prosecution's case out as the prosecution has failed to make itself understood. They imagine that the prosecution was as incomprehensible to deal with in the original situation as they are in court.
From what I've been able to gather from the thread, lessons were booked for days 1, 2 and 3.
Lessons provided on day 1 were by a different ski school by mistake.
Further lessons were taken on days 2, 3 and 4 with the original school as it was accepted that there was a failure in communication on day 1, so the lesson was reorganised to a different day.
The sensible thing would have been to have cancelled day 4, and used the cash to pay for day 1. However that didn't happen, and it's too late to rewrite history.
So either (1) OP got a free lesson on day 1; or (2) OP pays for the day 1 lesson.
Arlberg lessons are indeed eye-wateringly expensive. I haven't paid quite enough attention, but I suspect the two ski schools in question are in fact owned by the same person/family anyway.
Ski Total rep seems to have got knickers in twist a bit; but OP comes across as confused and possibly a little aggressive so sympathy has landed on rep, rather than OP. Unsubstantiated and somewhat incoherent allegations of theft levelled at Ski Total staff, ["several" - SEVERAL? people lost an ENTIRE??? day's skiing? as a result] combined with unrealistic expectation that staff from other chalets shouldn't come into OP's chalet suggest that OP is scraping the bottom of the barrel for more mud to back up his case; when in fact it just makes OP seem unreasonable.
I think OP should offer half as they got an extra lesson and surely didn't expect not to have to pay for it (unless complete numpties) indeed I should imagine you were quite gleeful about your free lesson, and I think school from days 2,3,4 should pay a quarter - as the reasonable thing would have been to have cancelled day 4 and used the cash to pay for day 1 (and they were numpties for not doing so) - and school from day 1 should take a quarter of the cost too as they were numpties for taking a non-booked lesson on. That way everybody is a bit out of pocket.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Wed 19-02-14 14:29; edited 1 time in total
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
ounds to me like the rep spoke out of turn when saying not to worry about the first lesson, and then got in bother when the first ski school came looking for payment. I also suspect the 'correct' ski school were going to want their full payment, and that there may have been some negotiation between them and the TO to therefore still give three days tuition.
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Agreed
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Apropos a recent thread - how much easier would this have been if all lessons had had to be paid for at the time of booking?
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To weigh in on this important issue if this is St Anton - the onus should be on the Rep to make sure everyone understands it isn't Blue Ski School Arlberg providing the lessons as they are the default option. So my sympathy is with the OP even his communication isn't clear. Rep should have sorted it out and made clear to all parties at the end of the first day the cock up occured. Leaving to the end of the week and exploiting hostage value is a total BS move and should be escalated to RM and UK management.
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James the Last, +1
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James the Last, +1.
That said, we weren't there and I do appreciate that written and verbal communication are different skills.
I guess the point of this sort of thread is to help with setting expectations of what WE would expect. So: the best I'd be hoping for is them meeting me halfway on the cost or a skiTotal voucher for the full amount as 'goodwill'. But then I'm often told I'm a very patient customer. Alternatively: If you have already left and haven't paid them yet, I'd be very surprised if they chase it up.
Other stuff:
Random chalet staff in your chalet is annoying but normal.
The phones thing is wierd - I've travelled skitotal and they called us all the time (shuttle service)
The theft is horrible, but not (in my view) skiTotal's 'fault' per se. Lack of locking doors is very normal in chalets and accusing chalet staff was never going to go down well so I'm not surprised they are now being difficult about that.
The company line about transfers is nasty and not something I have ever experienced, but it sounds like it is in fact widely spread (note to self for future!) and may have been done in a 'I'd have to tell you this' way rather than an 'and i MEAN it' way.
hth,
aj xx
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Dav wrote: |
OK this part I don't get, why in a group of 19 guests not one knew what the name of the ski school was. If the rep hasn't told you then its poor service. Although to be fair if none of your group have found that out, I'd be amazed and wonder why.
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THIS!
How come not one person knew who the lesson was with, or thought to ask!??
It does sound like some common sense was severely lacking in this cock-up.
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I'm just saying in my experience without documentation whether you are right or wrong it is difficult to prove your case without documentation so best move on. Generally though legally if you have taken a service then you can expect to pay for it unless proof to the contrary. I would not expect the TO to take the cost knowing how tight margins are in the travel industry. I don't doubt that the TO communication could have been better but communication goes both ways. As to language I think most Brits are in a glass house criticisng some people's English when few of us can communiacate in another language.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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TTT, the original poster is english (or at least that's what the thread responses they made to that point earlier imply)
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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boogwa, Good luck with trying to get the money out of them - personally I'd have refused to pay and said they need to settle it with the ski school. You would still have got on the bus and got to the airport - how is a pimply youth of 20 going to stop a group of 20 from getting on the bus.
Would you pay for dinner in a restaurant if the food never got delivered and you had your drinks and then went to a pizza place (after all that's effectively what happened here)
As to the comments about security - I'd hate to be in a chalet and feel I had to lock my door, even if it was with a bunch of randoms. The last two hotels I've stayed in whilst skiing, I've only bothered to lock the door when I was actually out skiing for the day, but not when I was kicking around the hotel
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It sounds though like they went into the restaurant, ate, subsequently found they were in the wrong restaurant and ate in another restaurant for another 3 nights and then thought they should only pay for 3 nights. Understandably the restaurants wanted to be paid and the person who organised it did not want to pay as they did not eat in any of the restaurants. I know someone who ran a chalet and they got out as they worked like crazy and the Brit customers expected the earth for nothing. If they had to pay for something they did not get I'd understand
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You know it makes sense.
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TTT, correct, except the first restaurant led them to believe that they were the restaurant they had already paid for, and then the agent they booked the restaurant through told them that because of the mistake about the first restaurant, that they wouldn't be charged!!
When a company makes a mistake, as ski total did, they are liable for that mistake, even if it is because a junior staff member told them the wrong thing.
The concept that this is anyones fault but ski totals is odd....
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I don't think the first resturant led them to believe that they had already been paid and were merely trying to help out and don't worry about it does not necessarily mean that you will not be charged. It sounds as if it was a bit of a mess up all round. Legally if you take goods though then you expect to pay for them. Not knowing what restaurant you are eating in and expecting someone who is on thin margins to pay for it is frankly naive. And it is not clear that the TO made a mistake - it appears there was a miscommunications and invariably that requires 2 parties not one - by all means try with the TO but legally you would not stand much chance as they took the services.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Im not sure that you are correct with regards to legal stance. I am actually certain that you would be wrong in the UK, but must confess I have no idea of French law. They went to a ski school meeting point expecting to have their lessons, they were presumably allowed to think that the group they had the lesson with were the ones with whom they had booked. It doesn't seem likely that the guys said 'you have no lessons with us but we will take you anyway'!?
Miscommunications do not take two parties, or certainly do not take three (if you include customer, TO and ski school). They were told the wrong place to go to, or the ski school were not where they were meant to be, in either case it was not their fault.
The OP has stated he was explicitly told by the rep that they would not have to pay for the lesson. Cant change your mind four days later, after they had the other three days.
And for one definite Ski Total had no legal standing upon which to deny them their trip home, or for that matter to threaten to!! That would fall under UK law
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| a.j. wrote: |
| kat.ryb wrote: |
I can 100% believe no one knew the name of the ski school - why would yo uif you thought there was only one, or that only one met at the 'ski school meeting point'? Pay, get voucher, wait at meeting point....oh, it's all a bit confusing and no one seems to be here for us. Call Ski Total, they do b-all, have lesson, it all gets a bit confused as to who is paying.
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I can't, not even a little bit, over a dozen experienced skiers and not one thought 'i bet there is more than one meeting point or ski school in st anton'. No way.....And no matter what my teenage rep said to me, I wouldn't be expecting to get anything I actually received, free of charge - I have enough trouble sometimes not being charged for things that never actually happened! (e.g. one instructor last trip was so late we had given up and left (45mins) - we still nearly ended up paying for it...not the rep/to fault though, even though he had booked it - sorry to say stewart woodward that one WAS the red team )
If it wasn't for the posting history I'd be calling troll....it's just so wierd.... |
If it were any resort other than St Anton I'd agree that it was silly not to check the name of the ski school, but I was under the impression that Arlberg rather famously have a monopoly.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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My understanding is that when you accept goods or services you are deemed to enter into a contract under the associated terms and conditions. Furthermore, surely the purchaser should make sure they know who they are getting, where and when - it sounds like that the info from the TO was not clear enough and the purchaser did not make sure they got the necessary info. Ultimately they got 4 lessons and to think that the instructor and TO to give something for free is unrealistic.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| sugarmoma666 wrote: |
If it were any resort other than St Anton I'd agree that it was silly not to check the name of the ski school, but I was under the impression that Arlberg rather famously have a monopoly. |
Yes i have gathered that since! Maybe they are experienced st anton skiers and so it all makes sense 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Monopoly ended a few seasons ago now and there are a number of smaller instructor/guiding companies around with more springing up each season.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Whilst there was an almighty screw up on the TO side is that worth 300 Euros? I think not.
OP has offered 50% payment. Is the screw up worth 150 Euros? Perhaps.
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But don't you know who I am ?
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| Two vets, A high end Pub Manager, and an accountant |
http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=108563#2482393
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| a JP, a Senior Partner in Law Firm, 2 Army Officers, and a couple of Public Sector Senior Managers. |
http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=88664#2030107
Telling, or asking, or expecting people to be impressed by, or judging worth by vocation. It's all a wee bit cheesy IMHO.
P.S. When a stranger on a catered chalet ski holiday asks me what I do for a living, I normally tell them I'm a drug dealer.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Thu 20-02-14 10:17; edited 1 time in total
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| kerb wrote: |
And my suspicion is most of posters on here saying "pay up" would take a different stance if they were the customer. And to say you should have got written confirmation of the name of the ski school or whatever is ridiculous. You're on holiday, using the 'professional' services of the rep, you expect them to take the lead in providing clear instructions.
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Nope, something similar happened to us this season, it never occurred to me the tour op might fill in the missing cash and yes many of the group did chase the rep up for the voucher and ski school number/confirm meeting point when he didn't give it originally (lesson learnt in previous years). In our case missing red team instructor, red team made a reasonably hard headed attempt to refuse a refund and 'reschedule' to an inconvenient day instead of refund. While in this case the rep was outraged for us, and did go and yell at them with us, it didn't occur to me if that didn't work he would make it up from his own pocket, and if it had been US that had been in the wrong place rather than the instructor, I wouldn't have expected a refund at all, I would have tried, but written it off as lesson learnt if we ended up paying/having it. The reps are usually kids, I don't really rely on them for anything more than telling me where the bar is, I appreciate others feel they should be more professional, but loads of them are pants, so I cross-check them if it's anything important to me.
With what I now understand of the original problem I would be complaining the rep was crap and should have been clearer, but I wouldn't expect to get a free lesson from ANOTHER school, it just doesn't make sense to me that would happen, it's way more expensive than the tat tour ops offer you to cover for mistakes (free entry to an event, a voucher against ski pack next time, an extra cheese course, voucher for a spa or something basically cheap/free/promotional to them). The rep managed to avoid you having to pay for the day1 green lesson you never turned up for, I think that was pretty good going and I'd be happy with that.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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moffatross, to be fair the OP only brought it up as a defence because people on here were slating him for having poor communication skills. The suggestion was that he was probably at fault as this is probably not his strongest point, but you would expect people like vets, who've had to go through a lot of exams and pub managers who work with people to have better communication skills.
He mentioned it in direct response to:
| PJSki wrote: |
Right, I can hardly understand any of that. If your verbal communication is as bad as your written, then I have some sympathy for the TO staff. |
To which PJSki responded, "fair enough".
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Thu 20-02-14 10:23; edited 2 times in total
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moffatross, high end pub manager was my favourite, but I think it's a genuine attempt to point out they aren't kids nor idiots, but professionals capable of complex jobs. Probably rebutting comments like mine which find it unbelievable you wouldn't check this kind of thing.
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FAQ
