Ski Club 2.0 Home
Snow Reports
FAQFAQ

Mail for help.Help!!

Log in to snowHeads to make it MUCH better! Registration's totally free, of course, and makes snowHeads easier to use and to understand, gives better searching, filtering etc. as well as access to 'members only' forums, discounts and deals that U don't even know exist as a 'guest' user. (btw. 50,000+ snowHeads already know all this, making snowHeads the biggest, most active community of snow-heads in the UK, so you'll be in good company)..... When you register, you get our free weekly(-ish) snow report by email. It's rather good and not made up by tourist offices (or people that love the tourist office and want to marry it either)... We don't share your email address with anyone and we never send out any of those cheesy 'message from our partners' emails either. Anyway, snowHeads really is MUCH better when you're logged in - not least because you get to post your own messages complaining about things that annoy you like perhaps this banner which, incidentally, disappears when you log in :-)
Username:-
 Password:
Remember me:
👁 durr, I forgot...
Or: Register
(to be a proper snow-head, all official-like!)

Dropped shoulders and teacher assessment

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I'm looking for some opinion here. Is there a criteria of dropped shoulders or too relaxed that could be made against someones skiing and if so what would that look like?

I have a non skiing teacher judging my sons skiing GCSE video - despite him having all the ski school medals and certificates and having been an extremely confident skier for the last 10 years (he's 16) and passing through the French Ski school system. They are grading him at an 8/10 which is not bad but I feel does not reflect his ability. They suggest he is not a high level and are refusing to accept the evidence of ski school certificates and medals as they are from up to 2009. Does this make sense to anyone here? If you get a medal or pass a certificate (in anything) doesn't that suggest a certain level of ability? Am I missing something here?

The objectives for the pass were snowplough turns, side stepping, side slipping, etc not too taxing and all evidenced on the video. Teacher is refusing to budge on her mark. What can I do or should I do the zen thing and walk away?
ski holidays
 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Well obviously we have not seen the video.

However there are quite a few who are already passing their first level ski instructor qualifications in their GCSE year.
Is your son at that level?
I would say that 10/10 at GCSE would be somebody who was at that level.

Benchmark off that and is 8/10 wrong?

I'm in no way disputing/supporting....just trying to give an alternative point to scale from.
ski holidays
 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
johnnyh, worth getting a written report from recognised experts - school can't argue with that. http://www.insideoutskiing.com/private/gcse.html

If that doesn't work, just accept it. 8/10 is a pretty good mark, bear in mind that a certain level of ability doesn't necessarily equal 10/10.
snow report
 You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
Well I would say he's a strong capable skier who could pass L1 (based on my experience of what is required by L1 via Inside Out).

I think I'm just angry at the way the assessment is being carried out. Some other children are getting 10/10 for other activities (rowing, netball, riding a bike) but are not necessarily athletes at 'county level' or above. So I can't see how a very competent skier with a handful of certificates and medals can be told they're a B at GCSE especially when he's done everything on the list of requirements. But as a parent I know I will be biased!

And also why the certificates don't count. I had no idea that there is time limit on qualifications these days.


Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Wed 22-01-14 12:17; edited 1 time in total
snow report
 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Mistress Panda, yes, I kind of wish I could speak with more authority than a Dad with a keen interest in skiing etc. I felt that the written assessments that he's had from the French Ski Schools to Platinum level or whatever it was he passed was enough. These included objectives that were way above the GCSE demands including the usual skiing a black run with confidence etc. So my problem seems to be why they won't accept his professionally backed evidence in addition to the video.
ski holidays
 You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
Quote:

I have a non skiing teacher judging my sons skiing GCSE video


This can't be right can it? I would be inclined to approach the examining body and ask how the assessment of a teacher with that level of experience gain says a ski instructor and ask if an instructor assessment would provide an alternative. If they yes, then could you get an instructor perhaps at one of the indoor ski domes to assess him.
ski holidays
 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
You can do a GCSE in skiing? Whatever next, a degree in tiddlywinks? Toofy Grin Toofy Grin Toofy Grin
snow report
 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
I took a look online - the competence marks are here: http://www.viamonde.com/download/edexcel.pdf
latest report
 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
johnnyh, not right that the teacher judging it is not a skier IMO, but as to what to do about it I'm really not sure Sad Fingers crossed you can sort something so that his level is objectively assessed.
snow conditions
 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
johnnyh, what you need is to show the teacher/school that a third party, who is an expert, agrees that your son is X level, whatever is required by the examining board. That needs to be independent, because regardless of your opinion and authority to state it the school will assume a certain amount of bias.
snow report
 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
8/10 is a B grade, well I never. I thought anything over a 5/10 was and A these days.

Post the video on here, you will get sound advice.
latest report
 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
queen bodecia wrote:
You can do a GCSE in skiing? Whatever next, a degree in tiddlywinks? Toofy Grin Toofy Grin Toofy Grin


This is what I thought!

Strange that the assessment is carried out by a teacher who doesn't know what they're looking for though.
latest report
 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
johnnyh, Does he race ? Looking at the criteria 9 or 10/10 is (IMV) a big ask for a holiday skier. I am not suggesting that he is not of the standard, but in my experience to get that good you need to be doing more than just skiing on holiday.......
ski holidays
 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Thanks for the replies.

It's a tough one. It's actually a part of his GCSE PE qualification so a module where the marks contribute to the overall grade. I think their opinion is that as PE teachers they can assess all sports even if they've not actually done it themselves. My main argument seems to be that since he already has spent many weeks on various ski courses and has certificates to prove it AND that he has a video of him performing the various exercises required I'm struggling to see why the low(ish) mark. So in that sense I'm invoking the expertise of his past Ski School Instructors who have awarded him the Diamond Crystal certificate which suggests: Expert turns (advanced turning technique on all terrain types). Expert short, fast turning technique (short turns / linked parallel short turns). Carving turns (route requiring numerous turns). I guess what I am suggesting is that a Ski Instructor assesses his skiing as 'expert' within their ski school criteria and award a certificate but the non skier at school thinks otherwise. I'm not saying he's Bode Miller, I'm just sure that the word unconfident applies to him in terms of his skiing.

Inevitably there has been a history with this particular teacher but it's only because I feel a small degree of subject specialist confidence (in skiing) that I've challenged the assessment.

Megamum, thanks for that link.

As if I haven't got enough to deal with . . .
snow report
 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
queen bodecia wrote:
Whatever next, a degree in tiddlywinks? Toofy Grin Toofy Grin Toofy Grin


Yes, they have various titles like Theoretical Physics, Mathematical Physics ...
latest report
 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
johnnyh, If you are near to one of the Snow Domes you could have a (senior -- L3 or above) instructor have a look and write a report, based on the link from Megamum, .............
snow report
 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
How on earth did the teacher work out how good he was without actually knowing how to ski themselves!?

I'd not be belligerent about it and maybe organise a meeting with the teacher and the head of the department bring the documentation and if they won't budge on the fact the teacher is not qualified to assess skiing suggesting an independent assessment at your cost.

FWIW I think the quality of skiing in the video carries far more weight than bits of paper that say you can do something.
ski holidays
 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
ski, I agree. And to a certain extent I would say based on that it is a big ask but he is a very confident skier who has no problem with black runs etc. However he doesn't race. But he has been skiing since he 6 and as I say has had a lot of lessons and done a lot of hours/miles on snow.

BUT you can also get 10/10 for riding your bike (see below), so I'm not sure about the standard. He has to submit a number of activities - so it's not just skiing and others have done things like rowing or netball and not at the equivalent level of a committed (county level) athlete as far as I can tell.

So for the equivalent in biking he needs to show:
Set off
Use gears / pedal
Corner
Balance
Brake / stop

On four short courses over two different types of terrain. So not considerably difficult IMO.

I therefore assumed the skiing assessment would be at the same level. You can do these things, with confidence you pass.

But yes, I agree there is a grey area. We were told and given a list of about 12 things he needed to do. These included snow plough, parallel turns, side slipping etc. None of which were a problem for him. We were told if he could do this then he'd get the grade 10 that he wanted. Then enter this teacher . . .

Oh boy, I'm so tired of this. He's a good lad and set for all A - A star grades except the PE teacher initially wrongly downgraded him to BTEC. We managed to resolve him back to a GCSE but since then she's been desperate to prove that her initial assessment that he wasn't up to the GCSE is correct. Which is why I'm very much challenging this.

He's a fit athletic, outdoor boy who skis, mountain bikes, sails and surfs, doing D of E at Silver - just doesn't do the team sports of football and cricket so the PE people don't like it.
snow report
 You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
johnnyh, I feel your pain -- strongly recommend an independant assesment. BTW -- on our local MTB track I would say that a good %age of the riders would not get high marks based you what you have above ...
snow report
 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
johnnyh, I have every sympathy with your cause. Both my kids (holiday skiers) can also ski a black moguled run if they are offered one too and I would also not be happy if that was ignored. OTOH my daughter dances, and at some expense on my part (£50+ to take the exam IIRC or somewhere around that) has just passed Grade 4 ballet as well as doing equiv, modern and tap and has been dancing since she was 3 (she has been holiday skiing that long too), yet the dance teachers at her secondary school don't even enquire if the kids dance outside of school - in fact she never gets good grades inside of school from her dance teachers. It's almost as though the schools are that insular that they truly believe that nothing is better than their own assessments from a multidisciplinary team rolling eyes
snow conditions
 You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
I think if I can fit it in I will try for an independent assessment - just to win the argument! Trouble is we're a long way from a Snow dome. I've checked some other videos online and the 10/10 score doesn't appear to be that difficult to have achieved - as in the videos which say they got a 10 are not significantly different from my sons.

The irony is I teach and so does my wife (not PE, though and not at the same school) - so I know the drill here and I can see what this teacher is doing.

I just don't understand the judgement. I did suggest that she was offering opinion rather than basing her mark on evidence, facts and skiing experience but that didn't go well - she pretty much hung up the phone.
snow report
 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
johnnyh, a video would be needed to comfirm but I have had plenty of "expert" skiers not fair as well on GCSE grading criteria as Mum or Dad expected...

have a look at this sample video and corresponding report http://www.insideoutskiing.com/resources/Joe-Student-GCSE-assessment.pdf

http://www.insideoutskiing.com/private/gcse.html#3

There are numerous grading schemes AQA Edexcel etc...
ski holidays
 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
rungsp wrote:
Well obviously we have not seen the video.

However there are quite a few who are already passing their first level ski instructor qualifications in their GCSE year.
Is your son at that level?
I would say that 10/10 at GCSE would be somebody who was at that level.

Benchmark off that and is 8/10 wrong?

I'm in no way disputing/supporting....just trying to give an alternative point to scale from.

My eldest daughter got her BASI 1 at 16 (or was it 15?). She could ski the whole mountain, confidant and competent off-piste, gold standard at GS, etc (all of which no doubt applies to many, perhaps most, BASI 1s of that age). She'd been skiing from 5. I'd say that ought to be considered a long way ahead of the minimum standard for top grade at GCSE. Somebody with an A* GCSE at French is not necessarily, or even likely, to be fluent at French (though a few will be of course) and unlikely to be able to earn money teaching French. Laundrette #1 was certainly fluent at skiing, and teaching the basics to people of all ages at a dry slope.
snow conditions
 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
laundryman, are you me?

You live in the same place.
Your daughter...my daughter
I find myself agreeing with everything you write.

Schizo...me...us...?
ski holidays
 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
And we wonder why education in this country is a mess. I really fail to see how a non-skier can assess in this way with any degree of competence, or any comparability with PE teachers in other schools Sad
snow report
 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
As a basi skiing PE teacher there needs to be evidence of the performance so that it can be compared to the LO s.
If we leave it to parents to assess we would all be 1st class hons @ 18. The teacher wants to pass a pupil so that the school gets great grades and the headmaster gets a big pat on the back. Or do we lower the standard to suit parents and politicians.
snow report
 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
skimottaret, yes, well were I nearer to Hemel I would have most certainly used your services for this. And I know what you're saying about Mom & Dad expectations I think I'm more concerned that we have video evidence and ski school certificates and the teacher remains unconvinced at his ability. The grading criteria is form AQA which isn't especially tough as far as I can see.

He needed to demonstrate:
1. Basic stance/getting up after a fall
2. Side stepping/side slipping
3. Snow plough turns/stem turns/carved turns
4. Traversing
5. Parallel turns/stop-skid to a halt

For a grade 10, 9 or 8 he needs The candidate demonstrates the ability to apply/combine very refined techniques with highly competent performance of individual, and where applicable, group skills/original ideas. Even
complex skills are applied with outstanding control, consistency, accuracy, precision, expression, co-ordination and a technical proficiency. The candidate demonstrates the ability to apply them in increasingly demanding situations. The candidate is highly competent at modifying and refining skills and techniques to improve their performance and effectiveness within the applied conditions.

Somewhat unspecific IMO but there it is, opinion, not judgement based on knowledge or experience.

Apparently we are now onto the school ski trip organiser who is going to have a look - I'm sorry but is it me being too close to this? I'm not suggesting I can make these judgements since I am not a qualified ski instructor but if it's just down to any one who happens to have been skiing is this going to be any more valid than my opinion (or even anyone on this forum)?

I guess I may have to go to Scott & Rob and get some impartial assessment . . . if I get the energy and the time to fight this.

Incidentally, and further reality check needed here but do the phrases: "don't keep badgering me" & "stop begging for marks" sound a unprofessional from a teacher? They're not things I would say to my students but I don't teach in a secondary school.

What a mess . . .

Thanks for input from SH, btw.
latest report
 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Stephen59, I hadn't considered that BASI qualified PE teacher existed, but of course they must Very Happy Given that there must be a number of PE staff with your qualfications, a limited number of candidates and emails then surely it must be within the scope of examining boards to have the relevant Video footage assessed by BASI qualified staff? Or is that too 'space age' a solution to the OP's problem? johnnyh, would assessment by BASI qualified PE staff satisfy your needs? As a suggestion perhaps it is something that could be organised through school links if you speak to them maybe a BASI qualified PE instructor can be found?
snow conditions
 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Quote:

BASI qualified PE instructor can be found?


we have one on staff Toofy Grin
ski holidays
 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Stephen59, well I would say the LO have all been met in the video PLUS there's a handful of medals and certificates from French ski school which suggest a high level of skiing ability. My argument is if you have all this and can still only get an 8 how on earth do you get a 10? Similarly how come the pupil videoed on the rowing machine gets a 10 (not sure of my argument here but you can catch my drift that some activities aren't being performed beyond a level of competency that is not clearly evidenced in the context of a video clip).

Quote:

A* GCSE at French is not necessarily, or even likely, to be fluent at French


Yes, that's my thought too. That A* grade for this module is not expecting Bode Miller or Klammer it's just a part of an overall qual and at age 16 is likely to require demonstrable abilities through set pieces (as shown in the video they have).
snow report
 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
johnnyh, I can understand your annoyance but - does it actually matter in terms of his overall performance at GCSE. If he's going on to further education, maybe a degree, nobody is going to be too bothered about how many grade A GCSE's he's got, given that his results seem likely to be very good.

I agree it's daft to have his skiing assessed by someone who can't ski - but then maybe it's daft having skiing in there in the first place as it has no part in the school curriculum. What if somebody was good at Brazilian Stick Fighting? Or wanted their linguistic skills in Kurdish assessed?
snow report
 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Megamum, yes, I think that would be fairer all round. I wouldn't be having the conversation if this was an assessment from IO skiing, I'm just a bit put out by this individuals attitude to teaching and assessment.
snow conditions
 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Medals is the way to go for gcse marks. Take it up with the headie.
snow conditions
 You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
pam w, yes, I thought that too. How can it be assessed fairly? Brazilian Stick Fighting - perhaps it's the length of your stick?

It's not a big deal in the grand scheme of FE/HE I know and it is PE and (to be honest) he's more focused on traditional academic subjects, so its not as if he needs this to further his career. I think I'm just amazed at how it also knocked his confidence generally since he had assumed the skiing part would be something he'd get a decent mark in. There's a lesson in the entire how you mark people and how they respond in this.
ski holidays
 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Stephen59, we were told that the medals don't count. Apparently qualifications/certificates have a "use by date" - something I never knew! He has medals from many years of ski school but not from last year. So they say it doesn't matter because he may have got worse since he was awarded the certificates. I'm very worried about my degrees now . . . i thought they lasted forever :-\
snow conditions
 You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
johnnyh, degrees? I'm worried about my sodding driving licence!
latest report
 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
From memory when I did GCSE PE (a long time ago) it wasn't so much about being good at the sports but being very overt in demonstrating the skill/drill that was required in a very text book way. More like being a exam in knowing and executing technique than a test of how good you were at the sport. So for example in rugby I did my test at the same time as someone who would go on to play for England where as I was a low level county age group player at best. However I was able to get 10/10 (as did he) as I could demnstrate the drill correctly and accurately, e.g. a text book tackle with arms round waist, head behind bum, slide down legs gripping them togther so the oponent can't run and falls over. The future england player had the ability just to smash through the tackle but if he had done this in the assesment he would have gotten a lower mark as he wasn't demonstrating the text book skill.

The reason I mention this is in you OP you mentioned dropped shoulders. To a lay person that could look like dissinterest and inaccuracy at demonstrating the skill. So you may be laying perfect tram lines down the mountain, effortlessly carving turns and looking nonchelant doing it but that is the skiing equivalent of smashing through the tackle. What the assesor may be looking for is hands up and forward etc.

Just a thought. I could easily be wrong.
snow report
 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Flet©h, interesting point.

Mistress Panda, not thought of that - mind you wouldn't want to take my driving test again.
snow report
 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
johnnyh,

I've done 100's of these GCSE sessions at Hemel and Welwyn dryslope.

As skimottaret said above; each exam board varies. Teacher assessment can also be variable.

Most of the "score sheets" I see use obsolete terms and really can be confusing.


From the discussions I have had with various PE teachers; some Skiers, some not; some BASI 1 /2 qualified; leads me to the following conclusions as to what a child/young adult needs to be able to do to get various grades at GSCE

To get a 10: Either a current qualified L1, active racer near the top of their age group in their region, or someone with 10-20 plus weeks on snow with a considerable mix of lessons and coaching. Can ski the whole mountain with some style. Possibly working to get to L2 before Uni / college.
9: Decent holiday skier; probs twice a year with lessons; cannot carve dynamically; but can leave clean lines but not really influencing the arc shape. railtracking. Decent short turns; lacking dynamism and my break down in less than optimal snow. Not ready to consider a BASI L1. Posture needs some work.
8; Parallel turns; linked and flowing; shorts are a bit scrappy; posture not fantastic.
7, Can turn parallel
6, Can turn plough-parallel
5, Can turn
4, Might turn
3, trying to turn
1-2 can slide.

Hope this helps; can advise more if you need; please feel free to drop me a private message.
snow report
 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
For a few mad moments my daughter thought about doing GCSE PE as she saw skiing as a banker (she got BASI L1 at 16 too). However when I pointed out that skiing would only form a small proportion of the course and that she hated most other aspects of PE she thankfully saw sense? Happy

scooby_simon,s criteria seems very sensible to me.
snow report



Terms and conditions  Privacy Policy