 Poster: A snowHead
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I’m thinking of replacing my Tyrolia Peak 15 with some touring bindings but which ones. I like the look of the Salomon Guardian or the Tyrolia Adrenalin or may the Marker Barons, Duke 
They will be going WD Preachers I run a Din of 7.5 I won’t be doing lots touring just to get to some powder. The Guardians sound good as there only 26mm high and I think you can adjust the toe height so I can run a heel height of flat to plus 2mm max. Has anybody had any experience of them?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Dynafit radicals or Fritschi Vipecs!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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F10/12
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I would not touch the F10/12 - had reliability issues - if you really want a skiing binding you very occasionally tour in then go Baron. If you tour a lot, best to go Dynafit/pin binding
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| SkiingQuinHat wrote: |
| I would not touch the F10/12 - had reliability issues - if you really want a skiing binding you very occasionally tour in then go Baron. If you tour a lot, best to go Dynafit/pin binding |
Which year F 10/12 ?
They seemed to have a lot of failures initially at the interface between toe piece and rails but last years ( pre the new wide pattern) appear to have done ok.
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spyderjon, Why the F10/12
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Glen Charman, I have some post problem 2012 f12s and they work great on my K2 Hardsides, the new wide one would be even better. I was originally going to put them on my preachers so I could use my AT boots with them but decided to go with a lighter ski so I could use them for short hikes as well, in my opinion the preachers would be too heavy for anything but the shortest hike! For any proper touring go tech, with a lighter ski.
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| SkiingQuinHat wrote: |
| I would not touch the F10/12 - had reliability issues - if you really want a skiing binding you very occasionally tour in then go Baron. If you tour a lot, best to go Dynafit/pin binding |
Yeah - I'm surprised to hear this as mine get quite a hammering (more on piste tbh). Bought in 2012/13 IIRC
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F10/F12 if you want to dabble and keep your old alpine boots, they are in my opinion still the allrounder to beat. I absolutely HATE my Barons, they weigh a ton and ski pretty horribly as well (Dukes are even more ridiculous)! If you are really going touring most downhill orientated tech bindings will do the job (Vertical/radical/vipec/Yak/Guide).
I have pushed my radicals pretty hard and NEVER had a pre-release, that said the ex had some issues in the F12s when she didnt clear the ice out properly (but thats the same for tech bindings)
regarding reliability F12s, Barons and Radicals have all been skied hard in terrible snow, done some reasonable sized drops onto hard landings and toured on for whole days, none are busted, none are showing any lateral play.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Glen Charman wrote: |
| spyderjon, Why the F10/12 |
Cos they have most of the good bits of a Duke/Baron, and tour better? Oh, and they're cheaper, too!
Most touring bindings have teething issues in their first season or two. It is well worth staying away from brand new shiny models, and buying the fixed versions next season when the early adopters have found all the failure modes. The Guardians might be past that first stage now (there have been a few cases of the rails snapping in the recent past), and I've often seen them being sold surprisingly cheaply.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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For information.
The original f10/12 had thiner moulding around the front pivot and the hinge pin was held in place by a circlip and I think last made for the 10/11 season and should be avoided. These were replaced by a redesigned model identifiable by a washer not a circlip holding in the hinge pin. This year there is an improved model called the EPF where the binding frame has been widened for use on wider skis.
The ones I use are the 2013 model and are superb and ski just like a regular alpine binding even with an AT boot. They can also be adjusted to take an Alpine boot. There are some minor shortcomings when climbing with then; they can't be switched between modes with the ski on, and care is needed to remove all snow when switching from climbing mode to ski mode., but no big deal really unless you are racing when you would be on tech gear anyway.
I'll try and find a photo to identify the older defective model.
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Picture from TGR identifying the circlip model which should be avoided. In the newer model the c shaped clip in the centre of the photo has been replaced by a washer.
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You know it makes sense.
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My understanding was that was only an issue when "taking a knee"?
But you are right, even the model before the EPF had fixed this issue
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Everything breaks, end off.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Thanks for all the replies
I was put off the F12 last week in Cham, as they were pitching me forward but if the binding has an adjustable toe height I guess it was the shop not setting the bindings up properly
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I've been skiing the Atomic Tracker / Salomon Guardian as a main Alpine binding this season. Love them, rock solid and no different in feel to normal downhill bindings IMHO. I've toured in them a couple of times and managed an 850+m ascent in under two hrs twenty so although heavy they are adequate for single days touring and brilliant at accessing lines. I love them, very sturdy.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Mon 10-02-14 16:38; edited 1 time in total
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Glen Charman, as has been said above the early F's had a few issues, & again as said above were all addressed from the 12/13 production onwards.
| Glen Charman wrote: |
| .....I was put off the F12 last week in Cham, as they were pitching me forward but if the binding has an adjustable toe height I guess it was the shop not setting the bindings up properly |
I think you've got the use of the adjustable toe height feature round your neck a bit. It's not there to allow adjustment of the delta angle, it's there to give the correct 0.5mm gap between the underside of the toe/AFD to give a safe lateral release & it's also to allow adjustment between an alpine boot & a rockered/vibram soled AT boot. When the Duke/Baron/F12/F10's are set for an alpine boot the delta is 2mm (not zero as quoted by Marker) & is 6mm which the majority of AT boots.
For use with an alpine boot the F12/10 are way ahead of the other framed bindings on the market & if you've got tech inserts in your boots I'd go straight to Dynafit as they've got a whole range of options which are also way ahead of the tech binding competition.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Tue 4-02-14 21:50; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Glen Charman, the toe height adjustment is for switching between at and alpine boots, afaik it's not possible to adjust the ramp angle with it. Personally I like the set up it must suit my stiff ankles 
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I wouldn't trust that review very far, they mix weights for pairs of bindings and single bindings in the same table.
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| davidof wrote: |
I wouldn't trust that review very far, they mix weights for pairs of bindings and single bindings in the same table. |
Yes (Dynafit and Plum weights need to be doubled), but other pages I found on the subject were well out of date ...... 
http://pistehors.com/backcountry/wiki/Gear/Touring-Bindings
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| DB wrote: |
| davidof wrote: |
I wouldn't trust that review very far, they mix weights for pairs of bindings and single bindings in the same table. |
Yes (Dynafit and Plum weights need to be doubled), but other pages I found on the subject were well out of date ......
http://pistehors.com/backcountry/wiki/Gear/Touring-Bindings |
the Plum weight is correct, the Dynafit weight needs to be doubled. Given all the problems with the Radical FT over the first couple of years of production it is not a binding I, personally, would use.
The ideal combo would be a Plum heel with a Dynafit Radical Speed toe piece although the Radical Speed in itself, which doesn't suffer the FTs former heel weakness, is a very good binding.
Dynafit have been far too marketing led over the last decade and they've gone astray on a number of occasions with boots and bindings. Starting with the very poor Tri-step which they wouldn't even warranty in the US despite its crapitude. In fairness to Wildsnow, before they became industry shills, they did a good job covering the Tristep problems.
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... but comparing like for like the plum yaks with brakes are around 1.1 kg aren't they? (do the speeds and guides have brakes now?) Dynafits problem with the radical is/was with the heel lift - not something that would normally lead to injury when failure occurs. Didn't plum have problems with screw heads shearing off? I would consider this a far greater risk.
People stock dynafit binding bits in most ski areas, Plum haven't got the same supply/service network, esp. here in Austria.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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davidof, they're definitely catering to the expanding market but I'm not sure that makes them marketing lead.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I keep meaning to pair Vertical ST toes (for the metal crampon slot and longer lever for engaging walk mode) with Speed heels...
back to the OP's question, for a frame binding, I would also go with the Marker F12 - I got a pair and have found it them to ski very well. tour mode is fine for what I use them for - lift served days with the odd hour or so of skinning. they'd be all right for full day trips too really. people are terribly precious about touring kit these days - I spent my first few years touring on Fritschi Diamirs and didn't die and their predecessors were miles worse. As for the boots... 
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| DB wrote: |
| ... but comparing like for like the plum yaks with brakes are around 1.1 kg aren't they? (do the speeds and guides have brakes now?) |
No idea but flappy tech brakes are not going to stop your ski in the steeps so it depends what kind of skiing you are doing whether they are useful.
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Dynafits problem with the radical is/was with the heel lift - not something that would normally lead to injury when failure occurs.
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No it was the antiswivel mechanism that was badly thought out and poorly implemented. It meant that the heel would shatter and either prerelease when skiing or leave you miles from home with a semi skiable binding. In fact their problem is and has been too much use of plastic. Thankfully now largely cured in the toe piece.
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| Didn't plum have problems with screw heads shearing off? I would consider this a far greater risk. |
So they say on TGR - no French issues that I know off so I guess it was fat mercans overloading their gear. Not great either, perhaps something Plum should have considered when targeting that market. A warning, as was said above not to buy initial versions of any product.
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People stock dynafit binding bits in most ski areas, Plum haven't got the same supply/service network, esp. here in Austria. |
It is an important consideration.
> they're definitely catering to the expanding market but I'm not sure that makes them marketing lead
Putting a plastic piece between heel and toe to make a binding a "freeride binding" that serves absolutely no purpose according to a Dynafit test rider or marketing a "freeride" version of their binding complete with their test rider hucking cliffs in publicity shots that is actually weaker by design than the basic speed binding then telling people "oh its not designed for freeride use" despite the marketing, suggests a company that has departed somewhat from its roots and is marketing led. To me. YMMV.
All that said, if I were buying a Tech binding today I would probably go for the Radical Speed due to the ease of use and price.
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You know it makes sense.
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davidof,
Yes I have two sets of radicals, one has the pin (which I've had replaced with an updated pin, but as a precaution not because it broke) and the other is the updated anti- rotational heel design. I understand this problem was caused by people rotating the heel piece in the wrong direction. So user failure rather than the other problem i.e. the stress failure of the metal heel lift to break off (which may also have been caused by fat Americans / Austrians). As I understand it these new model teething problems have now been sorted on the radical.
I sometimes use my skis on piste (skiing with friends & family who don't ski tour) so went for the crappy tech brakes.
In the last part of your post are you talking about the Dynafit Beast?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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DB, no he is talking about the Vertical FT and Radical FT. Both of which have a useless bit of plastic as a "stiffener". The latter even claims to lock.
But it seems a bit silly (and dated given the age of the Vertical FT) in light of the developments in both boots and bindings they've made over the last couple of years. Granted if you're not in a demographic interested in them then its not so exciting and might seem frivolous.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| meh wrote: |
But it seems a bit silly (and dated given the age of the Vertical FT) in light of the developments in both boots and bindings they've made over the last couple of years. Granted if you're not in a demographic interested in them then its not so exciting and might seem frivolous. |
'
Well we can only judge on what has been but the record over the last dozen years is not great, and not just Dynafit but too many touring products marketed that have had major teething problems like skiers are supposed to be beta testers. The Naxo binding was another example that I can think of but there are others.
Dynafit were happy to sit on their back bottoms for the 25 years their patents lasted and have really only woken up since they've had competition. Things are finally looking up with more metal in the bindings and less fragile plastic. Their initial "stab" at boots was a bit of a nightmare but things have come good since they got a proper boot designer and moved to the silicon valley of ski boot production in Italy.
So no, it is not "a bit silly" but having confidence that the products are fit for purpose and the company is committed to that is important. I've been using Tech bindings for 15 years and became a bit frustrated with the lack of progress from Dynafit despite the feedback we were giving them. I'm not someone who has found "tech religion" over the last couple of years and even in that timeframe we've had the Radical issues:-
and the problems were a design issue and use of fragile plastics.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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davidof,
As you say they all have their problems. (e.g. my fritschi's freerides practically exploded and left me picking up the pieces)
Dynafit has not been perfect but weighing up everything I haven't seen a better option. Using different toes and heels Dynafit/plum is even more expensive isn't it?
Although we are having a very "exciting" talk about the lighter end of the touring binding market and having a peeing contest as to who has been using Dynafits for the longest (Only toured 10 seasons, 3 on dynafit); I suspect the OP is interested in the more robust & heavier end of the market. Do you see anything better than marker? The Fritschi Vipec has potential but will probably go through teething problems as every other touring binding. The beast might be the best option but at a cost and aren't they already on version 2 after just one season plus it has boot compatibility problems.
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DB, AFAIK next years model hasn't changed apart from the RRP coming down. There is an additional $100 cheaper 14RV version which uses a Radical toe on a turntable. The Radical then keeps the elasticity in the heel it gained this year and has the rotating toe for further elasticity. The Vipec looks good but also has some problems, user error related, with the fiddly setting up of the front pins for some boots going wrong which is pretty fatal for the toe piece.
More robust is a bit of a dodgy description IMO but the F10/12/Duke is definitely heavier. From the OPs description I think the recommendations up-thread have pretty much nailed it. Particularly from a cost of transition POV switching to tech bindings when you don't do much touring is kinda silly.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Not a pissing competition just some background as to my experience with the tech system; about 60 to 70 days skiing per season. It is a lot of experience. Five years ago most people on snowheads where mocking the whole concept and raving about bindings like the Marker Duke now they've got that "tech religion" thang. And yes, for my sins I did ski a decade on Fritschis, Old Markers and other similar bindings but we didn't even carry beacons back in the day. Things move on. I've even binned my avalanche cord.
For the OP certainly not The Beast, I'm not really sure who it is aimed at beyond pro freeriders with deep pockets who want to say they use a tech binding system. That's my opinion. I would sooner use a Marker Baron I think. It is a solution to a problem that doesn't really exist for most people. Yes I know Charles has some, maybe it is the solution for his skiing.
As for the Duke's or Guardians, what are they, 3kgs a pair, talk about sucking the joy out of ski touring. I'm not really convinced about the whole "alpine binding ski touring thing". Have two pairs of skis, one with a proper lightweight touring binding the other with alpine bindings. The old "oooh I canna make up me mind, maybe when I'm oot I'm going to be tempted by that wee bit of powder o'er yon hill" it not the way to be planning your skiing and when it comes down to it few people use the supposed flexibility they have. Touring gear is expensive, hammering it on the piste is not a good idea.
So for the OP, if he must, Barons or Freerides.
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davidof, IMO the Beast sits next to the Dukes and Guardians of this world but offer something that is lighter and far superior for the uphill bit than any of the frame bindings. Apart from being quite expensive (even more so if you have to buy boots!) it outshines them in pretty much every way. My other skis have Radical STs on them and are perfectly up to 90% of my skiing including jumping off stuff and skiing hard as long as the snow is reasonably soft. I'm also quite fit and we ski at a much lower altitude than in the Alps (it's not uncommon to start/end at sea level) both of which help with heavier kit. I'm also one of the silly people that hammers their touring gear on the piste and the Beast is a massive improvement for dampening the vibrations you get doing that in regular tech bindings!
I don't think I've been on Snowheads for five years though. 
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I pretty much agree with meh.
The Beast is the best "heavy" binding out there (circa 2kg/pair). Cons = Cost and boot compatibility issues. As with dynafit / plums you are not lifting part of the binding with every stride and the pivot point tends to be better positioned for the stride on tech bindings. This would be a binding you could used for freeriding, onpiste and touring.
The Marker F10/F12 is next up on the list. It's a similar weight to the beast, less than the guardian (3kg/pair) and skis better than the fritschi freerides / eagle type binding. Lateral stiffness is much better than the freerides.
http://www.wildsnow.com/379/backcountry-skiing-binding-flex-tests/
Onto the lightweights - yes if you don't need / want brakes the Dynafit speeds are great otherwise Radical ST (not FT = agree the plastic under the foot does nothing other than hinder the crampon function). If money was no option then as you say dynafit toes and plum rears might be the ultimate solution. Still not happy to use plum myself at the moment as getting hold of spares could be a problem here in Austria (trying to find someone who would sell them in the first place was hard enough) Cons = not a freeride binding and on hard pistes the vibrations are enough to shake your contact lenses out.
I've read the guardian has boot compatibility issues too and don't see what the Guardian offers over the Marker Tours to justify 50% (1Kg) more weight. Perhaps someone can enlighten me.
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Dynafit (or Plum) - for proper ski touring.
Market (or Guardian) - for freeride / lift serviced.
in reality however most punters don't want to buy multiple pairs of kit / boots / skis.
so end up with the compromise option of marker f12s / fritschi diamir / naxos <etc>
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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DB, will be interesting what people say about the G3 Ion and Radical 2 as they should lose a lot of the cons that regular tech bindings have without going overboard.
I still fancy a Speed Radical/Nunataq setup.
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FAQ
