 Poster: A snowHead
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What are people's thoughts? I must admit to have done classe 4 on a good few occasions and always enjoyed thoroughly.
I know many SH's hate ESF. But there are advantages:
1. Convenience- you can roll up to many resorts at any time with no pre-booking and just join a class that will take you off-piste. At many times, they will be only outfit taking groups off-piste at given resort.
2. Convenience#2: Meeting points and times run exactly same as kids classes.
3. Despite only being 2.5-3 hours, they cover a lot of ground and you get a lot of skiing done in this time.
4. It is with ski instructors and everytime I have done them I have learnt something and improved my skiing.
On other hand, there are a lot of criticisms, especially by British. Mainly that they don't seem to put same emphasis on everyone having full safety kit incl probe and shovel, no time "wasted" on avalanche training, etc. They also seem to run the classes a little different - no waiting around for everyone to go down the slope one at a time - the group keeps moving, often with many skiers on the slope at the same time (can be some pressure to keep up if you haven't done much off-piste, and I would say they do seem to move a bit faster than your average "intermediate" level off-piste group). Also, while instructors will nearly always speak English, depending on instructor sometimes you may feel you are not quite up to speed with everything going on, always a little disconcerting in backcountry.
Against the above points, particularly with regard to perceived safety issues, they would appear to have excellent safety record. Avalanche incidents involving ESF groups appear very rare from what I can make out, and while not zero, the rate would appear remarkably low considering the huge number of ESF groups going off-piste at so many resorts every single day over the Winter. I assume this is down to unique local knowledge and understanding of weather and snow conditions, and expert judgment in route choice etc. Certainly French clients appear to have huge confidence in ESF and no concerns regarding safely.
I would be interested in hearing opinions of SH's who have done classe 4, or who instructors / guides in resorts where ESF offers classe 4, or anyone else.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I. Have been in class 4 many times never had any issues they supply a I kit if u don,t have it always rated the instructors move people around if they think your in the wrong group 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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peanuthead, ~I've used ESF a few times for off piste and never had anything other than a good time. Several times they have used UIAGM guides working with the ski school.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I've used classe4. Day one - class of 10, one run on piste, handed round transceivers, a quick ski pole diagram of searching for someone, then straight off the back of the mountain. 3 of us were pretty much incapable of the terrain/conditions the instructor chose and he was obviously annoyed about this, 3 others were capable but found the terrain choice and safety checks worrying. We aborted the route and headed to a busstop somewhere on the route. The remaining 4 returned for a second day. They were heli'd off the mountain....
Despite this I actually would use classe4 again, have recommended it to others and agree with your points. As long as you are a strong offpiste skier it is cheap, convenient and interesting. ESF just don't seem so good at bridging the gap between 'trying off piste' and 'good enough to cope with most things thrown at you'.
Jess
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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The ESF-led group we saw in La Grave was certainly keeping up a spanking pace and lapped our group.
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| stewart woodward wrote: |
2. 'Grand ski'. This is 'guided' off piste with some tuition. Normally split into different group standards. |
Out of interest, what is the minimum standard required to join the lowest group, and how do you assess people who want to sign up?
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| miranda wrote: |
| stewart woodward wrote: |
2. 'Grand ski'. This is 'guided' off piste with some tuition. Normally split into different group standards. |
Out of interest, what is the minimum standard required to join the lowest group, and how do you assess people who want to sign up? |
Normally we have an instructor in the office each evening 17.00 - 17.30 so you can come and have a chat about your skiing level, weather conditions, proposed groups etc.
Good red run skiers is the minimum standard but it is quite often a 'state of mind' rather than skier standard.
ps. In Tignes we supply all safety equipment for off piste groups.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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stewart woodward, thanks, that interesting - it sounds very accessible for the average skier (good red run + not required to have their own safety gear).
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stewart woodward, sounds more like it  Do you also run a classe4? What caught us out at the time was that here seemed to be class1-4 + an offpiste course (+a slalom one too), so we were caught of guard by the class4=straight off the piste no questions asked. As I say it hasn't put me off, I just only recommend to those who are a) brave and self suffcient b) already done a fair bit of offpiste. For those inbetween stages we now try and use smaller, brit schools when we get the chance or private lessons.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Maybe the assumption with ESF is that one had "passed" all the different levels, so just about ready for anything by class 4? For French people who went through the ESF levels as a child, I suppose it would have been a "morceau de gateau".
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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or maybe not  prompted me to look it up
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The French expression c'est pas* de la tarte is equivalent to "it's not easy, it's tough, it's hard work." What's really interesting is to compare this to the English expression "It's a piece of cake." At first glance, it seems like an almost perfect equivalent. However, the French expression is rarely used in the affirmative (that is, to say that something is easy), and the English isn't used in the negative (to say that something is not easy). The equivalence of tarte and "cake" makes it seem like these expressions are nearly identical, but the French is usually negative and the English is always positive.
http://french.about.com/od/vocabulary/a/pasdelatarte.htm |
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Claude B, yes, it was a literal translation from the English, just for a bit of fun, but in fact I think the French DO say "c'est du gateau". Can't think where I've heard or seen it, though.
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Poster: A snowHead
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stewart woodward, forgive my ignorance. Which company do you work for?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Many years ago, I survived 1 day with an ESF Mountain Guide as part of a group. It was such a memorable experience, that it was many years before I ventured off piste again.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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snowbunny, Glad you survived! Do tell us more....
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I did an couple of off-piste day with the ESF in Les Menuires a couple of years ago, sounds similar to what stewart woodward, describes in that we went to the office the night before to chat to the instructor. We didn't ski any particularly hard or steep slopes but it was off piste all day and away from the pistes so it would have been a tough day if you were struggling. To be fair to them it was not billed as an intro to off piste and I would never have booked a course like that if all I was skiing was little bits at the sides of the piste.
I think it's quite a British thing to over estimate your skiing so I could see how some people who might rate themselves "expert" might get a bit of a shock. To me if you are an expert skier, even if you don't ski off piste a lot your technique should be good enough that you should be able to adapt quite quickly. I had to laugh a bit when I skied with my German work mates when I first moved here as they were all telling me they were rubbish and didn't ski regularly anymore then proceed to bomb away down the mountain, blacks, off the side of the piste, everywhere. I think I have a fairly realistic idea of my own skiing so I was happy when we got to the first lift and they told me I skied well for a Brit
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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One thing I've noticed about classe 4 is how good skiers the French clients are, clearly having come up through levels as children, many having raced competitively etc
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| lynseyf wrote: |
| I think it's quite a British thing to over estimate your skiing |
Perhaps it's just a matter of different standard?
It may not be that Brits purposedly exaggerate their ability, but they subconciously compare themselves to other average 1-week-a-year Brits?
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stewart woodward, again sorry for ignorance. I am a lowly client. But hopefully that means I might be getting you as instructor next time I'm in Tignes (possibly next month)
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
I thought you were the tax man
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Had some of my best ever days on snow with ESF off piste/guiding groups. Fantastic skiing and memorable picnics of wine, cheese, bread and saucisson in beautiful and peaceful surroundings far from the crowded pistes.
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pam w, At no stage was the group instructed on the use of safety kit, though some was issued. The slope was beyond the ability of several of the group (me included) I had a yardsale fall in breakable crust. The area was off bounds and were told we would not be rescued in the event of an accident (a nature reserve). At the end was told that we were the worst group he'd ever taken. These days, I'm more picky about who takes me off piste. It won't ever be the ESF.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
At the end was told that we were the worst group he'd ever taken.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
we got a bit more encouragement that that
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Claude B, yes, indeed!
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FAQ
) including being outright told to go up a level, but I think fitness and experience in bad conditions is what sets the classe4 survivors apart, and I lack both, evidently!
you could have worked that out quiet easily but just to clarify. I work for private clients, ESF & Snoworks during the winter & various UK construction companies during the summer.
