 Poster: A snowHead
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Is there a quick fix for ski tips crossing ? We are always told to keep our shins pressed hard against our boots but can over-doing this lead to ski tips crossing ? I'm on about parallel skiing and short turns. I'd be very grateful for all advice.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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At what point in the turn are you experiencing tips crossing, shelmerdine (assuming you are experiencing this in the turn).
I'm not an instructor, but I might hazard a guess at this being a rotational issue (as in rotating shoulders to initiate the turn)?
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Mon 20-01-14 18:44; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Look up!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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about half way through the turn
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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For the first, think about how far apart you have the skis. Obviously if you have a very narrow stance there is less margin for error and you have to keep the skis exactly parallel. A starting point is to have them about as far apart as you would if you were just standing without any skis on. Where the skis are in relation to your hips/shoulders depends a bit on your build and sex. Often it's a problem which just goes away as you get better at skiing. My first pair of skis looked in terrible shape because the top sheets had been hacked up by the edge of the opposite ski. But as I have got better at skiing my skis have looked much better. But am still a slightly sloppy skier and there are signs of an occasional collision between my skis. By contrast my wife has a very neat style and her skis always look as though they are new from the shop.
But if it persists, it might indicate an alignment problem. People who are either very knock-kneed or bow-legged find it problematical to maintain the same edge angle on both skis in a turn leading to the two skis going in different directions. Knock-kneed people find the skis tend to come together, bow-legged people find the skis tend to diverge. So if you are very knock-kneed that might as issue. It can be corrected by specialist work on your boots and/or bindings.
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My guess: new outside ski engaging nicely, other ski not on edge and skating around, naturally leading to slight snowplough, with skis quite close together and a short turn means not enough time for everything to laxadaisically pull itself around parallel, bang ding ow.
Use a bit more edge. Let the skis hang out a bit more, slalom skiing stylee.
I'm sure an instructor will be along in a minute with a better diagnosis.
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Take a lesson. Someone needs to look at your skiing. I would guess you are turning by twisting tails and not exactly parallel. With parallel skiing both legs are working simultaneously so both tips are facing the same way. If you turn you outside ski too fast across the fall line you inside ski has no time to follow it and no place to go so you either lift it or your tips cross.
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Guys, you're all focussing on the feet.
Just look up and the problem will go away - honestly.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
We are always told to keep our shins pressed hard against our boots b
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Not quite --- you ankles and legs need to be able to flex and extend throughout the turn --- not possible if you keep your shins hard on the cuff of your boot.
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And make sure the feet aren't flapping about inside the boots.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I have this problem also, so I'm interested in the comments on this thread. For me it's as I start a new turn.
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My guess: new outside ski engaging nicely, other ski not on edge and skating around, naturally leading to slight snowplough, with skis quite close together and a short turn means not enough time for everything to laxadaisically pull itself around parallel, bang ding ow.
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This seems to ring true for me. I have the feeling that I'm focused on getting the edge of the new outside ski engaged and then as that starts to turn the inside one isn't yet turning so the outside one runs into the inside one (and I tend to fall over). I seemed to be able to "fix" the problem, but this was by consciously unweighting the new inside ski, and I suspect that this doesn't really fix the problem but just hides it.
altis' point seems also to make sense though - I found this much more of a problem when I was concentrating. When I just got on with it it was all fine (relatively speaking anyway).
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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DAVID SNELL, how strange. I presume the bases and edges are well-prepared, DIN settings appropriate, etc?
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You know it makes sense.
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DAVID SNELL, Get your feet wider apart so you have more margin for error... then you have time to work out what the problem is.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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laundryman, The newer skis are Atomic Variofiber 164cms vital statistics 118/79/104 R14, whereas I have been using Salomon Crossmax 170cms vital statistics107/69/102 R15 so I am wondering if the fatter skis particularly at the tip are causing my problem. All DIN setting set up and checked by Snow and Rock. The newer skis are 2nd hand from bought from a reliable tour operator with much less than 13 weeks usage. As a precaution maybe I am taking my old skis on the next trip.
ski, Yes keeping the feet wider apart will of course help, however I am interested for ideas on what is happening to my skis which causes such a very sudden catastrophic fall which comes from nowhere - difficult of course without video evidence understood.
All your views greatly appreciated.
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Poster: A snowHead
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DAVID SNELL, Do you get the skis shop serviced and the bases ground? A lack of base bevel can make skis very 'hooky' and seem unskiable.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Kelskii, Thanks for that
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| shelmerdine wrote: |
| Is there a quick fix for ski tips crossing ? |
Yes
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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davidof, You off piste boys think of everything.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I wish it was that easy - but thanks to everybody for your help - first time I've been on SNOWHEADS for about 2 years!!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
Is there a quick fix for ski tips crossing ?
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get a snowboard?
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Pah, Monoski. 
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shelmerdine, Try a few runs with imaginary headlights on the tips of your skis, envisage parallel train tracks in front of you making smooth curves, now turn the lights on and light up the tops of the rails.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Similar to above actively think about steering the inside ski
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Spyderman, All the advice seems to coming back to :- , about leaning forward , keep feet apart, keeping the ski on an even plain. I was also wondering that new skis being wider and maybe sharper more likely to catch an edge. Anyway for Canada I am going back to my old Salomon CrossMax skis which are about 10 years old with no more than 20 weeks use, and I will report back end of Feb. Many thanks for all the useful comments!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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No-one seems to have mentioned weight distribution. At the start of a turn you'll probably have most of your weight on the old-outside/downhill ski. If you keep that weight there, the ski will continue to want to travel across the slope. meanwhile you start turning the new-outside/uphill ski towards the fall line and one crosses the other!
Solution is to transfer the weight onto the uphill ski at the start of the turn, often most simply acheived by standing up tall. then as the turn is beginning the downhill ski is free to rotate out of the way and the tips don't cross. if you can get into the habit of shifting the weight from foot to foot with each turn (pedalling action) they magically stay out of each others way........
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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DAVID SNELL, I wouldn't say you should be learning forward, you want to be centred over your skis, balancing on the arch of your foot and that is on both feet throughout the entire turn cycle.
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| shelmerdine wrote: |
| Is there a quick fix for ski tips crossing ? We are always told to keep our shins pressed hard against our boots but can over-doing this lead to ski tips crossing ? I'm on about parallel skiing and short turns. I'd be very grateful for all advice. |
You shouldn't always have your shins pressed hard against your boots, unless you're skiing snowplough turns.
Shins are pressed to the boot in stage 3 of the turn - the end bit where you're in full flex. The first joint to move in initiating the new turn should be your ankle (followed by knee then hips). The ankle movement is quite subtle but should definitely involve taking the pressure off of the front of the boot, to the extent that you press against the back of your boot a bit with your calf.
If you don't do this then your downhill ski - the one that 80-90% of your body weight is on - is going to be very hard to disengage from its edge, and hence hard to turn at the same time as your uphill ski. The outcome: ski tips crossing.
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You know it makes sense.
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Hmmmm - may i respectfully disagree to a point.
As a rule, 'the end bit' of the turn is when you've already set the edge, powered and extended through and are now moving towards the back of the ski (the stiffest part) to get the full power and acceleration of the ski which helps spring and initiate the start of the next turn.
Jet turns are a good example of this.
Now it's likely that the OP, and most inters, shouldn't be worrying about that sort of thing at the moment but I just wanted to, haha, stick my oar in. Sorry 
In theory, the initiator of a new turn for most people is the upweight, so a general 'unflex' of both the knees and ankles and getting on the balls of their feet with a commitment of the hips to the fall line. This naturaly allows the skis to swing towards to the fall line where you start to flex and compress the ski again, with foot and leg steering where necessary.
The problem for many inters is that certain things stick in their heads. This leads to inflexibility. Watch the good guys and everything is working together. There are the basics, sort of, but there's a lot of things going on at the same time, always compensating for each other.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| AsterixTG wrote: |
Hmmmm - may i respectfully disagree to a point.
As a rule, 'the end bit' of the turn is when you've already set the edge, powered and extended through and are now moving towards the back of the ski (the stiffest part) to get the full power and acceleration of the ski which helps spring and initiate the start of the next turn.
Jet turns are a good example of this.
Now it's likely that the OP, and most inters, shouldn't be worrying about that sort of thing at the moment but I just wanted to, haha, stick my oar in. Sorry
In theory, the initiator of a new turn for most people is the upweight, so a general 'unflex' of both the knees and ankles and getting on the balls of their feet with a commitment of the hips to the fall line. This naturaly allows the skis to swing towards to the fall line where you start to flex and compress the ski again, with foot and leg steering where necessary.
The problem for many inters is that certain things stick in their heads. This leads to inflexibility. Watch the good guys and everything is working together. There are the basics, sort of, but there's a lot of things going on at the same time, always compensating for each other. |
The ankle joint movement is the initiator of the up weight. It's subtle, but definitely comes before the knees, and this is a technical point that needs to be overcome to progress from intermediate.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I reckon it was an 'inter' that posed the question. I hope I am reading more disdain into this reply than was intende. One of the best drillsI got taught for this was back in the day of stem christie, I believe they are now called plough parallel, (much like o grades or levels are now called gcse's) anyhow I digress... In the stem christie as you progress the turn and return the skis to parallel lift the inside ski. If the tip lifts then your weight is too far back, if the heel lifts... Great. Now start to practise leaving the start of the upturn of the tip of your ski in the snow, as you lift your heel. Choose a nice long undemanding run, at the start overemphasise this movement, try to make the tail follow the shape of a dustbin lid. As you ski on reduce the size of the arc always keeping your tip in contact with the snow...
Probably old hat stuff that is now redundant, but it helped me.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| dode wrote: |
I reckon it was an 'inter' that posed the question. I hope I am reading more disdain into this reply than was intende. One of the best drillsI got taught for this was back in the day of stem christie, I believe they are now called plough parallel, (much like o grades or levels are now called gcse's) anyhow I digress... In the stem christie as you progress the turn and return the skis to parallel lift the inside ski. If the tip lifts then your weight is too far back, if the heel lifts... Great. Now start to practise leaving the start of the upturn of the tip of your ski in the snow, as you lift your heel. Choose a nice long undemanding run, at the start overemphasise this movement, try to make the tail follow the shape of a dustbin lid. As you ski on reduce the size of the arc always keeping your tip in contact with the snow...
Probably old hat stuff that is now redundant, but it helped me. |
Well there is certainly no disdain intended on my part. Without beginners and intermediates, there would be no need for instructors. It is however a bit frustrating to see lots well intended but, ultimately, incorrect advice. Shelmerdine - the OP - has asked if you can overdo pressing of the shins against you boot; the answer is YES. And without having seen him/her ski, I'd say with confidence that this is what is causing the ski tips to cross, as skiing like this will make it very hard to disengage to downhill ski's edge, meaning that it'll not turn at the same time as the uphill ski.
When taught to ski the snowplough, we're told to lean forward as this helps the edges of your snowplough wedge grip the snow and stop you from speeding out of control. When progressing to parallel skiing, body weight should be over the centre of the ski, which makes it easy to steer them. Naturally, nervous beginners-intermediates will often lean back away from the downhill, so instructors will tell them to lean forwards meaning: don't lean back. However, this instruction often gets confused, and potentially lost in translation, to mean 'lean forward, always'.
I just did a quick google search and found the following blog written by an instructor - nothing to do with me, but says the same thing in a more articulate way.
http://winterwonderings.blogspot.co.uk/2009/07/why-leaning-too-far-forward-is-bad-as.html
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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ben76, I'll doff my cap... Quality post. There was no disdain in anything you said
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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No disdain meant on my part either, sincerely sorry if any offence has been taken - as said, without personally seeing each individual I can only fall back to the 'average' issues, the 'average' intermediate has.
Also, ben76, has said pretty much the same as me regarding "The problem for many inters is that certain things stick in their heads. This leads to inflexibility" & "...so instructors will tell them to lean forwards meaning: don't lean back. However, this instruction often gets confused, and potentially lost in translation, to mean 'lean forward, always'".
Fully agree about pressing the skins forward too much - this is the most common cause of the back of the ski skidding out at the end of the turn. It makes the transition to the next turn far more difficult.
One question OP - when does it usually happen, the tips crossing?
If its at the transition phase, it could be that there isn't enough of an up-weight so the original turned ski is still engaged (not helped by the shin still pushing) and the new turning ski starts to cross over the path of the original.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Maybe the Skia balance training thingy might be worth a go?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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ben76, AsterixTG, A bit of generalisation about instructors, I never tell my clients to lean forward, I teach a central balance point from the very first time they put skis on, balancing on the arch of their feet.
Why teach someone to do something like leaning forward, when you've then got to then tell them to be central as they progress, surely it's better to teach them the correct posture and balance point from the start?
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Here are a couple of things to try. There could be more than one possible solution to your problem of crossing ski tips but I think these are the most likely...
Make sure your pressure is centred on your skis. To do this stand with all your pressure on your feet, flex your ankles so they touch the front of your ski boot then flex your knees and hips evenly. The key here is to have all your weight and forces applying pressure through your feet to your skis. This centred balance also helps you to achieve an even rotation of your skis round the turn.
The second thing will be to make sure your skis are both changing edges at the same time. A common mistake will be to try to start the new turn before completing the previous turn - to correct this continue to apply pressure to the outside ski until you are completely round the turn (your skis are facing across the hill) then start applying the pressure to the new outside ski as you change both your edges. It might also need more commitment to the new turn in order to allow both edges to change simultaneously; determination, enough speed and a pole plant can help this commitment. Also try changing your edges smoothly and progressively so it is not a sudden movement.
Hope that helps! If not let me know and I will give you some other ideas to try.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Often skis crossing are the the result of the tips being in the air, which is nearly always down to having a back seat stance or standing too tall. Try pivoting forward a touch and relax a bit (as I always say to the kids take a goal keeper stance) next time your out and see if that helps at all.
The key thing is to ensure the front of the ski is pressed firmly, but not tightly, into the snow as this is the bit that gives you most of your control. And if it's flapping about then it's like driving with your hands off the wheel. This can be more difficult in turns as most folk naturally want to twist the body which distorts where the pressure is going. So try some drills with your hands on your knees to restrict this.
This may have already been said but other posters are getting a bit technical. I like to keep things simple for learners 
Hope that helps and let us know how you get on.
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