 Poster: A snowHead
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So I gather this type of this may well have be covered before but I think I'm still none the wiser.
Am heading out to L2A soon and am looking to buy some insurance. In the past, although I have limited experience I think I advanced quite well as a skiier and have previously covered some 'heavily off piste' areas. I am no expert at all, but even if its just darting between runs through the trees or slipping off the side of the piste for small jumps or make some tracks in the resort confines going 'off the piste' always appeals to me, like its a bit naughty.
Anyway to the point I have read lots about not being covered for off piste, and when I went previously was too young to be involved in the booking. What insurance is necessary and what actually constitutes 'off piste' (sounds obvious I know). I have seen the carre neige looks like a fantastic idea, but in terms of insurance for general trip whats the deal. Not saying I will be going massively out into the back country but would be cool to feel I could muck around without the worry of say hitting a rock (get well soon Schumi), and being screwed.
Any thoughts would be welcomed, sorry if this has been answered elsewhere. As you may tell im a bit of a newbie.
Cheers
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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For me, any insurance with exclusions is pointless i.e. to not ski alone, to need to be with a guide etc blah, blah. It's obviously not a consideration in Scotland for 20-30 days in the season, when I'm often touring solo, or skiing lift-served off-piste alone but in Euroland, for a couple of Alpine weeks I'll inevitably end up buying the SCGB insurance which says you can just go and ski. The best off-piste insurance of course is to look after your kit, ski more carefully, don't get out of your depth, to be ski fit and to pay attention to dangers, often the least of which is avalanche risk.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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altis, the 'hazardous activities' is interesting too. Some have different ideas of what may be hazardous.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Apparently snow parks are now excluded by many insurers in the small print.
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My travel insurance only covers 'off piste with a qualified instructor'. But a bigger issue is that my income replacement insurance also only covers injuries arising from on piste skiing or snowboarding, so even if I bought additional travel insurance I'm still not covered. That pretty much rules out off piste skiing for me.
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davkt, their coverage wording for off-piste skiing is 'not alone and not contrary to local advice'.
www.sportscoverdirect.com/static/scd/pdf/VG-wording.pdf
I don't know why these policies get any customers. If a car insurance policy stated that you should say, only undertake night time journeys when accompanied by another (relief) driver or should never be on the road when police advise against it, it would be more or less worthless in the real world.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| queen bodecia wrote: |
| My travel insurance only covers 'off piste with a qualified instructor'. But a bigger issue is that my income replacement insurance also only covers injuries arising from on piste skiing or snowboarding, so even if I bought additional travel insurance I'm still not covered. That pretty much rules out off piste skiing for me. |
I never had any income replacement insurance. Didn't stop me skiing, on piste or off.
As someone who doesn't live in the UK, the whole insurance bother is always an amusing read. (I looked into insurance once but never found anything that pay out long enough to be really useful) Outside of UK, insurance are much less common and generally more expensive. Result being many non-UK population simply don't buy insurance for skiing, which means we ski where we wish and how we wish, at our own risk
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| Quote: |
I never had any income replacement insurance.
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I did, when it mattered, and 5 people depended on my income, but it doesn't any more because my pensions wouldn't be affected and kids are all independent - but it's a wise move for someone who would struggle to live comfortably if they were unable to work, so I think QB's reasoning is perfectly sound. Maybe in the US you would have generous state benefits if you were disabled in a ski accident and unable to work? 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Statutory sick pay is £86.70 per week. My mortgage alone is more than double that. That's why I have income replacement insurance for accidents and sickness.
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Mon 20-01-14 14:17; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| abc wrote: |
I never had any income replacement insurance. Didn't stop me skiing, on piste or off.
As someone who doesn't live in the UK, the whole insurance bother is always an amusing read. (I looked into insurance once but never found anything that pay out long enough to be really useful) Outside of UK, insurance are much less common and generally more expensive. Result being many non-UK population simply don't buy insurance for skiing, which means we ski where we wish and how we wish, at our own risk |
Similarly, someone from the UK, when skiing in the UK, is unlikely to have specific insurance to cover 'income replacement' and as I said, 20-30 days a season I am 'uninsured' too. However other risks are covered for us and unlike the USA where I understand your off-piste is quite restrictive, in Scotland, we can legally (responsibly) ski 'out-bounds' wherever and whenever we want in the knowledge that in any case, if the worst happens, there are mountain rescue services and the National Healthcare Service to pick up the pieces. 
But for European ski trips, assuming that you have some kind of healthcare entitlement in the USA and a passport that allows you to leave it from time to time, does that also entitle you to mountain rescue from all European mountain ranges, emergency medical care in European hospitals, and repatriation to the USA from a European airport if shit happens ? Or are you suggesting that you wouldn't buy insurance if you skied in Europe because it's all a big con ? Or are you saying that US citizens can't afford insurance (perhaps because there is no reciprocal healthcare arrangement between EU and the USA) ? Those are serious questions BTW. 
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| moffatross wrote: |
davkt, their coverage wording for off-piste skiing is 'not alone and not contrary to local advice'.
www.sportscoverdirect.com/static/scd/pdf/VG-wording.pdf
I don't know why these policies get any customers. If a car insurance policy stated that you should say, only undertake night time journeys when accompanied by another (relief) driver or should never be on the road when police advise against it, it would be more or less worthless in the real world. |
Well I don't off piste alone so that wording seems about the best going for me, and to me just seems to be saying don't do anything daft to put yourself at unnecessary risk. At least it isn't saying anything about needing instructors or guides so I'm covered when my 10 year old shoots off onto one of the OP routes she was doing with Easiski that morning and I have to chase her!
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You know it makes sense.
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^ "Sir, our policy implicitly requires that any off piste skiing is undertaken in the company of another responsible adult cognisant of its risks and we further understand that the route you needed to follow your 10 year old daughter into was ill advised locally during the afternoons because of its exposure to debris falling from the slopes above affected by the warming sunlight."
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Or "Sir, we understand that there was a local avalanche warning in force at the time, at level 1. It is clearly reckless to ski off piste when there is an avalanche warning in force".
(as per my conversation with Dogtag)
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Poster: A snowHead
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| abc wrote: |
| ... As someone who doesn't live in the UK, the whole insurance bother is always an amusing read.... we ski where we wish and how we wish, at our own risk |
I live in the UK, but I've lived around the world, and I too find most UK peoples' approach to this baffling, like their acceptance of poor plumbing.
I just do what I want to do, where I want to do it, in full knowledge of the potential costs to me of my actions. I've saved enough money over the years to pay for multiple private repatriation flights (dead or alive). These are my risks which I accept: I do not want to pool them with you and an insurance company.
Prospect Theory would suggest that many of the people buying this type of insurance also play the lottery.
I'm just pointing out that there are other perspectives on this which are generally financially beneficial over time. Just not to the insurance industry, of course
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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philwig, would you go say, hut to hut touring in Austria without having insurance to cover emergency rescue, medical care and getting you home if anything went wrong ? Do you think it could be a good gamble for abc to do the same, if she was on holiday in Europe ? To save £45 or so in a whole life spread bet against the insurance industry on a trip that might cost between 15 and 30 times as much ? Just interested ... my acceptance of a need for insurance for off-piste skiing in say the Alps is now deeply ingrained, possibly from reading forums like these from the perspective of a middle classed British consumer. 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
I've saved enough money over the years to pay for multiple private repatriation flights (dead or alive).
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Really? You must have had some seriously expensive insurance quotes!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I entirely understand the argument for not insuring against risks you can afford to take. I don't generally insure against loss of money or equipment, or cancellation and would never dream of paying for an extended guarantee on domestic appliances. I do insure against my house burning down though and a repatriation medical flight can cost serious money, as can the cost of helicopter search and rescue. £15K doesn't keep a helicopter in the air for long. I've never skied in the US but I believe the cost of medical treatment for serious trauma could be out of the reach of most of us without selling our houses.
When most people don't even have enough savings to buy a modest family car without taking out a loan it's probably sensible for them to insure against bills which could run into thousands of pounds without anybody being seriously injured.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| moffatross wrote: |
| But for European ski trips, assuming that you have some kind of healthcare entitlement in the USA and a passport that allows you to leave it from time to time, does that also entitle you to mountain rescue from all European mountain ranges, emergency medical care in European hospitals, and repatriation to the USA from a European airport if shit happens ? Or are you suggesting that you wouldn't buy insurance if you skied in Europe because it's all a big con ? Or are you saying that US citizens can't afford insurance (perhaps because there is no reciprocal healthcare arrangement between EU and the USA) ? Those are serious questions BTW. |
1. entitle you to mountain rescue from all European mountain ranges: NO. So how much would it cost?
2. emergency medical care in European hospitals: YES
3. repatriation to the USA from a European airport if shit happens: YES and NO, there's a fairly long description on when it's covered and not. Basically, it's covered under health insurance which include accident related medical expense.
4. Or are you suggesting that you wouldn't buy insurance if you skied in Europe because it's all a big con ? Whether it's a bit con or not depending on what the expense REALLY is and whether it's already covered by other policies. In the case of American who has private health insurance, a lot of the expense is already covered.
Income replacement insurance is a different matter and the calculation is also different, as others already touched on.
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pam w, Did you have issues getting off piste insurance with Dogtag? Thats who I was looking at..
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| stevomcd wrote: |
| Quote: |
I've saved enough money over the years to pay for multiple private repatriation flights (dead or alive).
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Really? You must have had some seriously expensive insurance quotes! |
It probably is. Because outside of UK, there're not nearly as large a pool of willing patron to buy into the insurance.
So the cost of insurance is often much higher and the circular effect is even less people are buying into it. Chicken and egg syndrone. Most people simply "self-insure", aka, save the money they would have pay to the insurance company against possible expense. Or just take their chances and hope they stay lucky.
In the US, there're a lot of insurance company trying to launch all sort of "insurance". It just never take root at all. The only insurance Americans typically have are: auto, house, life. That's all. I have some rudimentry "income replacement insurance" with various jobs. They pay so little it's pretty useless. My hunt into private insurance yielded high premium with not very good pay out. So I too, decided to stay self insured.
(I got a free lesson on insurance when one of the organization I worked for decided they would self-insure for their staff's travel instead of buying travel insurance at the organization level)
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Mon 20-01-14 17:04; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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your best option is the Carte Neige, this does cover you off piste and also covers your travel expenses to Hospital, also if you are planning on having your accident on the 1st day then you can get a reimbursement of the days left on your ski pass. If you are critical in Hospital and carn't make your flight home it will cover expenses for you to go back at a later date and also your family. Catre neige is the most reconised so its a no brainer and if youv'e got your EHIC card then your pretty well covered
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| moffatross wrote: |
| Thanks, abc. I wouldn't have known that a typical US healthcare scheme included repatriation costs. |
Basically, it's because most schemes (I don't know if there's a requriement or not) covers accident related medical cost up to when the insured got back home. So covering repatriation so the patient gets home sooner rather than later makes financial sense.
However, if I break my leg and it's now in a cast, I would have to fly commercial airline as an ordinary passenger in my own seat. No nurse, no second seat, etc. because it's not consider medically neccessary. Naturally, I could pay out of my own pocket for the second seat. It wouldn't bankrupt me. Its cost would probably only break even to the many years of insurance premiums.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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cockofthenorth, 'Carre Neige' may possibly be a decent bet, in France, in the French areas in which it operates, if you're not already covered by insurance. Elsewhere, it's not.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I know butTomf05, is going to L2A ?
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abc, what's the cost of rescue in the USA for a citizen, and for a foreigner ? And what about if you're nowhere near a resort, say ski touring in the Catskills ?
cockofthenorth, yes, you've brought this discussion back down to Earth. 
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You know it makes sense.
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| moffatross wrote: |
| abc, what's the cost of rescue in the USA for a citizen, and for a foreigner ? And what about if you're nowhere near a resort, say ski touring in the Catskills ? |
Zero!
You get charged for medical treatment if you end up in an emergency room (that includes the ambulance ride). But not for the rescue itself.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
Did you have issues getting off piste insurance with Dogtag? Thats who I was looking at..
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Because I could get no sense out of them as to what they meant by "skiing against local advice" (the last straw, in several phone calls, was when they told me I wouldn't be covered if there was any level of avalanche warning) I gave up. Went with Snowcard and now, because there was quite a price difference, MPI brokers.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| pam w wrote: |
| £15K doesn't keep a helicopter in the air for long. |
In BC rescue's the same as in the UK, so there's no need for you to pay for your helicopter in either place. Another zero cost.
However it costs about $2kCDN for an hour with all the stuff for a suitable private heli, so your £15,000 would buy you about 13 hours of flying time, at up to about 150mph.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| philwig wrote: |
| In BC rescue's the same as in the UK, so there's no need for you to pay for your helicopter in either place. |
That's the case in France, but isn't it only once you're well away from ski resort areas ? I think you'd get charged for a helicopter rescue anywhere you could have accessed from a resort because it would inevitably send its own helicopter for you or have a reciprocal arrangement with another resort nearby to send theirs to you. So if your idea of 'BC' in France involves any ski lifts at all, or is under the shadow of one, you're probably paying for your rescue if you need it. It's always going to cost in Austria and Italy so far as I'm aware, and I'm sure there are more EU countries in which you'd need to pony up for a rescue chopper.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Where?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
Prospect Theory would suggest that many of the people buying this type of insurance also play the lottery.
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If I don't play the lottery nothing will happen to me.
If don't take out insurance I could become bankrupt, lose my house, my family could suffer.
It is in no way the same thing, one is a speculative bet that something unlikely may happen, one is insurance (duh) incase something unlikely does happen.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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philwig, IIRC £15K was round about the bill which the family of two British brothers, avalanched in Tignes a few years ago, had to pay for the SAR. Which would have been cheap at twice the price if it had been successful.
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Helicopter rescue costs for this season in Monetier-les-Bains/Serre Chevalier are 54,60€ per minute of flight.
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Wow what a can of worms.
cockofthenorth, I am indeed going to L2A and therefore the carre neige is seeming like a good option, may not cover me for lost baggage or cancelled flights but does the expensive bit which I'm worried about pretty well.
My main hang up coming out of all of this, hence me being a n00b, is presumably people who don't insure again off piste literally don't leave the confines of the piste what so ever. I'm not talking back country day trips but , nipping through between pistes at resort level or skiing back to the chalet through powder. Surely that's one of the main attractions. Forgive me if I've got it horribly wrong, think in may well look to get the carre neige and maybe a basic travel insurance to cover flight cancellation and stuff.
At the end of the day I mainly will stick to the pistes but don't want to be restricted if I fancy a little jump between pistes or in the beginner snow park.
Seems people have a lot of trouble with this matter, and frankly I understand the definitions are hard to make clear and companies want to make money but some of the ploys and treatment of obviously loyal customers is enough to put anyone off.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Tomf05, no, I suspect a fair few people do leave the piste but are simply not insured for it. Whether that's wise or foolish is up to each individual to decide. I have friends who I snowboard with fairly far from pistes who are not insured; I think they're foolish but they don't seem particularly bothered by my opinion. When I was learning to snowboard I was "a little bit off-piste" all the time, wasn't insured and didn't even think about insurance; but I didn't have the level to be anywhere in proper avalanche terrain, and just got lucky with no injuries on solid objects. I suspect I thought I'd get myself back on piste and claim the accident happened there instead.
Actually, even now that I always carry good off-piste insurance I still say to the medics and insurance company that injuries happened on piste. (Happily I've never had to be "rescued"!) I don't know if it's really the case but I feel it probably cuts down on the paperwork.
I'm not familiar with these UK-based policies mentioned on sH, apart from having read various times the thing that pam w said about clueless statements like "there's an avalanche warning in place". But most insured people I know who live in or close to the mountains are insured through a club/federation. (I don't really know how to translate the word.) I suspect that the French policies mentioned are of that type. They're not travel insurance; they cover me for nothing beyond accidents and possibly some legal, and even there the max sums are not huge - in the region of several thousands, not the millions you see on some travel insurance. But my policy is simply "below 4000m of altitude". Nothing about guides, local advice or any other nonsense. They're designed for people with some mountain nous (not sure I can claim to have much yet, but still). The main one I've considered for travel beyond the Pyrenees (where I'm based) that's been mentioned on sH is the Austrian Alpine Club, plus the Carte Neige for France.
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Pyremaniac, If you're a French resident then the considerations are completely different - as they are for a Brit skiing in Scotland. I imagine you'd be fine with Carte Neige (or Carré Neige) and your normal French social security/health arrangements.
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FAQ
