 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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It's inevitable and it'll happen in Europe eventually.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You know I think that makes sense, how many groups of high school kids are likely to be expert off piste skiers ?
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There have been a number of accidents with school trips, not just skiing, but canoeing etc. Once again it comes back to the 'nanny state' debate, but placing your kids in the care of an institution/school/club etc, you've got to be sure that all the proper precautions have been taken, that the carers themselves have actually received training that means something.
There will be a problem defining what is off-piste though here in France. Would this mean a club coach (and not a mountain guide) can no longer take his group off piste to train? If you hire an ESF instructor for the day for a minor, would he have to stick strictly to the recognised runs and boundaries?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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My daughter is about to go on a school ski trip. They are definately not allowed to go off piste unless with an instructor. That seems sensible to me, and I would certainly expect no school groups to go of piste without a qualified guide. In fact in a previous trip a kid went off piste anyway, against the rules of the trip. He was seriously injured and sued the school - the school won the case because they had actually confiscated his pass for a previous infringement, but you see how careful schools have to be!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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One problem any instructor would encounter now is a class which might be part-insured to ski off-piste, now that insurance companies make the distinction. He might be sensible to warn in good time that off-piste is going to be tackled. We're starting to forget that one of the functions of ski instruction is to teach people how to ski powder, crud, crust and spring snow. Everyone aspires to do it and succeed with it.
In contrast, a ski guide is not really expected to teach. I think there is therefore a need to define off-piste which is relatively safe, and distinguish it from off-piste which is more remote and dangerous.
Instructors should be qualified to distinguish between the two, and teach in the former. With increased qualification they can then take a professional judgement in taking people further afield. But we do have to recognise that the off-piste is a teaching environment, aspired to by the public.
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| PG wrote: |
There have been a number of accidents with school trips, not just skiing, but canoeing etc. Once again it comes back to the 'nanny state' debate, but placing your kids in the care of an institution/school/club etc, you've got to be sure that all the proper precautions have been taken, that the carers themselves have actually received training that means something.
There will be a problem defining what is off-piste though here in France. Would this mean a club coach (and not a mountain guide) can no longer take his group off piste to train? If you hire an ESF instructor for the day for a minor, would he have to stick strictly to the recognised runs and boundaries? |
Those subtle distinctiona are already made by the ESF and UIAGM I beleive. It's pretty normal stuff in the mountains, my climbing instructor tickets made similar distictions about single/multi pitch, near road etc etc.
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Still, if they bring in state legislation (ref Canada article) the various French interested parties will have to define 'in law' where the boundaries lie, it's all rather vague at the moment, especially with respect to skiing alongside the piste. I was thinking more in terms of where club instructors can take their charges.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I'm not sure how vague they really are, like my climbing stuff, part of the definition is required for insurance purposes and is supposed to be defendable in law.
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| We're starting to forget that one of the functions of ski instruction is to teach people how to ski powder, crud, crust and spring snow. Everyone aspires to do it and succeed with it. |
I've never ever met an instructor who would go anywhere near breakable crust, they pride themselves on their ability to avoid the stuff. As one ESF instructor said when asked "how do you ski crust?"
you don't!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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In the article it stated the dictum "only applies to groups sponsored by an institution that include at least one minor not in the company of a parent". I would have thought any one thinking of taking a group of kids off-piste without a guide should be locked up!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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My insurance states that I am not insured to ski off-piste unless accompanied by a "suitably qualified guide". Would that include SCGB reps, would you think? 
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maggi - in answer to your question, I don't know. But there aren't many insurance policies out there that cover you for off-piste without a guide. One I know about is the Lloyds TSB Platinum insurance, but that's the only one I've come across.
When my girlfriend (now fiancee, of course!) was looking for cover last year, everywhere she tried only covered off-piste with a guide - not that it was an issue with her.
The question is though, if you're on-piste and fall and end up off-piste, are you covered??
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You know it makes sense.
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My ski insurance covers me for off piste with or without a guide and lots of other stuff as well www.snowcard.co.uk note that off piste boarders have slightly higher premiums .. I wonder why 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I dont know about now but about four years ago in France I got off piste insurance from the local lift pass office to go off piste skiing at an amazing cost of 10FF per day (which I think was equivalent to the grand sum of £1 ~ amazing). I think this included full recovery (by any means) and I think medical cover. Not sure what it would cost now though but the deal of the decade in my book.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Is that the same as the Carre/Carte Neige "insurance" offered when you buy your lift pass? I understood that these only covered piste rescue, and not any additional (hospital/pharmacy) costs incurred after recovery.
Clearly, for some accidents, the piste rescue could well be the largest part of the bill (especially if you have E111 that will cover 65% of the in-patient medical expenses), so for some people may be enough.
But if you're going to get insurance, why not get some that actually covers you for every eventuality? Repatriation, all medical expenses, third party liability (useful if you're in the US, I guess), etc.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I'm not sure as I've not heard about that. As I recall this was specific 'off piste' insurance. I was with a SCGB rep who advised those without specific O/P insurance that we needed it so I assume it was the full monty but judging by the price you might not think so.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I am sure the SCGB insurance covers unlimited off-piste. However, from a safety and enjoyment point of view I only ski with a guide or a qualified leader.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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A lot of insurance policies cover off-piste skiing, but very few cover off-piste without a guide, still fewer cover heliskiing. One of the very few that covers everything is the SCGB insurance.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| davidof wrote: |
| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| We're starting to forget that one of the functions of ski instruction is to teach people how to ski powder, crud, crust and spring snow. Everyone aspires to do it and succeed with it. |
I've never ever met an instructor who would go anywhere near breakable crust, they pride themselves on their ability to avoid the stuff. As one ESF instructor said when asked "how do you ski crust?"
you don't! |
Yes, it's to be avoided, but useful to know how to ski it. From memory the SCGB gold test used to require demonstrable ability to ski breakable crust (which is not very easy to find!), and that test would have been devised in the wooden skis era. I last recall skiing it on the fabulous Wang slope at Engelberg in Switzerland, where a local instructor covered two techniques for skiing it - stem christie and jump turns (well, at least turns with big unweighting). Very challenging!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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David, even the silver test required you to demonstrate an ability to ski it, I remember coming down from the lauberhorn by a very circuitous route to find enough crud to be tested in!
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Best technique for ski-ing breakable crust (apart from avoiding it) is FAT SKIS! Try a pair - the difference is amazing, especially when you're used to slalom racing skis. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| easiski wrote: |
| Best technique for ski-ing breakable crust (apart from avoiding it) is FAT SKIS! |
I discovered what were considered FAT skis 5 years ago are now considered as anorexic as a 1990s supermodel (Dynastar 4x4s). Fat skis do make a difference as you can ski a bit like a boarder - lots of speed and big, wide curves, helps if you can jump the inevitable rock bars though!
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Davidof wrote:
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easiski wrote:
Best technique for ski-ing breakable crust (apart from avoiding it) is FAT SKIS!
I discovered what were considered FAT skis 5 years ago are now considered as anorexic as a 1990s supermodel (Dynastar 4x4s). Fat skis do make a difference as you can ski a bit like a boarder - lots of speed and big, wide curves, helps if you can jump the inevitable rock bars though!
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People, learn to snowboard, even better than fat skis on breakable crust.
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FAQ
