 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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pam w, right, but I believe the Austrian Alpine Club insurance is open to non-residents, as are at least some of the Federation policies in the Spanish Pyrenees. Also, even though I don't know if my particular one is open to non-residents, it does permit me to ski anywhere in the Pyrenees (ie including two countries in which I'm not resident) as well as in Spain. I know very little about the French ones though.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Flet©h wrote: |
| ...It is in no way the same thing, one is a speculative bet that something unlikely may happen, one is insurance (duh) incase something unlikely does happen. |
I'm not sure who said anything was "the same thing"; perhaps that was the voices in your head?
One key point from Prospect theory is that people asymmetrically deal with the risks of gains and losses, and also set their "reference point" in ways which aren't necessarily what you'd expect.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Pyremaniac, Yep there is even a UK branch of the AAC! http://aacuk.org.uk/ Covers you for all mountain activity, not just skiing and is quite an active outdoors club as well.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
I'm not sure who said anything was "the same thing"; perhaps that was the voices in your head?
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He implied that people who take insurance would logically play the lottery since they are the same
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One key point from Prospect theory is that people asymmetrically deal with the risks of gains and losses, and also set their "reference point" in ways which aren't necessarily what you'd expect.
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Maybe - but in the lottery vs skiing medical insurance scenario they deal with the risks in exactly the way you would expect. If an individual chooses not to play the lottery and therefore cannot win the impact of the risk is zero, their life continues exactly as it was before. The probability that they won't win is 100% but the impact is zero. But if an individual chooses to go skiing the risk is that they may be injured skiing and have to pay a large bill for rescue, treatment and repatriation this is different, the probablity is small but not insignificant. The risk the injury rate for skiing is 0.9
per 1000 days which is low but not insignificant but the imact could be life changing, most people could not lose £10k+ and feel no pain.
So which risks do you chose to mitigate against? The lottery will cost you £1 to mitigate against a zero impact risk and even then you have only increased you chances from 0 to 1:13,000,000; the skiing injury will cost you ~£20/30 to mitigate against an unlikely but high impact event.
Prospect theory says that people asymmetrically deal with different probablities of risk or loss, but nothing about the relationship between unrelated risks and losses so throwing it in here just seems like trying to dazzle people with science.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I normally use the SCGB insurance, apart from one year recently, because as far as I can see it has the most unambiguous wording when it comes to off piste, which all of my trips involve.
However a friend of mind yesterday, said he recently insured through Snowcard taking what they describe as their "Slack Country" option. That was a new expression to me but it is explained on their website where they specifically mention the links between pistes for example, which seems just like the limited off piste cover, that some people are looking for. It seems that it might well be worth checking out for some, however do read the caveats at the bottom regarding avalanche warnings.
My friend also had a minor heart op last year to correct an irregular heartbeat and most insurers would only insure him at a significant premium. Snowcard were prepared to insure him at no extra premium, on the condition that that they would not pay out, for anything that might arise from his previous heart problem. He was happy with that as he has total confidence in his medical condition so he went ahead.
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| davkt wrote: |
| Pyremaniac, Yep there is even a UK branch of the AAC! http://aacuk.org.uk/ Covers you for all mountain activity, not just skiing and is quite an active outdoors club as well. |
The AAC insurance terms are very good, there is no quibbling about what is off piste, or requiring you to check the conditions with the lift company or anything like that. If you get injured skiing, ski touring, climbing or hiking in the mountains you are covered. Period. They cover all rescue costs. The only "gotcha" is that the medical cover is limited to €15k. If you are in Europe and have an EHIC card then this should be fine (if you read the details the reason they offer any cover at all is to allow you to use private clinics in a resort for less serious injuries, for serious injuries you will want to be taken to a state hospital anyway, and that is where the EHIC comes in). For travel outside Europe this will almost certainly be inadequate, for N America it is no use at all.
The AAC cover is not travel insurance though, but if you have some travel cover already (e.g. through a credit card) or if you want total no-quibble cover for skiing/climbing/hiking then it makes a sensible addition.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Tue 21-01-14 13:53; edited 1 time in total
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My friend also had a minor heart op last year to correct an irregular heartbeat and most insurers would only insure him at a significant premium. Snowcard were prepared to insure him at no extra premium, on the condition that that they would not pay out, for anything that might arise from his previous heart problem. He was happy with that as he has total confidence in his medical condition so he went ahead.
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For pre-existing conditions I'd also take a look at http://www.nowicantravel.co.uk/
My employer provided travel cover through their parent company (a perk I don't have anymore, sadly), the cover and customer service was excellent. I'd suggest calling them rather than accepting a quote on the site, a friend saved a lot of money just by phoning them up. They offer cover for people without medical issues too and the off piste cover was pretty good (although personally I'd still keep AAC membership too).
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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MPI didn't load my premium for a pre-existing condition. That's an interesting website too, though. Thanks sah.
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Many guiding outfits will require customers to have insurance. This is because if an uninsured client needs helicopter rescue from backcountry, it can be very messy situation for guide.
Off piste in Europe is different concept to US where you are always on secured in-bound slopes and physically not allowed out of bounds except under specific conditions in certain places. I don't think abc, fully gets concept of European backcountry where slopes are not avalanche or otherwise secured, and something as trivial as a sprained knee may require helicopter rescue with average cost of 8000 euros to save your life. 40 euros for an annual multitrip policy for me is well worth it.
Obviously if I was just going to be playing between the pistes I agree I wouldn't be arsed with it
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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If you are injured in backcountry in Europe ain't no bloodwagons or snowcats to get you down mountain. It's helicopter or nothing. If it's foggy you might be in real bother
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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sah, Yep, for me AAC is just something as a top up for SnR and the likes that will be readily accepted in the mountains without fuss and as you say for use in private medical clinics as I've been caught out of pocket by a £250 excess when I tore my calf muscle in L2A, would only have been about £50 if I'd been an AAC member then.
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| peanuthead wrote: |
| If you are injured in backcountry in Europe ain't no bloodwagons or snowcats to get you down mountain. It's helicopter or nothing. If it's foggy you might be in real bother |
If the heli can't fly, there's no need for insurance to pay for it, is there? 
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You know it makes sense.
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abc, hazards of backcountry skiing in bad weather
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| peanuthead wrote: |
| abc, hazards of backcountry skiing in bad weather |
What makes you think the same is any easier in north America?
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Poster: A snowHead
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Cos nearly eveywhere in N Am has clearly marked resort boundaries you are definitively not allowed to cross, and so doesn't even allow you get to backcountry. Prettu much all skiing, on-trail and "off-trail" in NAm is done on in-bounds patrolled secured slopes. It is completely different. There are no boundaries or fences around resorts here and certainly no-one stopping you accessing dangerous out of bounds terrain. The resort in Europe has no responsibility to provide free rescue if you have a mishap. You are strongly advised to have some sort on insurance to pay for helicopter rescue by mountain insurance.
(I am sure no different situation in NAm if you skin up a mountain yourself away from confines of resort and suffer incident, which is of course something many people do do, or if you exit the resorts that allow you access the backcountry through the designated gates, though to my understanding there are conditions here including being properly equipped; don't know what rescue situation is there and if they ask re insurance)
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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abc, have you ever skied off piste or backcountry in either Europe or N America?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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It's been discussed at some length early in this very thread what the situation in North America is. May I suggest you read before you post?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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peanuthead
If you are injured in backcountry in Europe ain't no bloodwagons or snowcats to get you down mountain. It's helicopter or nothing. If it's foggy you might be in real bother
Our guide last week said a few years ago he was with a group and one guy sprained his knee or something. Heli came - then fog rolled in. Heli stayed for a few mins then had an urgent call for a neck injury elsewhere. Heli came back hours later, still foggy. Circled for a few mins, dog cleared enough to drop a medic and take up the injured guy. Then the fog came back and the heli left, leaving the medic on the ground with no skis! Now it was getting quite dark and the guide had to get the medic off the mountain thru deep powder with no skis! Illustrates that reasonably small injuries can turn into nasty situations quite quickly.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Must have been some savage bill for that. I hope guy was insured
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I just recently did some research on this for myself and found that the best insurers with the least restrictive off-piste clauses were Insure and Go: http://www.insureandgo.com and MPI Brokers: http://www.mpibrokers.com The price for a full season insurance was within a few quid the same for both. Insure and Go offered a better level of cover while MPI had the least restrictive conditions: "Many policies either exclude this or limit skiing ‘off piste’ to be with a guide. It is our view that this is impractical as one can ski ‘off piste’ unwittingly and in certain circumstances it is possible to ski on a ‘pisted’ run which is designated ‘off piste’. It is due to this type of confusion that there is no such exclusion of limitation in this policy. There is however, a
general requirement common to all insurance to behave in a reasonable and sensible manner." Hope this helps.
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chrisdsgreen, thanks for the info. Do they cover touring too? Do either mention avalanche level - some policies look OK but won't cover off piste if the avalanche level is 3 or above.
I have yet to find any policy that is as unrestrictive as the AAC UK cover (within the bounds of reason there are no restrictions - it covers off piste, ski touring, climbing, etc), although that is not a general purpose travel insurance so it's not really comparing like with like.
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We went into this whole debacle at length last year and one person (sorry, I forget who) actually was good enough to get an in-depth response from one of the leading lights in the ski insurance industry about some of the issues. If you really want to know more about ski insurance that string was pretty comprehensive, certainly more so than most of the above. At the end of the day the best off piste insurance is going with some really clued up, well equipeed, experienced, trained mates or local guides - everything else is a 'nice to have' since on the spot survival trumps everything else 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I've always taken carte/carre neige (or equivalent) in France as well as my UK insurance. Last week one of our group was injured off piste, we managed to get him to the nearest piste (not because he wasn't insured but to make it easier to get him rescued). The pisteurs seemed equally as interested in his insurance as they were in his injury. Having carte neige made it so much simpler, they just took a few details and took him down by skidoo. They were aware that the accident occured off piste. For the sake of 2/3 euros per day extra I'd rather not have any extra hassle if injured.
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RattytheSnowRat, it was me who contacted Michael Pettifer at MPI. We had an in-depth email exchange about off-piste.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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FAQ
