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Irresponsible skiers in Chevalier Couloir?

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
PJSki wrote:
abc wrote:
That looks quite steep, to be climbing without protection!


It's only 50 degrees, my stairs are 42. Protection isn't needed unless you are a giant pussy. Crampons and ice axes are all you need.

People occasionally fall off from stairs too. But the drop are usually only less than 10m, rather than 100m.

Also, those skiers don't appear to be using ice axe, though I could be wrong
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abc, the linky says ice axes and crampons are a must for the couloir (so not exactly a walk in your ski boots rolling eyes ) and I am pretty sure that both people in the pic are carrying axes - the shafts are stuck into the snow

a 50 degree sustained snow slope sounds like a perfectly reasonable place to practice new climbing skills.

the behaviour of the skiers sounds like some local bro brahs acting obnoxiously because they think that being half decent skiers and local and having someone carrying a camera with them entitles them to act that way.. which it doesn't
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Arno wrote:

a 50 degree sustained snow slope sounds like a perfectly reasonable place to practice new climbing skills.


Unless it's an easily accessed couloir that's likely to get skied. You ask for trouble when you park yourself in somewhere like that.
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Not being a climber, I never would have imagined climbers clashing with skiers.

I thought what's skiable would be too easy for climbers. And the kind of "wall" I typically see climbers hang from are way too steep to ski down!

I can see their path could occasionally overlap. But I always thought that would be a relatively small chance. Now I wonder how often this kind of conflicts occur?
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abc, steep skiing intersects with the easier end of winter and alpine climbing.
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PJSki wrote:
Arno wrote:

a 50 degree sustained snow slope sounds like a perfectly reasonable place to practice new climbing skills.


Unless it's an easily accessed couloir that's likely to get skied. You ask for trouble when you park yourself in somewhere like that.


no arguments there. sounds like they were badly advised. however, i can't take the side of the skiers here. others' safety takes precedence over photoshoots every time, even if those others aren't as rad as you (by "you" I don't mean you personally)
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abc wrote:
Not being a climber, I never would have imagined climbers clashing with skiers.

I thought what's skiable would be too easy for climbers. And the kind of "wall" I typically see climbers hang from are way too steep to ski down!


I'm much more of a climber than a skier. The point of climbing a couloir like this is not so much the technical challenge (obviously there is very little)but much more of gaining mountaineering skills and experience needed to climb big mountains in unpredictable conditions
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Arno wrote:
the behaviour of the skiers sounds like some local bro brahs acting obnoxiously because they think that being half decent skiers and local and having someone carrying a camera with them entitles them to act that way.. which it doesn't


Yes, you are correct Arno. The first one coming down shouted at us how stupid we were to climb this coloir. He said he was from Chamonix, implicitly stating he knew what he was doing and we did not. I think he was very well aware that he had done something terribly wrong and was just trying to blame us for the fault instead of admitting it to himself.

Sound like some of you got the impression that only our lead climber took a ride. All four of us took a ride. I was at the back clearing protections as we climbed. When I saw the avalanche coming i plunged my axes as hard as I could into the snow and just focused on holding on. I could hold on for a couple of seconds before the snow below me was also taken by the avalance. I guess i took about 5-7 seconds before the rope tightened and a some more seconds before the avalanche had passed. The coloir is steep, and our rope was well protected. I dont think there was any chance of getting buried by that avalanche. The danger is to hit someting in your fall or the get hit by stones, ice or even ice axes within the avalance. We were definitely lucky to get through without injuries.

Before the avalance came we had good snow conditions with 10-20cm loose snow on top and hard snow below to get grip with our crampons. After the avalanche everything was soft and that is the main reason that it took us very long time to finish the climb.

Agree that it would have been better if it was possible to hear about the incident from both sides. Still I am pleased to hear that most of you agree that the skiers acted very irresponsible. For my part I will just make sure that the next time I go climbing I am not going to take a route, there by any chance is conflicting with routes of off piste skiers.
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PJSki wrote:
It's only 50 degrees, my stairs are 42. Protection isn't needed unless you are a giant pussy. Crampons and ice axes are all you need.


That's a silly generalisation. If there is hard snow/ice, there's no way in the world crampons and ice axe are going to allow you to stop a fall on a 50 degree slope. It's apparent that only being roped stopped these guys falling a significant distance in the avalanche triggered by ****-wit skiers.


Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Tue 4-02-14 7:07; edited 1 time in total
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abc wrote:
Not being a climber, I never would have imagined climbers clashing with skiers.


e.g. http://www.steepscotland.info/ben_nevis/ describes various routes which are skiable if snow-filled and not necessarily easy climbs in hard snow/ice.

It's common for climbers to climb up "snow plods" (winter skills have to be acquired somewhere). And for more experienced climbers to use them as descent routes.
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dogwatch wrote:
PJSki wrote:
It's only 50 degrees, my stairs are 42. Protection isn't needed unless you are a giant pussy. Crampons and ice axes are all you need.


That's a silly generalisation. If there is hard snow/ice, there's no way in the world crampons and ice axe are going to allow you to stop a fall on a 50 degree slope. It's apparent that only being roped stopped these guys falling a significant distance in the avalanche triggered by ****-wit skiers.


There wasn't any hard snow or ice on the day in question.
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^

Well how would you know that? You weren't there. You've said you've never skied the route. How would they know conditions higher up the gully? Apart from which, you are ducking the question of what actually happened, which was that there were prevented from being swept down the gully in an avalanche by that rope that nobody except a "giant pussy" would use.
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I read he report written by the climbers.
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Keyboard hero bitching aside, isn't the basic point that it's poor form to kick snow or rocks down on people?

Is anyone here actually saying they'd kick a cornice down onto climbers deliberately? It sounds a lot like is what happened here. Someone local should have words with those morons, skiers/ borders/ climbers - the mountain doesn't care.
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Last time I checked, it was against the law to cause an avalanche.
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I speak as a climber and a skier.
No one has right of way.
No one should intentionally endanger another.
No one in their right mind would upset someone with an ice axe.

It's a big mountain, there is room for everyone.
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jbob wrote:
It's a big mountain, there is room for everyone.


Have you spent much time in Chamonix before? wink
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Serriadh, I've lived here in the winter for 9 years!
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Poor form from the skiers, they should've waited, even if it meant waiting an hour. If that isn't practical, then come again another day, the couloir isn't going anywhere.

I do also think that given that the Gigord Couloir is just a bit further along the ridge and far less likely to skied (can only be accessed from the bottom) then maybe that is where the guides consulted should've pointed the climbers - conditions depending....Or maybe the guides have just become used to crossing paths with steep skiers and so it didn't occur to them!
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Annoying for the skiers to find climbers in the couloir they wanted to ski, BUT totally unacceptable and dangerous behavior to cause the avalanche after contact was made and ski down in such an aggressive manner.
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Yup, in snow you can comfortably climb quite steep pitches in total safety, it is very difficult to actually fall on such terrain.
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Quote:

Last time I checked, it was against the law to cause an avalanche.


It's against French criminal law to put the lives of a 3rd party in danger by your actions. If there had been injuries (or worse) the skiers would have been liable criminally. Ref: Ski instructor with group sking above another group and triggering avalanche above Orelle. He got a years suspended prison sentence. Food for thought before you act recklessly ...
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Idris wrote:
What were they doing climbing the Chevalier Couloir in the first place? It is one of the few that is regularly skied and accessed from the top.
You can't see the bottom from the top when you ski it.
It is normal to knock as much of the cornice off as possible before skiing a couloir to keep yourself safe.
You assume no one is STUPID enough to climb a regularly skied route! If the party needed training ground there is endless choices, if they fancied a challange, next one to climbers left is not easily (you have to climb not just skin/bootpack) to get to it from above.

Once you are in (skiing) you don't have the option to turn around and go back up (unless you have a lot of gear with you than is not necessary when skiing the Chevalier).

Have any of you replying to this skied or for that matter climbed the Chevalier? ( I think Haggis and OPS may have)


Idris, I have climbed it and skied it, you seem a bit of a tosser to be frank with your comments above. The point is the skiers above appear to have seen the climbers and continued with their course of action which put the climbers at risk. Not acceptable.
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nevis1003, you have a point, can't you make it without being quite so unpleasant!
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I suspect that the British climbers and local skiers had a bit of an unpleasant culture clash mixed with a bit of photoshoot driven risk taking.

In the UK it is fairly normal to climb in a particularly polite and ordered way (or it used to be). No one climbed through, clipped your gear or stood on your head no matter how busy it was/ is. In the Alps it is a big shock to find the none of these rules apply (not that I've done any climbing for years). It is also fairly normal for UK climbers whilst inexperienced to 'climb' easy angled slopes 'snow plods' with ropes as pitches. This takes an age. Whereas European / North American climbers would either move together or not rope up at all (for speed / because it is easy / safer than hanging around in a couloir / you'd never get anywhere if you didn't).

So looking up the gully were a UK party climbing in what they saw as a perfectly respectable and safe way in a perfectly sensible place but looking down the gully they were seen by the locals as behaving very oddly indeed, doing the wrong thing in the wrong place, very slowly for no obvious reason. And I suspect the skiers had a different idea about the reasonableness of skiing down a gully whilst someone was climbing up, which wasn't helped at all by wanting to take pictures…Quite an interesting mix really. Especially when you think about the particular description of it as being easily accessed from the lift from both ends.

Fits nicely with the Swiss Cheese Model of adverse events.

Easily accessed couloir in Chamonix + Novice UK Climbers + Poor advice from Guides (it seems) + Expert Local Skiers + Photo Shoot + Cultural misunderstandings + Snow (more) = accident


Very glad everyone walked away. I think this is what is called experience.

Here's a nice video of someone telemarking down it.

www.youtube.com/embed/55n-R0bRpMA?
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PJSki wrote:
Arno wrote:
PJSki, er the Chevalier is popular because you don't have to climb up it first. if you have climbed it in yer ski boots without protection, well done you


As someone has already said, once you drop in to ski it, you aren't committed and can climb back out without any gear.



http://www.alpineexposures.com/pages/chevalier-couloir-photo-trip-report


Not particularly relevant to the thread but I met that guy in Bariloche last year!
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^ He has a nice blog http://rosshewittblog.wordpress.com/ Wink

Before everyone gets worked up : remember that we only have one side of the story here. Certainly the skiers, being the party higher up the mountain, have a duty of care not to drop debris onto those below them. So for sure - in this case they were in the "wrong".

However it would also be polite for the climbing group to have attempted to move to one side of the gully and let the faster descending group pass ? No doubt this is what the skiers hoped / expected to happen ?
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Haggis_Trap, I think Rukkan said they wanted to do that but couldn't seen an obvious safe place to move to
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^ Yip.
Seems that neither party wanted to give way ?
I am not condoning what the skiers did - as the group higher up the mountain they were in the wrong.
However its not hard to imagine they would have a different viewpoint of a slow moving climbers party refusing to move to one side of the gully.
The photo above seems to have lots of possible safer zones to the side - but it may have been very different on the day (depending on conditions / level of experience / timings etc)

"We shouted and waved at them to get them to move - and we had contact. They shouted back and wanted us to move!! We actually tried to move to the right side of the coloir, but it was sparse with good protection and the snow was very soft, so it was almost impossible to climb there. Returning down was not an option, that would have taken even longer time than to climb the rest of the way up. We did not feel safe with all the ice coming down and skiers getting ready to come down. In my opinion the coloir is simply too narrow to be climbed up and skied down at the same time. We did try to look for a spot to group together, so that the skiers could come down, but we could not find a good spot. "
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Quote:

so it was almost impossible to climb there


Not being a climber, does this mean it was hard to keep climbing up at the side, or that it was to hard to just sit tight and wait 15 mins for the skiier to come down?
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ed123 wrote:

Here's a nice video of someone telemarking down it.

www.youtube.com/embed/55n-R0bRpMA?


Sorry to interrupt the flow of the debate with an inane question but - for all of you skiing steep couloirs - is that video representative of your experience?
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thought ed123's speculation about the clash of cultures was probably pretty close. In my teens / early 20s I was more of a climber than a skier and the transition from UK to the Alps (even in summer) was quite a shock in terms of speed, pitching vs moving together, etc. Looking at that vid, I'd say it's only the top section of the couloir when you'd really expect a climbing party to be pitching, otherwise you'd probably move together, perhaps placing a bit of protection on the way if you saw an obvious opportunity. As it happens, it was a good thing that the party had been putting gear in given the avalanche.

That said, the top section is really more of a climb than a ski, perhaps evidenced by the fact that the telemarker barely managed a turn for the first couple of hundred metres!

I still come back to the view that the (relatively inexperienced) climbing party were doing something a little unusual compared to local conventions but none of that justifies the skiers behaviour. Which, as rukkan suggests, I suspect the skiers know!

To (not really) answer miranda's question, I've skied some couloirs but never one I've felt the need for an ice axe (or a rope) to get into. Some of the people posting here will have done plenty of that though - some classic (i.e., not extreme, within the reach of recreational skiers) routes around Chamonix (for example) are like that.
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miranda, never skied anything quite that steep but have skied things where there's quite a bit of slipping around and not much flow
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Thanks for bothering to answer jester and arno - I know it's a bit off topic and in the middle of a debate. I was wondering about the slipping and flow. I sometimes watch videos on here and think 'oh wow, if only I had the skill/strength/bravery to do that (never, ever going to happen) - looks amazing!'… but that video didn't really inspire the some sort of feeling… more like 'ok, wow, that's scary steep and I couldn't do that… but don't really feel like I'm missing out.' Obviously not enough of an adrenaline junkie.

Thanks again!
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miranda, to be fair "rather them than me" was my first thought
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Quote:

miranda, never skied anything quite that steep but have skied things where there's quite a bit of slipping around and not much flow


yes - that's true for me too. I was in Hochgurgl the other weekend and one day the only lift that was open was down to the valley (wind loading and avalanche risk higher up). Had to get a little ingenious to get some variety and ended up skiing some gullies. Nothing like as steep as that couloir but tight and rather vegetated - was like a masterclass for sideslipping with plenty of ducking and limboing around braches thrown in. As someone said on another thread - it was skiing in the sense that I had skis on at the time. More character-building than pleasurable really and that wasn't even scary Very Happy

To be fair, from half-way down the skiing looked quite nice in the colouir. Top section - agree, could live quite happily without that.
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miranda, there is a massive BUT with that video- which is that the guy had free heels. Which is hard at the best of times but on something that steep and that long is something else. Staying upright and in control at all on the stop bit will have been hard and scary, side slipping in a tele position will have burnt and getting turns finished after all that is admirable. So yes there was much 'flow' but I think he is a regular guy rather than a sponsored ski hero so very very hard. I'm sure he would have been much turnier on alpine gear.
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ed123 wrote:
miranda the guy had free heels. Which is hard at the best of times but on something that steep and that long is something else. Staying upright and in control at all on the stop bit will have been hard and scary, side slipping in a tele position will have burnt


yes… even with that additional info, the video is still not making me think 'oh man, that's an experience I'm really missing out on!'
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miranda, I've not skied a huge amount of steep stuff but as you get into it it does get more appealing Toofy Grin

As ed123 suggests I don't think the tele gear in the video is making it any easier.
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AndAnotherThing.., I've no doubt that pushing yourself to ski steeper stuff gets more appealing with practice and increased skill. I've also no doubt that the guy with the camera is a really good telemarker… but that video is still not particularly inspiring... maybe you and ed123 should do it with alpine skis and post a nicer video snowHead
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