 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Two recent cases in Austria involving 10-year-old and 16-year-old victims ...
Another hit and run ski accident on Austrian piste
http://austriantimes.at/news/General_News/2013-12-26/50265/Another_hit_and_run_ski_accident_on_Austrian_piste
| Quote: |
| A ten-year-old girl was left seriously injured after a skier crashed into her before fleeing the accident scene on the Schmittenhöhe in Zell am See, Austria. |
Ski collision lawyers ...
"If you have been injured in a ski or snowboard collision, call 303.861.1042 or email us"
http://skisafety.com/ski-collisions/?gclid=CI2Y3Ke-5rsCFRSWtAodci4Aeg
| Quote: |
| "... one of the key issues in any skier/skier case is who was the uphill or overtaking skier. The nature of the injury often gives substantial clues as to how the accident occurred, the speed at which the skiers were skiing, and the relative angles to each other ... Colorado law, and ski safety acts in most other states, require individuals involved in skier/skier collisions to stop at the scene, render aid and to give their name, local address, permanent address and identification. But do not rely on ski patrol or ski area operators to obtain this information because, as a principle of law, they are under no duty to obtain the information. Although this absence of duty is under challenge, the courts are reluctant to impose an enforceable duty upon ski area operators to obtain identification information from reckless skiers." |
A snowHeads thread from 2005 ...
Victim of 'hit and run' ski collision awarded $76,000 damages
http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?p=185062
And 2008 ...
Horrific hit-and-run incident on Austrian slope
http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=37881&view=previous&sid=ae553b1fc84c9d5347746a6cc6672319
Finally, a case from last winter in Aspen ...
Authorities Investigate ‘Hit and Run’ Ski Collision at Aspen Highlands
http://unofficialnetworks.com/authorities-investigate-hit-run-ski-collision-aspen-highlands-118875/
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Comedy Goldsmith, to stop your threads fromcoliding with others, ensure that no other thread has been created citing the same sensationalitic journalism?
That's an obvious solution...
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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under a new name, sure, like I can predict that a fellow snowHead (of quality) will start another thread based on the same article ...
... 4 minutes later? Check the timestamps, Mister Smartarse. Stewart Woodward (a real name) was doubtless composing his post while I was composing mine, therefore also unaware but equally aware of a very worthwhile Telegraph piece.
And ... while you're about it ... with 5467 posts to your pseudonym ... why not treat Tom Rowley (not me, you understand) to your actual name ...
... since you're so insulting to his excellent journalism. Why hide behind a false name while insulting someone's real name?
You see, without journalism, you might have less to chat about ... and maybe less to be jealous/silly/inferior/abusive about.
This thread/discussion, by the way, is about collision risk ... not collisions between snowHeads posters (not very significant or dangerous).
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Comedy Goldsmith, nerve, touched? Bit grumpy this morning?
If you'd been paying attention, you'd know my real name. And you'd have noticed my (I think) quite reasonable response to the article on Mr Woodwards thread.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Somebody with the first name "Comedy" is berating another poster for not using a real name. Irony or idiocy? Discuss.
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rob@rar, my real name's David. We've had the pleasure of meeting, Rob (in unusual circumstances!)
The "Comedy" bit is an acknowledgment of the comedic and somewhat shallow nature of skiing as a culture.
But collisions are anything but - I was hoping we'd get into a debate about safety, based on some of the things that could improve it ...
... compulsory ski training and licensing before ski lift tickets are punted, by ever-enthusiastic sales kiosks? Collisions are a huge concern now, and the chance of them is undoubtedly retiring many skiers who'd prefer not to ski in warzones.
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Comedy Goldsmith, I'm well aware of who you are, in the same way I'm well aware of who under a new name, is. I'M also well aware of your well-worn ad hominem attack on people who disagree with you.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| under a new name wrote: |
| If you'd been paying attention, you'd know my real name. |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| ... I'm well aware of who under a new name, is. |
So it's the dance of seven veils again. Sorry for not paying attention, but I have absolutely no idea who you are. The "ad hominem" issue, on this occasion (apologies if I've been guilty of that), relates to Tom Rowley - seemingly a very competent and professional journalist - doesn't it?
He's produced a ski article of originality, concerning very topical safety issues. And collisions are the core (avoidable?) subject here.
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Comedy Goldsmith, no the ad hominem a attack was you, yet again, criticising people for posting without using their real name. It is a process argument rather than you discussing any substantive disagreement. All from a person who use multiple identities on snowHeads, not all of which include the name Goldsmith.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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rob, obviously people forfeit their right to a pseudonym if they use it to hide ... while attacking people with real names. Isn't that a simple moral issue?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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No, not an issue at all. This forum does not require real names, no further discussion required. I find it disrespectful of you to criticise other forum users for not using real names when you so obviously don't. It is grossly hypocritical.
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Not sure why this sensationalist claptrap is being tagged on to the Schumi incident, that was a collision between a skier and a rock off-piste not two pistes users on piste.
Personally, I don't think the risk of on-piste collision has changed significantly over the years, there will always be a few out of control loonies here and there but thankfully they are a small minority. Most people do see the need for instruction and have a sense of their own and others' safety. Accidents can and do happen, that's a fact of life.
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You know it makes sense.
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Yes, I've certainly used numerous silly names on snowHeads, but never - hopefully - to attack named people's characters/integrity or work.
This got my goat because I thought it was a great article by Tom Rowley, and not "sensationalism" (the word used by our resident pen-name above) in the slightest.
The fact that a Val d'Isere ski doctor is revealed to have stopped skiing because he is concerned about the financial risk to his own family ... because he is concerned about risks of skiing beyond his control ... is something of a scoop. In fact, it's an exceptional scoop.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Comedy Goldsmith,
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seemingly a very competent and professional journalist
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Really??
Well, he
a. gets facts wrong which a 2 second google search would have avoided - the ski market is not growing but broadly speaking stable
b. he makes poor use of relative statistics (a common journalistic practice) where absolute statistics would be far less "interesting".
So if "competent and professional" = writes in a fashion so as to increase ad sales, then I am sure he makes his editor and publisher very proud.
And less of your hypocrisy over names please. You don't know me so my given name is as meaningless to you as my SHs name. Even if there was any moral argument to be made, which there is not.
No time to hang around and chitter chatter, I'm going skiing 
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Poster: A snowHead
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| queen bodecia wrote: |
| Personally, I don't think the risk of on-piste collision has changed significantly over the years ... |
Well maybe I'm lucky in having started to ski in 1959. I can assure you, without the slightest doubt, that skiing speeds have grown and grown and grown - for numerous technical reasons, plus a desire (by some people) to rip.
And interest in ski school seems to have declined and declined. It's all about spending as much dosh as possible on tech, and regarding instruction as a drag. Good skiers (of any ability), of course, like to learn to control their equipment properly.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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And I'm lucky enough to have started skiing in 1977. Skiing speeds may have increased but I don't find pistes any busier or other skiers any more reckless. We had our fair share of loonies in the 80s, with worse equipment and often worse snow conditions. Much has improved today.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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queen bodecia, I agree.
Comedy Goldsmith, if you disagree with somebody then why not discuss the issues rather than resort, as you so frequently do, to silly attacks about whether they use real names or not, which as I have pointed out is also hypocritical. Take for example, under a new name's perfectly fair points to justify his argument that the article was sensational. Why don't you discuss those points...?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Take for example, under a new name's perfectly fair points to justify his argument that the article was sensational. Why don't you discuss those points...? |
Well, it struck me as a subjective rather than objective criticism. There's a lot of factual content in that article, which makes it pukka journalism. And its most shocking revelations are a hit-and-run accident - yet another one - and a doctor in Val who has stopped skiing for related reasons.
It's you that doesn't seem to want to discuss these things, not me! I've taken the trouble to cite a few other collision cases above. Maybe we could search out a lot more. I dealt with them (with great difficulty when there were no independent eye-witnesses) as an expert witness. They are a real and present danger of skiing this winter. [Is that sensationalism?]
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Comedy Goldsmith, subjective criticism on an online forum? Shocking, call the Identity Police!
You're right, I don't want to discuss the issue of collisions. In my experience they are very rare, not often serious and are not increasing in number. Obviously if you are involved in a collision it could be a big deal to you as an individual, so it is sensible to be aware of what other slope users might do to avoid as far as possible situations where collisions could more readily occur. Beyond that I have no interest in debating the issue.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Things must have changed a LOT in 4 years..
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/7332865/On-the-slippery-slope-to-broken-dreams.html
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"I can usually tell what we're going to see when I walk to work across the pistes," says Dr Griffiths. "If it's hard, packed snow then it's like falling onto concrete at 40mph and we'll have lots of breaks. If it's slushy, we'll see twists. And if there are lots of learner snowboarders on the baby slopes, then it'll be plenty of broken wrists."
Dr Griffiths's first client was not a victim of the snow, however. "Alcohol may have been involved," admits a sheepish 31-year-old doctor who would rather not give his name. "I fell over coming out of a bar in the early hours of the morning and fractured several bones in my face. Half of my face is numb, so I have to go to hospital in Bourg to see if there's nerve damage, and if I'm going to need neurosurgery."
Dr Griffiths's next two clients were also suffering from alcohol-related falls. "It's common," |
I see no mention of collisions there, indeed, the discussion of snow types and resulting injuries suggests that's the most common reason, simple bad falls.
The same article goes on to state:
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Contrary to popular belief, collisions between skiers or snowboarders account for fewer than seven per cent of injuries, according to Swiss research. |
Of that 7% how many are a hit and run?
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So the headline across a whole page screams "'SKIING HAS BECOME TOO DANGEROUS'" and the article then goes on to say in the digital edition.. "the risk of drowning also makes fly fishing more dangerous."
That must make FLY FISHING VERY, VERY DANGEROUS.
The fly fishing line is mysteriously missing from the print article.
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That article strikes me as sensationalist and inaccurate. I'm sick of journalists trying to make a quick £ at the expense of legitimate enterprise. It's like how mountain biking is so often misrepresented as an 'extreme sport' in every widely viewed publication - it only reinforces the view some people wrongly hold that a sport is somehow 'too dangerous' for them to contemplate taking part in. There is then a big push for people to ski less, or people like the doctor quoted in the article who decide to give up the sport all together.
I would put forward that the majority of skiing accidents are in fact caused by/happen to beginners or intermediates that are skiing faster than they are capable of controlling, or during the learning of basic manoeuvres. On this basis, the safest thing to happen is for people to ski more, thereby improving their skills and making the slopes safer for everyone. Of course, that won't be written by a journalist as it won't bring the masses flocking to tut and condemn from the pedestals of their sheltered lives.
Last edited by After all it is free  on Sun 5-01-14 12:38; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Comedy Goldsmith, 1) that journalist cant even spell "skiier" correctly? Doesnt fulfil me with confidence.
2) The Doctor sounds like a muppet; he works in a ski resort and is worried because he sees people with ski injuries?
3) The Doc has not given up skiing because of fears for safety as a Dad - hes given up off-piste skiing due to that reason, apparently and doesnt ski on piste as it appears he finds it boring
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| To be quite honest, I thought it was too dangerous,” he says. “I have seen too many people with much more experience than me at reading the off-piste conditions – local guides who were born and bred here – get it wrong. And skiing on piste, after so long, is just like going for a walk, so I don’t ski or snowboard any more.” |
4) Mr Ellis sounds far more sensible
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indeed, the same Medecins de Montagne figures show that the average skier can only expect to be injured around three times for every 1,000 days on the slope, while death is even less probable: in the Austrian Alps, 38 people were killed last season, compared to around 20 each year in France.
So John Ellis, now finally able to leave his bed, will not be deterred. “We ski between 6,000 and 10,000 feet above the sea,” he says. “You’re above the weather, above pollution, breathing in clean, cold, dry air. It is just such satisfaction. So, yes: I will go back.” |
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OK, I think I'm getting the picture here: certain posters above (perhaps with commercial interests, perhaps just content with the way things are) wish to adopt a 'see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil' attitude to a very big issue in skiing: collisions. My observation and experience is that they have grown in frequency and severity enormously, over the past 5 decades.
Tom Rowley's article actually highlights the appalling experience of John Ellis, 76 years old, who has spent 10 days in hospital because of a hit-and-run skier colliding with him.
But let's ignore that. He's not our dad. Let's keep presenting a positive image for the sport, and ignore reality, for god's sake.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
| ... (perhaps with commercial interests, |
You do yourself no favours 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
| My observation and experience is that they have grown in frequency and severity enormously, over the past 5 decades. |
For an alternate view.
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rob, the (largely tourist-office-inspired, but also cultural and commercial) disguising of danger and safety issues in our sport is legion. You know it.
Social media is liberating information, journalism, and citizen journalism. So why don't we deal with the elephant in the room here? (though elephants are intelligent enough not to collide with each other).
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You know it makes sense.
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| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
rob, the (largely tourist-office-inspired, but also cultural and commercial) disguising of danger and safety issues in our sport is legion. You know it.
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I think the danger in our sport is small, but not zero. Sensible adults everywhere understand this and take appropriate actions to minimise the risk (and large parts of the industry do extensive work to help minimise the risk on their behalf). If you want a discussion about how to minimise that risk further I'm happy to take part, and have ideas on some things which could help. But sensationalism and "real name criticisms" from you, as well as implied criticism of me because I have a commercial interest in skiing, do nothing more than confirm my view of you as a skiing killjoy who likes nothing better than to whip up nonsense on online forums.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Basically the whole Doctor skiing thing is a smokescreen. We don't need anecdote from someone who is so obviously biased by the injuries they see everyday we need per skier day statistics that show how likely and what caused an injury in the total population of skiers.
That the Doctor doesn't ski is fact, why he doesn't ski is just subjective opinion of the sort CG doesn't seem to like but curiously has avoided looking at critically in just the same manner the journalist has. Presumably because it sexes up the story when in reality skiing is reasonably safe.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I don't know whether the overall numbers have increased, but I do know that since last weekend I have decided to no longer ski ( on piste ) around New Year. Both myself and my daughter got run down within a few minutes of each other. Absolute mayhem!
If collisions are what worry you then the solution is not to ski on busy pistes... a bit obvious really. Of course you might then get taken out by an avalanche, hit on the head by a rock or fall over a cliff, all of which are preferable to skiing in a madhouse IMO.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Are they not then? I have always thought that any activity involving random movement of beings will involve risk of collision.....driving cycling, walking, skiing. I've been walking for around 40 years but still have the occasional near miss or shoulder bump in a busy street. The risks are minimal and acceptable so I don't stop doing these activities.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
| What are we going to do about it? |
Spread stories and judge people like a gossipy housewife, apparently. If you want a serious debate then that's great, but please don't try to disguise the thinly veiled judgements and highly opinionated criticisms as legitimate discussion.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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And today's prize for stating the bleedin' obvious goes to...
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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rasmanisar, well said.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
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And today's prize for stating the bleedin' obvious goes to... |
I can't believe you said that. It's like saying "... collisions are an "inherent risk" of driving on a public highway.
You wouldn't sue a fellow skier who broke the FIS rules of skiing on a piste and mowed you down, putting you out of work?
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In my opinion - and it is only my opinion since I started skiing in the 80s there now seem to be more people on the slopes (when I take my ski holidays) than before and their skill level or at least the ability to fast-track to skiing pistes that are perhaps a little above their ski-level has been increased or aided by technology (skis mainly). I therefore imagine with more people and, as has been noted, more efficient lifts getting those larger numbers onto the slopes that statistically there is a greater likelihood of collisions. However, collisions in my experience aren't the only way one injure oneself skiing - avoiding collisions has sometimes got me into trouble though, without actually hitting anyone else, I have on occasions been forced to ski into a less than favourable part of a piste or to stop suddenly etc.
Can anything be done? Reduce numbers on slopes? Increase the cost of skiing in order to reduce the numbers? Increase the size of lift queues by slowing lifts down? Widen the pistes? Count the numbers going up and coming down? There's not really a miracle solution is there? Perhaps choosing the time and pistes you ski is the only way, increasing your own skill level by practice and training so you can avoid others or at least not feel forced into skiing something you can't handle simply so that a collision with another skier doesn't happen.
The article read to me as though the doctor was less keen to ski off-piste because of the inherent (natural) dangers there and on-piste was 'boring.' No sense in which collisions prevented him skiing.
Ski tourism is inevitably a numbers based business - so various parties have an interest in more people doing it. Which means it will be busier than some 30 years ago as more people try to make more money from it. I have even added to the numbers as I used to ski alone but I've now somehow added my wife and two children to the piste who I need to avoid any kind of collision with. There is no single solution or perhaps not even a selection of small modifications or adaptions, rather it is better to acknowledge the risk amongst the other risks in skiing and decide if, when and where you still want to do it. Even skiing at peak times, as I have done, I am still happier to be skiing than moaning about the number of other people skiing and the relative danger of colliding with them on an internet forum.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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The huge rise in popularity of GoPro's should help this kind of 'hit and run problem' to dissipate...
I cant imagine how anyone could simply ski off after an accident 
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| johnnyh wrote: |
In my opinion - and it is only my opinion since I started skiing in the 80s there now seem to be more people on the slopes (when I take my ski holidays) than before and their skill level or at least the ability to fast-track to skiing pistes that are perhaps a little above their ski-level has been increased or aided by technology (skis mainly). I therefore imagine with more people and, as has been noted, more efficient lifts getting those larger numbers onto the slopes that statistically there is a greater likelihood of collisions. However, collisions in my experience aren't the only way one injure oneself skiing - avoiding collisions has sometimes got me into trouble though, without actually hitting anyone else, I have on occasions been forced to ski into a less than favourable part of a piste or to stop suddenly etc.
Can anything be done? Reduce numbers on slopes? Increase the cost of skiing in order to reduce the numbers? Increase the size of lift queues by slowing lifts down? Widen the pistes? Count the numbers going up and coming down? There's not really a miracle solution is there? Perhaps choosing the time and pistes you ski is the only way, increasing your own skill level by practice and training so you can avoid others or at least not feel forced into skiing something you can't handle simply so that a collision with another skier doesn't happen.
The article read to me as though the doctor was less keen to ski off-piste because of the inherent (natural) dangers there and on-piste was 'boring.' No sense in which collisions prevented him skiing.
Ski tourism is inevitably a numbers based business - so various parties have an interest in more people doing it. Which means it will be busier than some 30 years ago as more people try to make more money from it. I have even added to the numbers as I used to ski alone but I've now somehow added my wife and two children to the piste who I need to avoid any kind of collision with. There is no single solution or perhaps not even a selection of small modifications or adaptions, rather it is better to acknowledge the risk amongst the other risks in skiing and decide if, when and where you still want to do it. Even skiing at peak times, as I have done, I am still happier to be skiing than moaning about the number of other people skiing and the relative danger of colliding with them on an internet forum. |
I agree with your comment about the rise in number of people and their misplaced confidence. It certainly is different to the 90's when I first started skiing.
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FAQ
