 Poster: A snowHead
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| allanm wrote: |
| Timberwolf wrote: |
| Masque wrote: |
| allanm, these days, even parents have to earn respect. Our children are far more informed than we ever were (for good or ill) so we have to include them in the decision making process . . . doesn't mean they will get what they want but they should know why a choice is made. |
Spot on Masque
Is this the most informative SH thread ever ?  |
Yes, only cos we can't give em a good whack. I was afraid of the police when I was nipper... |
allanm, I grew up in a house where physical discipline ( never inappropriate amounts btw ) was the default. I respect my father for the way he brought me up, but when I became a parent I decided that I didn't need to use smacking/whacking/clipping round the ear - whatever the phrase might be - as a method. Apologies if this sounds conceited, but I think I have some equally, if not more, effective skills in my discipline toolbox. To date, my decision has been 100% justified as I have 2 wonderful ( and well disciplined ) children. They also have an appropriate mix of respect / fear of policemen, although I not quite sure what that has to do with it
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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All very interesting and this thread has made me do some navel gazing - why do I not wear a ski helmet when I do wear a helmet for cycling and also for horse riding? Why am I considering purchasing a back protector for horse riding but not wear one for cycling! Why dont I have a ski helmet? What a about body armour for skiing?
I dont know the answers, I just know that I "am a good person" and wear my hats for cycling and riding because my husband likes me to and in the case of horse riding because the stables wont allow me out without a kite marked hat. Would I wear a hat if I had my own horse and no one was telling me what to do - well I never used to but probably I would now!
As for the ski helmet - I dont fancy wearing one, I have a perception I would get hot and itchy in one - this all illogical as I have never tried one but may do so in the future!
Am I in fact like many people who dont wear one (and its like eating octopus) I dont like it even though I have never tried it.
Illogicality is a continuing feature of our lives in many of the things we do.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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FFIRMIN, I've resisted contributing to this utterly pointless thread until now, but yours was a good-tempered, well-considered breath of fresh air. In response...... ski helmets are remarkably light and comfortable. Not itchy, not too hot, and great on a cold day. If I had one tiny criticism I'd say that you need to choose your sunglasses carefully so the arms don't dig into the side of your head.....and don't give in to all that nonsense about how you have to wear goggles with a helmet/
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FFIRMIN, FWIW a little tale about back protectors:
When I was about 20 I broke my back horse riding - I got away with it, but I never again got on a horse without a back protector - I take the view that I can't afford another similar injury - I don't have an air jacket - can't afford one but I do have a good back protector. IMHO they are totally brilliant, I have since fallen several times whilst wearing it and the difference to falling without it is incredible - I scarcely notice a tumble whilst wearing it, but regularly had the 'stuffing knocked out of me' without it. My kids have never got on a horse without a helmet (they were sat on horses before they could walk - I had some dinky helmets in the house then  ), but when they were learning to walk and trot they didn't have a back protector - I'd ride with them whilst wearing one, but they didn't have them. I made a risk based decision there that they would be OK, because at that stage I was largely in control of the horses. The moment they started cantering and jumping they got back protectors and now they have them I enforce their wearing even if they just doing flat-work - I think it seems a bit weird not use safety gear if you have it, though I know some people only wear helmets for certain types of skiing.
FWIW if you can suffer a riding helmet without it itching you will be fine with a ski helmet. The fit of a ski helmet is much different - not as 'close' IMO - they are also often ventilated (not so many horse ones are). I also don't think you work as hard on skis as you can do on a horse (depends on what you are doing of course , but I get off a horse far more hot and bothered after an hour lesson than I do when I finish skiing after a whole day) I think you would get on just fine if you wear one on a horse in hot summer weather and find you can do so.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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FFIRMIN, simple - on a horse / bicycle we look at the hard road / field / track we might fall onto and put on a helmet...
out skiing we look at piles of nice fluffy snow and assume we will have soft landings - it is a deep psychological conundrum to us - we think of skiing as playing in a large padded cell ()
while piles of soft fluffy snow will act as a helmet / duvet / etc. in slowing down impact - pistes do not, nor do rocks / trees / snowboarders / ESF crocodiles of small children / etc. - all of which can provide hard impact...
therefore if you are skiing off-piste / on-piste in piles of powder, you may not need a helmet - on-piste where anything can or does happen, it makes more sense!
Alasdair
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N.B With my 'history' I would be happy to wear a back protector whilst skiing, but I can't justify the expense at the moment, vs. the very little skiing that I do each year. If the kids became 'park rats' I might well kit them out in due course.
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| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
| Not itchy, not too hot, and great on a cold day. |
I find them uncomfortably hot on a warm spring day. It's one of the factors that determines whether or not my lid goes on (which these days is more often on than off).
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All depends what you value the insides of your head at.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Kids in Ski School (St Anton) have to wear Helmets they more or likely as the grow up continue to wear them.
Profesional Junior Squash Competitions they all have to wear protective glasses.
However in the Adult Mens & Womans Pro Competetions only 1 male in the Top 20 & 0 woman in the Top 20 wear protective glasses.
Only in American leagues & Pro Doubles competiotions are they compulusory
I think comparing Horse Back Riding to skiing is going to far. You have not got an unpredictable beast under you.
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| philwig wrote: |
Except for my deaf snowboarding friends I guess, who you incorrectly suggest are more dangerous that other people.
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You just made that bit up.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| stanton wrote: |
Kids in Ski School (St Anton) have to wear Helmets they more or likely as the grow up continue to wear them.
Profesional Junior Squash Competitions they all have to wear protective glasses.
However in the Adult Mens & Womans Pro Competetions only 1 male in the Top 20 & 0 woman in the Top 20 wear protective glasses.
Only in American leagues & Pro Doubles competiotions are they compulusory
I think comparing Horse Back Riding to skiing is going to far. You have not got an unpredictable beast under you. |
All varies in life - polo for example, the USA assoc. have made serious helmets compulsory quite recently
the HPA (main governing body here) require protective helmets to be worn (and recommend certain standards, but don't enforce them) - polo helmets are widely known to be quite useless but when the HPA tried many years ago to enforce standards equivalent to eventing / show-jumping / etc. - there was a revolt and the players said no! So they can continue to wear helmets which are more like hats!
When you are playing sport under a body's rules / control / in their time - then they can't afford to not enforce current safety kit, they would be left with a big bill in the event of an accident and no insurance company would pick up the cost...
but that is very different to people doing their own thing at their own risk
Alasdair
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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stanton, that post above is probably the most relevant thing I have ever seen you post. You're like DG, very occasionally you pull the cat out the bag and say something relevant and worthwhile in a thread - more of the same please 
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I think comparing Horse Back Riding to skiing is going to far. You have not got an unpredictable beast under you.
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Try telling that to my skis!
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| dode wrote: |
| Shimmy Alcott, ditto, if only I knew as a kid that I would grow out of it I wudda spent even more time practising |
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
andyrew, I'm afraid you're the victim of a giant con.
The fact that helmet manufacturers have created their giant industry of ineffective lids with scares and falsehoods (yes, I'm afraid that significant truths will emerge) ... before compounding their cynicism with 'in-helmet entertainment', which they know is so unsafe ... means that they should not be supported any longer (in my view). These factories are simply not in the safety business.
If it's the truth is that heads were just as safe (once all the data is assembled) before helmets existed ... which seems to be the emerging truth ... then these helmet brands do not deserve financial support! |
Now that's what I call cynical! Safety in all aspects of life, work, cars, aircraft etc, etc, etc. has improved dramatically over the last 50 years. The recent growth in the ski helmet industry is just a reflection of our attitude to safety and not some cynical money making scheme as you like to portray. Some helmets are obviously better than others too e.g. Sweet, POC.
However, I do kind of agree that headphones are probably a step too far! But who are we to make choices for people?
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Poster: A snowHead
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uktrailmonster, he also flagrantly ignores the discussion of the statistics that points out that people are doing ever more dangerous things. CG is cherry picking the answer he finds most appealing despite there being lots of other plausible explanations for why the incidence of head injury has remained constant other than his favourite conspiracy theory.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
andyrew, I'm afraid you're the victim of a giant con.
The fact that helmet manufacturers have created their giant industry of ineffective lids with scares and falsehoods (yes, I'm afraid that significant truths will emerge) ... before compounding their cynicism with 'in-helmet entertainment', which they know is so unsafe ... means that they should not be supported any longer (in my view). These factories are simply not in the safety business.
If it's the truth is that heads were just as safe (once all the data is assembled) before helmets existed ... which seems to be the emerging truth ... then these helmet brands do not deserve financial support! |
And your personal experience within the industry is?!
Alasdair
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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akirk ... Alasdair ... I once worked (1975-7) for a ski and skateboard retailer in London called Alpine Sports (a big force of its time). Since that time I've not had any trade involvement in skiing (except for importing the first snowboards and monoskis into the UK shortly after that). I spent about 12 years from 1983-95 researching ski equipment/technology internationally for a UK ski magazine, Sunday Times and other media.
The comment above is purely based on the activities of the ski helmet industry (particularly its marketing and publicity) since about the year 2000, as I've observed them.
But maybe your question was light-hearted/tongue-in-cheek. I wasn't sure!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Swiss Freerider took a jump off piste in Ovronnaz yesterday. Airlifted by Air-Glaciers with serious head injuries, no helmet.
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| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
akirk ... Alasdair ... I once worked (1975-7) for a ski and skateboard retailer in London called Alpine Sports (a big force of its time). Since that time I've not had any trade involvement in skiing (except for importing the first snowboards and monoskis into the UK shortly after that). I spent about 12 years from 1983-95 researching ski equipment/technology internationally for a UK ski magazine, Sunday Times and other media.
The comment above is purely based on the activities of the ski helmet industry (particularly its marketing and publicity) since about the year 2000, as I've observed them.
But maybe your question was light-hearted/tongue-in-cheek. I wasn't sure! |
more intrigued... - didn't want it to sound accusatory hence the smilie...
my experience in the helmet industry is more recent - but still several years out of date and I am constantly amazed (and pleased) with how much technical development has taken place over the last few years... I know a number of owners of helmet companies and have seen their companies at word - seen the R&D etc. and it is fair to say that a few years ago there was a very passive approach to development - but a number of far more professional companies have come along and the whole safety manufacturer world has lifted up a notch or two...
so we might have to disagree in our interpretation of the industry - yes, not perfect, but def. no longer as you describe it...
Alasdair
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akirk, What was the testing/experiments like?
As thorough as my earlier suggestions?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Miners
construction workers
Racing drivers
Motorcyclists
Ski racers
horse riders
cyclists
Cricketers
Have all gone from helmetless to helmeted. Skiing is just the latest battleground in the ongoing helmetisation of society. I see that soccer helmets are being marketed in the States.
Where next? I suggest compulsory helmets for all car drivers, children playing in publicly owned playparks and for the elderly.
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Alasdair, if there are helmet-makers not installing phones/speakers inside the shell, let's start by identifying them. They may be in the safety business rather than the entertainment business.
At the beginning of this thread - and very much the reason for it (since most people are tired of helmet threads) - is an article which addresses the basic engineering/physical challenges concerning deceleration of the skull vis-a-vis deceleration of the brain.
Some injuries seemingly just can't be reduced. Head injuries (statistically low) maybe compare with ACL knee injuries (statistically high) in that the engineering of the helmet or the ski binding can't be modified to address the cause (the 'electronic binding' had its moment). James Timothy's words, and those of Kelley McMillan in the NY Times, provide a pretty clear and logical perspective on all this.
Yes, in my travels around countless ski equipment factories in the 80s and 90s I saw many R+D departments. They are usually just part of the marketing - dressed-up bullshit in the form of "xxxxxxxx technology" or "xxxxxxxxxx feature" which typically has little impact on the performance of the product but which can be communicated as a revolution.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Tue 14-01-14 8:35; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| ALQ wrote: |
akirk, What was the testing/experiments like?
As thorough as my earlier suggestions? |
slight more scientifc-ish  but basically some of what you suggest - slightly fewer brick walls - slight more repeatable and measured... so using drop-pits / dummies (ot many human volunteers!) / head forms containing sensors etc.
Comedy Goldsmith, installing a speaker / phone in the helmet isn't directly an indication of R&D / lack of R&D in the safety side of it - yes, strictly unnecessary, but there is clear understanding in business that safety on its own is difficult to sell - role models wearing the kit / sexy team colours (a la cycling & SKY team) / hi-tech gadgets all sell... so address the safety then add some marketing bits to sell it is not a bad business approach...
A lot of the significant R&D has come from innovative small companies changing technology in the safety products - then often adopted by the bigger companies...
Alasdair
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Megamum, akirk, It's alllll marketing baloney by the men in white coats!!
My ski pole tip / brick wall experiment is all you need, with more repetitions TO MAKE SURE.
Errr...how can a dummy or melon assess brain damage?
No, we need real experiments with real people...none of this Elf n Safety nonsense.
Those who think helmets are ineffective are ideal candidates...step forward lads and do Britain proud.
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Funnily enough, I've just been chatting to Glen Plake about physics.
He is of the opinion that the new particle uncovered at CERN last year probably is the so-called Higgs boson, though he isn't prepared - for obvious reasons! - to speculate as to whether it's the Higgs boson of the Standard Model of particle physics, or simply the lightest of a series of alternate bosons predicted in a variety of theories that go beyond the Standard Model.
He didn't want to discuss helmets, though.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Glen Plake?? I can't believe he's a pro skier....I'm waaay better than him 
(1000 GNAR points pls)
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Spud9 wrote: |
| I see that soccer helmets are being marketed in the States. |
You mean football helmets? 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
Yes, in my travels around countless ski equipment factories in the 80s and 90s I saw many R+D departments. They are usually just part of the marketing - dressed-up bullshit in the form of "xxxxxxxx technology" or "xxxxxxxxxx feature" which typically has little impact on the performance of the product but which can be communicated as a revolution. |
Welcome to innovation.
There's often equal measures of marketing pull, and technology push when it comes to research and development.
On the one hand, there's marketing departments looking for something new to enable them to put their products ahead of the competition. On the other, there's the engineers and technical specialists who are developing new products with genuine technical benefit and seeking assistance from the marketing departments to make it into a viable product.
They aren't always the same developments, but neither are they mutually exclusive.
To suggest that it's 100% marketing is incredibly naive.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
To suggest that it's 100% marketing is incredibly naive
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DG is just hoping that if he says it often enough it will be reality and it will be another knife to stick in the SCGB back.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I'm a snowboarder not a skier (ready the pitchforks and torches...). The few head impacts I have suffered over the years have involved my head being whipped back into hard, icy snow. These have jolted me badly enough through my helmet - without it, I am pretty certain that I would have sustained skull fractures and/or brain damage.
I know this kind of fall is far less common for skiers, but still. Anything can, and does, happen up a mountain. My helmet's protected me from injury. My experience is far from rare.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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vinerower, Most of this lot think you have to be brain damaged to be snowboarder.
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| Quote: |
This stunning photo kind of sums up his head-agenda ...
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musta been very frosty
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| vinerower wrote: |
| I'm a snowboarder not a skier (ready the pitchforks and torches...). The few head impacts I have suffered over the years have involved my head being whipped back into hard, icy snow. These have jolted me badly enough through my helmet - without it, I am pretty certain that I would have sustained skull fractures and/or brain damage. |
You see this kind of statement fairly regularly on this forum (and I'm not picking on vinerower for being a boarder) - basically justifying helmet use because of habitually hitting head. Well it's not a good idea with or without a helmet, and the next hit might be the one that puts you in a coma, so, counter intuitively, a helmet isn't the answer for people who keep hitting their heads. I'm not offering a solution other than technique and better decision making but accepting whacks on the head as an occupational hazard doesn't cut it for me (or brain surgeons).
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Bode Swiller, good point.
Sort of drifting of my agenda of simply wanting to retain choice.....
Yes, I hit my head (several times) when wearing a helmet, it has a fair war wound to prove which undoubtedly would have given me some grief - as it was, nigh on knocked me out. But no injury.
But never hit my head when not wearing one (prob 90+% of time on skis). Why is that?
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I've probably done more damage to my brain banging my head against a wall repeatedly whilst reading all these helmet threads on this forum whilst not wearing any of my (mtb/motorbike/skiing) helmets than I have done falling over skiing whilst wearing my skiing helmet. Does that mean I should wear a helmet whenever I'm reading snowheads?
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FAQ
