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"Ski helmets - of questionable value" - the view of a physicist, engineer, and on-off user

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
gixxerniknik wrote:
I've probably done more damage to my brain banging my head against a wall repeatedly whilst reading all these helmet threads on this forum


Some sort of chinese finger trap might be more appropriate.

The title says this is a helmet thread, and yet you still can't stop yourself coming in and whining. Well done.
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allanm wrote:


Yes, I hit my head (several times) when wearing a helmet ...

But never hit my head when not wearing one (prob 90+% of time on skis). Why is that?


I don't know, but I think you're far from unique in observing this. I believe the wearing of helmets is an influence on head-bangs, but this needs a lot more scientific research. I did 40 years of skiing - up to the year 2000 - before helmets started to become a discussion point in skiing, and then fake (inflated) head-injury statistics were used to sell them.

As previously observed (I'm the one-time technical editor of Skateboard! magazine 1977-8), skateboarders have very largely gone off helmets, despite taking regular falls on paving and concrete. Maybe they know something skiers don't.
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Don't have time to go through all these comments but a couple of issues that may not have been raised which are mentioned in the cycle helmet debate.
Helmets, through their size and bulk, make it considerably more likely that you will take a strike to the head than if you weren't wearing one.
This, along with risk compensation, is probably why people with helmets seem to bash their heads more often than those without.
When you get hit whilst wearing a helmet, the neck takes more of an impact than when your head gets hit, unhelmeted. It has been argued that it is better for the head to take a small impact than the neck to take a greater impact.
Generally, I'd say that ski helmets make more sense overall than cycle helmets (especially if you cycle locally to get around, rather than race at top speed for training purposes).
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Comedy Goldsmith wrote:
Maybe they know something skiers don't.


Or perhaps a large proportion of skaters are adolescent boys who won't wear unfashionable gear and have a slightly unrealistic view of their own invincibility?

If you've got any numbers to share, I'd be interested. A quick'n'lazy google search turns up stuff like this: http://www.skatepark.org/park-development/2012/01/2011-skateboarding-fatalities/

It lists 42 (US) fatalities (mostly teenage boys), of which:
- 30 involved being run over, so helmets probably wouldn't have helped at all.
- 8 involved fatal head injuries, where the victim wasn't wearing a helmet.
- 1 where the cause was unspecified (but not a vehicle), but the victim wasn't wearing a helmet.
- 2 where the cause was unspecified (but not a vehicle), protective gear not mentioned.

(and one that I somehow missed, but I'm not going back to check them again!)

Of course, those head injuries might have all been fatal even with a helmet, but they still stand out. The list didn't exactly contain a bunch of deaths of skaters wearing helmets who still suffered fatal head injuries, after all.

Edit: oh, and this, though I could only read the summary: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20065875

Quote:
Skateboard-related injuries are associated with a high incidence of traumatic brain injury and long bone fractures. (snip). Our findings demonstrate that helmet utilization and designated skateboard areas significantly reduce the incidence of serious head injuries.
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It's your choice, thats's the way it should stay.
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http://youtube.com/v/kLibP8M1ODM
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Comedy Goldsmith, do you think the use of helmets should be banned in snowsports?
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Comedy Goldsmith, Are you actually advising people not to wear helmets or merely trying to justify your own personal choice? I'm genuinely interested in your motivation for threads like this.
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rob@rar, well, rob, I don't think helmets with in-built speakers should be passed/permitted by standards organisations (assuming that they are). Anything else has a legitimate safety argument, pending ongoing evidence.

At this stage, who really knows which specific serious head injuries are saved (or perhaps contributed to) by a helmet? I think the epidemiological data is the guiding light, and it takes years for the full picture to develop.
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Comedy Goldsmith, was that a "no"?
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rob@rar, yes it was a no. Banning a product that people quite legitimately believe is a safety product would be ridiculous - I just don't personally believe in helmets for recreational skiing.
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Comedy Goldsmith wrote:
rob@rar, yes it was a no. Banning a product that people quite legitimately believe is a safety product would be ridiculous - I just don't personally believe in helmets for recreational skiing.

We haven't banned snake oil, have we?
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Comedy Goldsmith, thanks. So, nobody in favour of banning helmets. As far as I'm aware nobody in favour of making helmets compulsory for adult recreational skiers. One wonders why the fuss ... ?
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You know it makes sense.
rob@rar wrote:
Comedy Goldsmith, thanks. So, nobody in favour of banning helmets. As far as I'm aware nobody in favour of making helmets compulsory for adult recreational skiers. One wonders why the fuss ... ?

Really?
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abc, if you know differently I'd be interested to learn about it.
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rob@rar wrote:
Comedy Goldsmith, thanks. So, nobody in favour of banning helmets. As far as I'm aware nobody in favour of making helmets compulsory for adult recreational skiers. One wonders why the fuss ... ?


because some people have nothing better to do I guess. Forget banning helmets, just ban forum based discussions on helmets. would save lots of people lots of time and probably go some way to reducing the RSI for those for/against helmets.

Now there is a thought, I wonder how many people have either damaged their fingers furiously typing or got jaw strain from furiously arguing the relative pros and cons of helmets and the associated research into supporting said position.

and breath...
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rob@rar wrote:
As far as I'm aware nobody in favour of making helmets compulsory for adult recreational skiers.


Well they're law in Nova Scotia. Not a major ski destination, but it could be the start of the creep ...

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/helmets-on-nova-scotia-ski-hills-now-a-law-1.1215936
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rob@rar wrote:
abc, if you know differently I'd be interested to learn about it.

I don't have the link, but one US mountain had just made it compulsory for ALL skiers to wear helmet!

And even if you mean no one in snowhead believe in making helmet compulsory, you only need to read some of the "parents" posts. They clearly BELIEVE it should be! Though to be fair, most do understand such ban is unlikely in practice, at least in short term.
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Comedy Goldsmith, abc, when mainstream resorts make it compulsory then I'll take notice. Until then it seems like an army of straw men arguments is being assembled by the vociferous pros and antis, with no relevance to the rest of us.
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abc,
Quote:

you only need to read some of the "parents" posts. They clearly BELIEVE it should be!
I don't remember any SH ever suggesting they should be made compulsory. There were some recent comments suggesting that it is somehow hypocritical for un-helmeted parents to force their children to wear them. Was that what you meant?

It's always struck me as slightly peculiar that the anti-helmets seem to be more vociferous in their arguments than the pro-helmets who seem to be more relaxed. Maybe that's just a personal perspective.
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We were skiing over new year and for the first time the missus and I wore helmets. 2nd last day missus does a full face-plant into the mountain while travelling reasonably fast. She cracked the lens of her goggles on her nose (which needed 2 stitches). My conundrum, did the helmet stop the goggles coming off and therefore caused the injury or did the helmet save her from greater damage?

I'm genuinely not sure.

On a side note, Found the lid quite comfortable btw and never noticed it after the first half hour.
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Reading this thread is quite amusing. So far I've deduced that wearing a helmet may or may not save your life. Some people prefer to wear them as it enhances their experience and others hate weairng them as it frustrates them. Some people sometimes wear them for more extreme riding and then leave it in the chalet when thier not feeling so adventurous. Some people hate people writing about helmets, yet read the comments anyway, and even write about hating people who write about them. And then theres me......who likes to read all of the messages and arguments and expletives and leave a final thought 'Jerry Springer style'

"People who don't want to wear helmets don't have to wear helmets (unless they are the daughter of J9). People who prefer to wear helmets, can wear helmets. The non wearers are never going to convince the wearers to remove them, and the wearers are never going to convince the non wearers to wear them. So lets all just get on the slopes and have a jolly good time together......good luck.....and god bless"
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foxtrotzulu wrote:
abc,
Quote:

you only need to read some of the "parents" posts. They clearly BELIEVE it should be!
I don't remember any SH ever suggesting they should be made compulsory. There were some recent comments suggesting that it is somehow hypocritical for un-helmeted parents to force their children to wear them. Was that what you meant?

It's more than that.

Many say it's "irresponsible" to not wear a helmet just because one has children (not as a good example to encourage kids to wear helmet, but the increase responsibility of parenting should be accompanied by wearing helmets while skiing -- but not while taking a bath Puzzled )...

Quote:

It's always struck me as slightly peculiar that the anti-helmets seem to be more vociferous in their arguments than the pro-helmets who seem to be more relaxed. Maybe that's just a personal perspective

It IS your personal perspective. I perceive the anti-helmets are more relaxed and the helmet advocates quite vociferous Very Happy
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Quote:


It's always struck me as slightly peculiar that the anti-helmets seem to be more vociferous in their arguments than the pro-helmets who seem to be more relaxed. Maybe that's just a personal perspective

Because helmet wearers have nothing to worry about, helmets are not likely to be banned, wheras people like myself that do not wear a helmet because I hate wearing any type of head gear, especially when skiing, are genuinely concerned that our enjoyment of skiing will reduced by being forced to wear a helmet.

I do own a helmet, it has more ventilation holes than most, but after just one hour skiing with it on in January I had to take it off, my skiing was all over the place, it was hot, itchy, I was sick of the safety bar bashing my slightly bigger head etc etc.

With so many people on the mountain lecturing me about not wearing a helmet, it has led me to feel slightly more vulnerable and be more aware of the hazards. I wish that I could wear a helmet comfortably, so I could take more adventurous lines.

I am a risk compensator, if I wear a helmet when skiing I will be more likely to get injured, true, my head is less likely to be injured if I hit it on something hard, but it IS more likely to hit something hard.

For most people helmets make perfectly good sense as long as they do not restrict hearing or vision

There are some people who really should not wear a helmet or any other protective device, clad in armour, they become a danger to themselves and others


Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Tue 14-01-14 18:02; edited 1 time in total
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abc wrote:
foxtrotzulu wrote:
It's always struck me as slightly peculiar that the anti-helmets seem to be more vociferous in their arguments than the pro-helmets who seem to be more relaxed. Maybe that's just a personal perspective
It IS your personal perspective. I perceive the anti-helmets are more relaxed and the helmet advocates quite vociferous Very Happy


Except that if snowheads is anything to go by those who are anti-helmets seem to spend their time telling everyone else not to wear helmets (even though it makes no difference to themselves), while those who think that helmets are useful simply explain why their personal decision is to wear one... ultimately those who might make it compulsory aren't going to use snowheads as the basis for their decision - if it becomes compulsory it will do so through issues arising out of litigation / insurance / etc. We live in a world so eager to sue that it is almost mandatory now for anyone who might be sued to require you to do the maximum in terms of protection etc. - or else your claim is not valid - the blame for it all really comes down to those who take no responsibility for themselves and then hope to make money out of someone else as a result!

Comedy Goldsmith wrote:
rob@rar, well, rob, I don't think helmets with in-built speakers should be passed/permitted by standards organisations (assuming that they are). Anything else has a legitimate safety argument, pending ongoing evidence.


no choice - if the helmet meets the levels of the test then the standards organisations have to pass them by law.
currently the standards deal only with issues such as impact and the presence of built-in-speakers is irrelevant from that perspective...
the standards are not designed to produce helmets which are miracle cures - yes, built in speakers might distract a skier - but so will their ipod headphones / using their phone - or in my case skiing backwards carrying two poles in one hand and a DSLR in the other Wink - you can't legislate for all skier issues through helmet standards / nor can you say that if other issues remain helmets are worthless! A helmet does a simple job - the standards are there to check that it does that correctly - end of story.

Alasdair
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akirk wrote:
or in my case skiing backwards carrying two poles in one hand and a DSLR in the other Wink

Wouldn't dream of ever being so irresponsible.....
I normally strap my poles to my rucksack. Little Angel
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akirk wrote:
[Except that if snowheads is anything to go by those who are anti-helmets seem to spend their time telling everyone else not to wear helmets (even though it makes no difference to themselves), while those who think that helmets are useful simply explain why their personal decision is to wear one...

I found it the other way around:

Helmet wearers seem to spend their time telling everyone else to wear helmets (even though it makes no difference to themselves)! They may even use their own personal experience as supporting "evidence". rolling eyes

That's about the best illustration of we all see what we wish to see. Smile
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Comedy Goldsmith wrote:
Maybe they know something skiers don't.


"We estimate that at least 11 (26%) of the 42 fatalities for 2011 may have been prevented if the skateboarder had a helmet on at the time of their accident."

http://www.skatepark.org/park-development/2012/01/2011-skateboarding-fatalities/


"Our findings demonstrate that helmet utilization and designated skateboard areas significantly reduce the incidence of serious head injuries."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20065875


"helmets designed for skateboarding are seldom worn but will protect skateboarders from serious head injury"

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/95/4/611
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abc wrote:
Helmet wearers seem to spend their time telling everyone else to wear helmets (even though it makes no difference to themselves)!


Apart from the single instance involving parents and helmets that popped up this week, can you link any other examples?
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built in speakers might distract a skier - but so will their ipod headphones / using their phone - or in my case skiing backwards carrying two poles in one hand and a DSLR in the other
Maybe, but skiing backwards with your poles in whatever position you choose will not drown out a cry for help from another slope user, built in speakers, headphones etc will.....
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abc, I didn't see the comment about the increased responsibility of parenting means that they would be 'irresponsible' not to wear helmets. But even so, that is nothing like the same as suggesting they should be compulsory. I could as easily say that people drinking too much are being irresponsible but I'm not remotely suggesting alcohol is banned.
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Quote:

Helmet wearers seem to spend their time telling everyone else to wear helmets (even though it makes no difference to themselves)! They may even use their own personal experience as supporting "evidence".



That is utter ballcocks ABC. There are very few of those posts on snowheads and many by people simply explaining why they wear one but admitting that the safety benefits are probably modest and people should be free to make their own decisions.
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jedster, i keep banging on that it's a sensible option. Where else do you store goggles and gloves in restaurants, ffs?
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Boris has something to say on the matter. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/borisjohnson/7289457/Wear-ski-helmets-by-all-means-but-Im-sticking-to-a-woolly-hat.html amazingly I agreee with him
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My two penneth on this subject.

It is compulsary for small children to wear a helmet whilst skiing because of safety etc and I found it rather hypocritical that I should enforce this and not wear one.

So I do.

Thats about it really.

On the subject of earphones and/or helmets with earphones, I'm quite against this myself because you cannot hear anything else around you, like small children or wives yelling that they've fallen over. Neither can you hear an out of control skiier/boarder if they are behind you. I've always taken this stance and it has evolved from mountain biking where some people listen to music whilst riding. You can't hear other users, traffic (when on the road) etc.

Thats my preference and whilst I think my opinion is a valid one I wouldn't spout it to everyone else.
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abc wrote:

I found it the other way around:

Helmet wearers seem to spend their time telling everyone else to wear helmets (even though it makes no difference to themselves)! They may even use their own personal experience as supporting "evidence". rolling eyes



I haven't seen any evidence of this at all. All threads I've ever seen on helmets are started by non-helmet wearers pooping on the whole concept - this one is a good example. Perhaps you could link to all the threads started by people telling everyone else they should wear a helmet.

Having read a lot of the pro and con arguments and made up my own mind, I chose to wear a helmet but would never tell you or anyone else to wear one. It's your choice. IME I think that's the stance of nearly all helmet wearing skiers. Quite a few non-helmet wearers on the other hand have an irritating tendency to justify their decision to everyone else over and over, like CG.
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Quote:

Quite a few non-helmet wearers on the other hand have an irritating tendency to justify their decision to everyone else over and over, like CG.




+100
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I agree with plenty of Boris's article. There's definitely an element of fashion. ALthough I've been wearing a helmet since 2007 so can't explain it on the basis of the financial crisis...

This bit is rubbish though:
Quote:

and if anything I imagine it might be even more painful, if you are on the downhill side of the argument, to be walloped by an out-of-control skier equipped with a plastic battering ram on his head.

and rather shows up the limitations of Boris's scientific education. Ski helmets work by deforming to absorb impact. The skier walloped by a helmet will be better off than one walloped by a bare head.
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uktrailmonster wrote:
All threads I've ever seen on helmets are started by non-helmet wearers pooping on the whole concept - this one is a good example. Perhaps you could link to all the threads started by people telling everyone else they should wear a helmet.

All the anti-helmet thread, as far as I can tell, were started by one single poster by the name of Goldsmith (of various incarnation). I'm as tired of his anti-helmet thread just as much as the pro-helmet threads. Plenty of others who don't wear helmet but keep their choices with themselves without preaching about it constantly.

Granted, majority helmet wearer also kept their choices to themselves. But sadly some find it neccessary to preach, as evidenced by pro-helmet thread by many different posters:

http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=97209

http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=72982

http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=33495

http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=38612
...
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