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Advice about skis for the clueless, please!

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I've always just taken whatever pair of skis I've been given them by hire shops and couldn't tell you the brands, models or lengths of any of them. Some years ago, an instructor in Switzerland asked me why I had the skis that I did (to which I of course just shrugged) and told me I should be telling the hire shop that I was a good skier. So I did that when I came to France, but without much conviction (I think I said 'quite good' and did a so~so motion with my hand) because I felt a bit ridiculous telling a local skier that I was 'good'. No idea what skis I was given as a consequence.

Last year was my first after a knee operation so I specifically asked for a very, very gentle ski. I was skiing very nervously for the whole season - it was enough for me that I was on my beloved slopes again and was just focused on making it through without injury.

I don't want another year like that!

This year, without me saying anything, I have been given Rossignol Attraxion 1. The skis are really easy to turn, wobbly at speed, searched on here and had it confirmed they're a beginner ski. Was out on them yesterday on unpisted runs after decent snowfall (so skiing both untracked and then later chopped up snow) and they were fine really… I wasn't bombing along and was only on steepish red and a very gentle "black" but I was consciously not hesitating between turns, felt in control and wasn't falling over (though it probably didn't look pretty). Bit of thigh burn in the chopped up bits but I wasn't too bothered by that as I am out of practice and will be having a couple of lessons this season.

I want to push myself a little bit and stop pootling about so much. I get the impression my instructor is just not that interested in gear and is all about technique, which is why I'm asking the question here: I know I am on a beginner ski - does it really matter?
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miranda, if you're otherwise happy with them, maybe you could just go up the range a bit to solve the wobbly at speed bit?

I don't think it matters if you're happy with a ski. I changed my skis twice in recent years, once because I wanted something a bit stiffer and once because I wanted something a bit fatter. I think you know if you want the ski to do something more for you.

But that said, that ski is the bottom of the range beginner ski and you are not, so I think you'll find something you like better. Given you are hiring and know the shop well presumably, why not work your way their offerings snowHead
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sarah, thanks for the advice. I was thinking I should probably ask for something a bit stiffer. Did you find having something a bit fatter (as opposed to a fat ski) made a difference?
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miranda, there will be others better placed than me to advise but it's always quiet on here on a Sat! The stiffer made a difference at even moderate speed, they felt more stable. I haven't skied the fatter yet, I didn't need to at New Year and so I am hoping for better snow at Feb snowHead The Attraxions are very good, I had the 6 though and that was the one I swapped for a stiffer Atomic piste ski. From your description of your ability you really could get something more appropriate to your level Very Happy
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sarah, thanks again. I'm going to go up for a couple of hours once I've had some lunch, so maybe I'll stick my head in the shop and see what they've got - I never bother to look Embarassed
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Hi miranda, I had Attraxion Vs for a few years and was very happy with them - but when OH bought new skis last year I thought it was time for me to have new ones too... what I now have are K2 Superglides (just had to go downstairs to check what they are so you can see what sort of expert I am!!). I have been really pleased with the K2s, they turn beautifully, go very well on piste and through thick snow too as they are a bit fatter.
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miranda, what length are you skiing? I was told last week in L2A that my all-mountain skis (165) were too long, especially for rapid turns in the difficult conditions in La Grave, though I didn't exactly excel myself yesterday on shorter ones!

I have a pair of Attraxion V skis which I bought for £100 years ago, from a SH, and have skied a lot - I was probably on those when we skied together last year. You could borrow those if you come over here - I think they are 163. I like them, though I don't think I'm at all discerning about skis. I have various others you could try, too!

Fatter skis will be harder to get on their edges - some one-footed drills I can do quite well on my Attraxions are a lot harder on the wider skis, though they are definitely easier through thicker and/or chopped up stuff, and slush.

You need a quiver, of course!

To give my swollen, stiff, left knee (no one accident, just a hard week) a chance to recover before going to the Dolomites next weekend I've just dug out a pair of Wave Magics at 152 cms, and will ski exclusively on piste, and gently, and not all day! I have friends here this week so we'll do a bit of social skiing.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
miranda, I skied on the Attraxion V's like Pam's last year when I had that problem with my Volkl Fuegos and had to get something else or risk my life unti they were fixed Toofy Grin I really liked them and they were surprisingly good in knee deep (Boenet Very Happy Very Happy ) back in March.

Will be making sure I use my new ones next trip now that there is a good base Very Happy Very Happy

Volkls again because I love them. And slightly wider than my current ones.

http://www.edgeandwax.co.uk/261383/products/volkl_chiara_2013_womens_skis_and_bindings.aspx

Have doubts about the blingy bit on the tips - might have do find some tippex Laughing
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Red skis are good...
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Quote:

Have doubts about the blingy bit on the tips

There are some silly blingy mirror bits on my Attraxions - but I don't notice them any more!
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snowHead Ladies, thank you all so much for your replies. I went out today on exactly the same runs, now pisted. I found it trickier today than yesterday as I was struggling to get edge control at times even when really focusing on technique. Although I didn't feel totally out of control and like I'd fall over, there was a fair amount of skid going on in places/conditions where I would normally expect to have control. I would put this down to tiredness (I almost didn't go out as I was pretty tired but it was such a lovely day I couldn't resist), and the fact that I've not done much skiing yet this season. But I now am wondering if I can in part put this down to being on a beginner ski that is quite light and soft (which would explain perhaps why I found them easier when in the knee deep yesterday)? Obviously no part is being put down to being a crap skier wink Does that make sense or am I talking utter rubbish?

pam w, they are 162 long. I've found them pretty easy to turn in various situations but have not done any rapid turns on them. I think I'm a bit shorter than you (1m65) though, so maybe they are too long for me? If you thought they might work for me, it would be fab if I could borrow yours for a trial (I didn't actually check what they had in the shop today as I didn't have much time to ski, so will go in on Monday as it's a no ski day tomorrow).

Will make a note of all the other suggestions too (except the red skis one, thanks) and take it into the shop.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
miranda, I think you are probably lighter than me but about the same height (I'm shrinking in old age). I'm about 9st 8lbs - and you might do better with shorter, but stiffer, skis. Yes, maybe your beginner skis don't hold their edge very well.

I am only here this week, then off to Arabba, and presumably your chances of a mid-week ski are negligible?
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pam w, I have a lesson here on Wednesday, but possibly could negotiate a trip to LS one day before you go - my Espace Diamant discount card should be activated by midweek (we purchased it today and they said it takes 3 days). I'll be in touch. Very Happy
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
miranda, I think you could definitely put that down to them being a beginner ski. Interesting about the length too pam w, my piste skis are 162 and I am much heavier. but my new fatter skis are longer.

Good luck miranda, you have lots of opportunity to try out a good few pairs snowHead
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
pam w wrote:
Quote:

Have doubts about the blingy bit on the tips

There are some silly blingy mirror bits on my Attraxions - but I don't notice them any more!


I really thought more of Volkl rolling eyes Laughing
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
igLou, my new skis have embroidery on them Laughing Actual thread somehow embroidered into the top sheet Laughing
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
sarah, rolling eyes rolling eyes Laughing

I normally don't care, but might have to put a sock over each tip on chairlifts.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
igLou, don't be daft! flaunt your bling, girl Laughing
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Been having a look at some of the skis you have all recommended so I can have more of an idea of what I'm asking for in the shop. Some ski length recommendations seem to go on height and ability rather than weight (e.g. Rossignol suggesting a 158 for me as a 1m65 intermediate). I'm thinking if Sarah is higher level skier than me and heavier, and on 162s, then 158 might still be a bit long - I guess it'll depend what they have in the shop anyway.

I also noticed this on the Volkl site:
Quote:
The Fuego is made for women. As a women's ski, Fuego will be lighter, shorter, and more flexible than its male counterpart. A women's center of gravity is in her hips (a man's is in his chest), so women's skis are often constructed to move the skier's center of gravity forward.


I didn't realise there was such a difference between male/female centre of gravity and had assumed women's skis were different purely in being softer because we have less muscle, and because designers like to take the opportunity to get fancy with the bling and EMBROIDERY Laughing

Thanks again for all the advice on the kit - I'm hoping it'll be as effective as when Batman 123 advised me to change the saddle on my bike and my enjoyment of cycling increased dramatically.
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igLou, the Attraxions are Rossignol, not Volkl.

miranda, what's your boot sole length? Just wondering if we'd be able to hop on and off the same skis.
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pam w, 255
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miranda wrote:
I'm thinking if Sarah is higher level skier than me and heavier, and on 162s, then 158 might still be a bit long


not sure where you got this from Miranda Laughing I am no high level skier Laughing Embarassed
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
miranda, well that's not going to work! You have much daintier feet than I, clearly. My boots are size 24.
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pam w, in your natural assumption that I would have the same size or smaller feet than you as I am a bit shorter, have you read 25.5 as 22.5? I think it's me with the freakily long feet Embarassed
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Unless you are trying to carve, IMV, it'll make little difference that you are on 'beginner's skis. I hope you've told the instructor about your injury.
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pam w, miranda, I think the two of you are talking on crossed wires here.pam w you are talking about BSL but mirandais talking about mondo size I think Smile miranda, stamped on your boot will be a number like 275 or something which is the length of the sole in mm, used for setting bindings, that's what pam w ias asking I think Little Angel
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
sarah, ah yes, I'm sure you're right. It's the sole length I was after as that determines whether we can use the same bindings settings. If your ski boots are 25 Mondo, miranda, they won't fit in the same bindings as mine, which are 24.

Quote:

Unless you are trying to carve, IMV, it'll make little difference that you are on 'beginner's skis

I don't entirely agree with that. I used some shorter and lighter skis today to try to make things easier on my knees but it didn't work - I felt as though I got a lot more tossed about, even in easy snow conditions.


Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Sun 26-01-14 21:27; edited 1 time in total
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sarah, oh dear, I really don't have a clue Laughing Just looked at the bottom of the boot and it said 255. I assumed that was size 25.5… now you see why I'm naturally assuming you are a higher level skier than me as you actually have a clue what you're talking about! (I know for sure Pam is). I realise now that the benefit of having been given hire skis for free for years (as a result of working in both the French and Swiss Alps) is slightly counteracted by the fact I've just never bothered to think about skis and bindings and the like.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
pam w, oh, that's a shame but thank you very much for the offer. I will go into the hire shop armed with your recommendations and actually bother to ask questions this time!
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
miranda, pam w, Smile
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
pam w, beginner's ski = soft and blunt not short and light
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
miranda, you can still try out some skis, when you come over (or I come there) but it won't be easy just to hop on and off different pairs. Some are easier to adjust than others.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
pam w, great, thanks - actually the shop here would adjust things on the spot no problem (and I'd love you to come over here when you get a chance, even though we will definitely be in LS a few times this season and will hopefully catch you then). I know you want to take it easy on your knee before the Italy bash and so are only skiing for an hour or two, so maybe you could come here when you're back in March and up for a longer day (if you have some time off that is - I know you are also always busy with visitors!)

altis, sorry to come back to your post a bit later, but I was only doing quick posts before whilst having a food break mid-work.
,
altis wrote:
Unless you are trying to carve, IMV, it'll make little difference that you are on 'beginner's skis. I hope you've told the instructor about your injury.


Firstly, yes, don't worry my instructor is well aware of my injury as we live in the same small village together, year round.

Whilst I'm never going to be in danger of being an "all the gear, no idea" kind of person (more like "no gear, no idea") I have experienced how changing sports kit can make a palpable difference so that's why I'm very interested in the helpful advice the people have offered me in this thread.

I am - surprise surprise - a bit confused by your comment about soft and blunt skis being absolutely fine for anything other than carving. Is there really no other scenario in which a non-racing skier could benefit from having a stiffer + sharper ski? I also notice you say on another thread:
altis wrote:
carving on piste or off piste is much the same

and I don't get why you would need stiffer skis and sharper edges off piste? Sorry, these may seem like silly questions to you but it would be very helpful if you would explain your reasoning so I can understand better.

I don't really get what you mean by carving, as "carving off piste" is a new concept to me...
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For 'carving off piste' take a look at many of the thousands of videos of the extreme skiers. After hucking a cliff, or whatever, they go on to write perfect 'S's in the snow on the run out. They are travelling so fast that, even though unpisted, the snow will feel relatively hard. IMV this is still carving. It requires lots of skill and considerable strength to overcome the forces generated. They are travelling forward along the length of the ski all the time using just the shape of the ski to provide the steering. If they managed to rotate the skis even a fraction from the direction of travel they'd be in a heap faster than a blink.

If you tried to do this on a beginner's ski it would simply fold up in the middle - in effect, leaving you with blades. You need a stiffer ski to spread the load more evenly along the length and keep the ski's curve. But if you've no desire to go fast then you'll be better off with softer skis - they're easier to push around and they'll teach you better balance instead of you relying on brute force to get them back in control.

Similarly for edges. A ski with sharp edges will like to go forwards. Great if you have the muscle and the skills to make the ski work for you. But if you need to push the ski about or rotate it then this just makes things harder. In particular you need a relaxed 'base angle'. I know the bases look flat but, in fact, they turn up slightly at the edges. The bigger the 'turn up' the easier it is to move the skis about. The smaller the turn up the more likely they are to 'catch' and rip your knee.

I hope that explains it. Ask again if it's not clear.
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miranda, you might be lucky that you just treat what you are given as a 'set of planks' you take them away and you ski on them. In my situation this year I know I've done some good work on hire skis in a snow-dome, but I am now wondering if I can replicate this on my own skis. You obviously don't go through that and I think that's in your favour.
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Megamum, yes, I guess there is an advantage in that sense. Why did you not use your own skis in the snow dome?

altis, thanks very much for the detailed response.

altis wrote:
if you need to push the ski about or rotate it then this just makes things harder.


Does that mean that, when not extreme skiing off piste or actively carving on piste, everyone would find their life a lot easier (and ski better?) if they were on soft and blunt skis, irrespective of conditions, speed and slope gradient?
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miranda, the snow in a snow dome is reputed to be fairly harsh due to chemicals in it and I understand it can be hard on the ski-wax if you don't have indoor wax on the skis, I, therefore, tend to keep my own skis (which have bog standard outdoor wax on them ) for proper outdoor snow. I have asked and my instructor tells me that my own skis are also just 'planks' and that I should be fine. Very Happy
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
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miranda, I'm off skiing for the rest of the week - had a steroid injection this morning and currently have knee wrapped in ice packs. Doctor insisted swelling must be gone before I ski any more.

Talk of edge angles is a bit extreme for most of us, but sharp edges are most definitely needed on hard-packed snow on piste, IME, however "relaxed" your edge angle. Only fancy skiers need the unrelaxed edge angles, which get blunted quicker (because they are more pointy, stands to reason) and which require very advanced technique, as they get more extreme. I doubt if I've ever even been on a pair of skis with anything but a relaxed edge angle, or will ever need to!

Stiffer skis, and/or a bit longer, will probably feel more stable to ride at speed but will need better technique and more effort to turn quickly. And personally I find them easier on my knees, doing ordinary sort of piste skiing.

At the other extreme snowblades are very tough on knees. Wider skis need more effort to get them on their edges (I'm not talking fat skis here, just a bit wider). We were doing ankle edging exercises last week (e.g. traversing on top ski) and they are harder on all mountain skis than on my piste skis. As is turning on the "wrong" ski.

I saw a lot of people at Christmas, when the snow was very thin indeed and off piste really not up to much, on huge fat skis - must have been much harder work than it needed to be, but they felt so coooool....

I'd forget about edge angles if I were you and just ask your hire shop to suggest some slightly stiffer skis for you to try. wink
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Megamum, I've never skied in a dome so don't know anything about the chemicals, but if your instructor says you're just on planks then you will of course be just fine Very Happy

pam w, hope the knee settles down before the bash. My intention is to do exactly as you suggest and just have a ski on a different set and see if I notice any difference before my lesson on Wednesday - I'm under no illusions about skis being more important than skills, and know that I want to get my technique back to where it was just before injury (when I was, of course, all set for cliff hucking) and my subsequent wimping out, tensing up, back seating. Still, I'm interested in what everyone has to say about skis as I clearly am utterly clueless!
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The picture is from a snowboarding site but it's just the same.

There are two angles at the edge of a ski - the base edge angle and the side edge angle. They are different and they do different things.

The base edge angle is underneath the ski - on the base! It helps you move the ski about when it is flat on the snow and helps prevent the edges from 'catching'. On recreational skis this angle is typically 1º. For racers it might be about 0.5º. But for dodgy knees I might look at 1.5º.

The side edge angle comes into play when you put the ski on its edge. It helps you grip onto hard, pisted snow. For a carving ski this angle might be 3º but for a park or beginner's ski it might be 1º.

As for ski stiffness - I think it's all too easy to get suckered in to buying a ski that's above your ability. Blokes are particularly susceptable to this! For years I struggled trying to ski moguls on what were, essentialy, piste-orrientated speed machines. Only when I got some soft, park skis did the light dawn and I've been on them, more or less, ever since. I had to find some stiffer skis again to get through my L2 but, there, prowess at high speed carving is a must. I'd say that, unless the skis feel 'noodley' and are preventing you doing what you want, stick with the softer ones - life's much easier. If you can't feel whether the skis are restricting you then ask an instructor - he'll be able to tell.
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