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Is one helmet better than another?

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Freddie Paellahead, 2nd column from the right Sicherheit (safety) is the one you're interested in. Looks like there was only one "less safe" helmet. (I think their test in 2008 had 2 fails.)
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Freddie Paellahead, I suggest the best place in our area to try a range of helmets for fit is Snowtrax at Christchurch ski centre.
They have a wide range from many manufacturers and really good staff who are happy to help with good knowledge and equally happy to let you get on with trying every helmet in the shop!
Www.snowtraxstore.co.uk
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Thanks boredsurfin Very Happy
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I have to say that when I was looking at helmets (and as I said I looked dozens of them) that I was singularly unimpressed with the apparent visual build quality of Giro helmets in particular. The likes of most Salomons, POC, Sweet, No Fear were all far more robustly constructed for my money. These days if I was shopping for a helmet I wouldn't even consider looking at a Giro on the basis of my past experience.
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Megamum wrote:
I have to say that when I was looking at helmets (and as I said I looked dozens of them) that I was singularly unimpressed with the apparent visual build quality of Giro helmets in particular. The likes of most Salomons, POC, Sweet, No Fear were all far more robustly constructed for my money. These days if I was shopping for a helmet I wouldn't even consider looking at a Giro on the basis of my past experience.


See previous post. Giro helmets seem to work.
Giro have been making bike and ski helmets a long time, and I believe at least used to take back broken ones, to help their development process..

A high end POC helmet costs $300 a high-end Giro one costs $150. What sort of helmet were you looking at? My G10 doesn't seem markedly worse built than my Backcountry receptor considering the large price difference (and the POC goggle clip is, well, ...) . Though they are completely different construction techniques.
Until about 6 months ago I was happy to trust my head Vancouver commuting and on the North shore trails to my Giro Xen and would have bought another if they still made them.
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stuarth, the numerous Giros that I looked at appeared too light in construction to be functional - they def. felt 'flimsy', they universally didn't fit me (which didn't help matters), I wasn't keen on the fact that a lot of them had vents in, without exception everyone that I picked up had loose ear covers that looked as though they were about to fall off (added to my concerns about build quality, and generally I just wasn't impressed. I'll be honest, I thought they were the ones to get as most folks have them, but my conclusion was they sell purely on reputation and on my reckoning were no-where close to being the best I could lay my hands on.
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Quote:

I wasn't keen on the fact that a lot of them had vents in

Puzzled
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Megamum wrote:
stuarth, the numerous Giros that I looked at appeared too light in construction to be functional - they def. felt 'flimsy', they universally didn't fit me (which didn't help matters), I wasn't keen on the fact that a lot of them had vents in, without exception everyone that I picked up had loose ear covers that looked as though they were about to fall off (added to my concerns about build quality, and generally I just wasn't impressed. I'll be honest, I thought they were the ones to get as most folks have them, but my conclusion was they sell purely on reputation and on my reckoning were no-where close to being the best I could lay my hands on.


Well the important thing is that it fits right, but the rest of your stuff about Giro seems perhaps somewhat off the mark.
I believe the ear covers are meant to come off on lots of the models and you can change them for the speaker ones if that's your thing.
Were you looking at the bottom end ones in TK Max?

POC make a point about having a penetration barrier and if you're skiing trees this might be important (I suspect you are not?), but having owned both, imho it does not vent as well as a Giro helmet (which incidentally on the G10 you can shut the vents if you want). I never have the plugs in my POC helmet, and it is just about right unless it is really warm or much hiking involved (in which case I'd probably have taken off my Giro too).

Incidentally I agree that Giro helmets are perhaps not necessarily the top of the pile, that is why I don't ski in one at the moment, but then I can justify the money for a more expensive POC one with the amount and type of skiing I do. I did have one, in fact two Giros previously, I had a G9 before the G10 for a long time and they did fine
If I raced I'm sure I could justify even more money and go and splash out $500 for a POC super skull comp or similar carbon fibre creations, but then my head would probably get super-toasty as they don't seem to have a lot of venting - maybe this is what you are looking for?
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Just bought a Sweet Igniter. MIPS, from the Ski Exchange http://www.skiexchange.co.uk/department/equipment/helmets/1/ , they had an impressive range of Sweet helmets, there were other makes too. I went for the Sweet as I liked the design and the quality, I wanted to have mips as it seems to offer and advantage, no hard evidence for it. The fit of the helmet is very good, better than my last one and I thought that was good! I think my head is worth splashing out the extra for, though it's no guarantee that it will protect me against all ahead related accidents.

Simon who helped me in the shop, made an interesting remark that a lot of people where upgrading their helmets this year.
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It's all very well saying POC are great....their helmet shape just does not fit my head at all.
Scott for me and a rather old Salomon for my wife....they were the ones that fitted the best.
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My old Cebe with a hard shell fitted me perfectly, when the goggle strap snapped off after 10 years use I had to get a new lighter model as I knew the firms lids always suited my head shape. Given that I ski a lot of forests and rocky terrain I will be keeping my eye out for a tougher lid with a hard shell as IMHO these deal better with the multiple scuffs and light knocks which only seem to cause minor trauma to the helmet surface.
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Interesting article just posted by Comedy Goldsmith. Says what most of us think. But I know in my case I started skiing what would be called more risky terrain before I started wearing a helmet, it definitely played a zero factor in my choices. It's the differentiation between cranial injuries and brain trauma that is the crux of the matter. Massive trauma to the head will always be dangerous. But more people now ski parks, do half pipes, jumps, cliff drops than ever before. If we didn't have ski helmets I think they would mostly all still be doing exactly the same thing.

Useful input to the discussion by Kelley McMillan of the New York Times, yesterday:
Ski Helmet Use Isn’t Reducing Brain Injuries

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/01/sports/on-slopes-rise-in-helmet-use-but-no-decline-in-brain-injuries.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

The increase in helmet use has had positive results. Experts say helmets have reduced the numbers of less serious head injuries, like scalp lacerations, by 30 percent to 50 percent, and Schumacher’s doctors say he would not have survived his fall had he not worn a helmet. But growing evidence indicates that helmets do not prevent some more serious injuries, like the tearing of delicate brain tissue, said Jasper Shealy, a professor emeritus at Rochester Institute of Technology.

Shealy, who has been studying snow-sports-related injuries at Sugarbush resort in Vermont for more than 30 years, said that could be because those injuries typically involve a rotational component that today’s helmets cannot mitigate. He said his research had not found any decline in what he called P.S.H.I.’s, for potentially serious head injuries, a classification that includes concussion, skull fracture, closed head injury, traumatic brain injury and death by head injury.

In fact, some studies indicate that the number of snow-sports-related head injuries has increased. A 2012 study at the Western Michigan University School of Medicine on head injuries among skiers and snowboarders in the United States found that the number of head injuries increased 60 percent in a seven-year period, from 9,308 in 2004 to 14,947 in 2010, even as helmet use increased by an almost identical percentage over the same period. A March 2013 study by the University of Washington concluded that the number of snow-sports-related head injuries among youths and adolescents increased 250 percent from 1996 to 2010.

Experts agree that the roots of the trend are complicated and could be related to increased awareness about brain injuries and reporting of them. But they also agreed on one element underpinning the trend: an increase in risk-taking behaviors that they said the snow-sports industry had embraced. In recent years, many resorts have built bigger features in their terrain parks and improved access to more extreme terrain. At the same time, advances in equipment have made it easier to ski faster, perform tricks and venture out of bounds.

“There’s a push toward faster, higher, pushing the limits being the norm, not the exception,” said Nina Winans, a sports medicine physician at Tahoe Forest MultiSpecialty Clinics in Truckee, Calif. “So, all of those factors — terrain parks, jumping cliffs and opening terrain that maybe wasn’t open in the past — play into some of these statistics with injuries.”

The population most susceptible to that culture is the one that is dying, statistics show. Seventy percent of snow-sports fatalities involve men in their late teens to late 30s, according to the ski area association. That is the same population that most often engages in high-risk behaviors like driving fast. Head injuries remain the leading cause of deaths in skiing and snowboarding, Shealy said, with about 30 in the United States each year.

“The helmet does a very good job at protecting against skull lacerations and skull fractures, but it doesn’t seem to have much effect on concussions or T.B.I.’s,” Shealy said, referring to traumatic brain injuries. “Our guess is that this is due to the fact that those injuries are occurring at such a high magnitude of energy that they overwhelm what a helmet can do for you.”
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Megamum wrote:
I would have thought the most significant factor is 'does it fit?' and 'is it being worn at the correct orientation?'.


Exactly. When we bought our helmets last year in Germany, we spent over 1 hour trying different helmets on. You would be amazed as to the variation between manufacturers on what seems to be the same size and shape of helmet. Spend some time trying different helmets on, and learn how to wear them properly. Way too many people wear them too low, or too high, or sacrifice safety for comfort, which obviously negates their purpose...
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Worth bearing in mind that most helmets come with pads to customise the fit though.
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Avalanche Poodle, what are the stats for the increase in number of skiers? Those studies don't mean much unless they tell us how much it is comparatively. Would be interested to find out though!
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Timmaah, Difficult to find data on that. But park use may be more traceable, simply because 10 - 15 years ago there were not that many, now almost every resort seems to have them. I'd assume that it is quite a large magnitude, even looking at off piste. maybe look at the number of booked guided days in the paste and in recent years.
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Anyone any experience/views on Smith helmets?
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kendoddsdadsdogsdead, some very interesting information (as well as a lot of pompous poppycock) on the Michael Schumacher thread. The conclusion of the most expert contributor, with experience of the industry, was "buy cheap and buy often" as even what seem like minor knocks can degrade helmet performance.
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Quote:

Anyone any experience/views on Smith helmets?

Love my 2011 Variant Brim. I wasn't looking for a Smith, but the Bolle/POC/Sweet helmets didn't fit my head, which was a shame 'cos I originally wanted the Bolle as they were a good price and I loved the look of the Sweet Trooper. Uvex or Giro was the choice for fit, then the guy brought out the Smith and even though it was more than I really wanted to pay, for me it ticked all the boxes. Double layer protection, better and more adjustable venting than the Giro's and it fit perfectly.

Job done. Love it. It's well warm and has been brilliant.
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pam w wrote:
The conclusion of the most expert contributor, with experience of the industry, was "buy cheap and buy often" as even what seem like minor knocks can degrade helmet performance.


Not all helmets are created equal. "Minor knock" was never defined. No study was referenced, and no figures were given. The conclusion is slightly better than hearsay (helmet performance will degrade after you've hit it hard enough, cos that's the way they work), but ultimately it has no more value than a marketing statement from a helmet manufacturer!

Buying cheap and often is unlikely to do you any harm, at least.
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I wonder if we will see a specialist niche develop for ski helmet fitting?
Just off to beat CEM to www.Solutions4heads.com Toofy Grin

I think we have established that it is essential to get the right fit and also that the goggle helmet relationship is sound. We would obviously need an experts help and advice snowHead
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Quote:

The conclusion is slightly better than hearsay (helmet performance will degrade after you've hit it hard enough, cos that's the way they work), but ultimately it has no more value than a marketing statement from a helmet manufacturer!
Really? It seems to me that we have a carefully considered input from someone who was heavily involved with the testing of ski helmets and based upon his considerable experience he expressed his view. You dismiss that as 'no more value than a marketing statement'? I cant understand why? Nobody is saying that it is conclusive proof supported, peer reviewed and supported by overwhelming data, but I reckon it is a lot better than a mere marketing statement. I don't quite see why you wouldn't take his posts at face value. Have you spent a fortune on a Smith helmet and simply can't bear the thought that it may not offer better protection than a cheaper one?

On a slightly different note, Schumacher's neuointensivist (I think that's the term) said that without a helmet he would not have survived. No data, no peer review and yet I think most of us would agree that his comments have some validity.
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foxtrotzulu wrote:
It seems to me that we have a carefully considered input from someone who was heavily involved with the testing of ski helmets and based upon his considerable experience he expressed his view. You dismiss that as 'no more value than a marketing statement'?


Pretty much. Helmet manufacturer claims they make super safe helmets, add features above and beyond those required by the safety standards, yada yada yada. Might well be true, but in the meantime we have no actual data.

foxtrotzulu wrote:
I don't quite see why you wouldn't take his posts at face value..


The face value of a post by some guy on some internet forum is pretty low. I've no idea who he claims to be. I've no idea if he is who he claims to be. I don't know what his credentials are. He's come in making one valid point that I do not dispute (helmet performance degrades upon damage), and one tenuous point that he does not define or back up with actual numbers (there is no safe impact energy threshold below which helmet performance will not degrade). If there was some objective evidence, the fact that's he's a faceless internet guy wouldn't matter at all.

The POC description of their EPP liners mentions multi impact resistance. They don't give impact forces, impact count, define the type of impactor, or state whether after such impacts it still passes the safety tests... the whole thing is just marketing blurb. Nonetheless, they are a respected manufacturer of protective gear, and appear to employ engineers who know their stuff.

You see the similarity here?

foxtrotzulu wrote:
Have you spent a fortune on a Smith helmet and simply can't bear the thought that it may not offer better protection than a cheaper one?


Nah, its a POC helmet wink

By the only objective measures we have, with actual standardised tests, there's no reason to assume it offers better protection than a cheaper model which has also passed those tests, because the tests only give us pass or fail scores. I can cope with that just fine, thanks.

foxtrotzulu wrote:
On a slightly different note, Schumacher's neuointensivist (I think that's the term) said that without a helmet he would not have survived. No data, no peer review and yet I think most of us would agree that his comments have some validity.


He's making a fairly uncontentious claim (helmets designed to absorb impact energy reduce the amount of damage to the wearer's head). He's also not posting on some random internet forum as 'MSNeuro63' either, is he?
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Serriadh,
Quote:

He's making a fairly uncontentious claim
Well, I would have thought that akirk's claim that even relatively minor impacts degrade the performance was pretty un-contentious. It's completely in line with all the other advice you ever hear about helmets of almost any sort.

OK, so you are happy to dismiss the marketing blurb from POC on the basis that
Quote:
They don't give impact forces, impact count, define the type of impactor, or state whether after such impacts it still passes the safety tests... the whole thing is just marketing blurb.
and presumably accept you also accept that they only say that they have engineers. There is no proof provided obviously. However there is one fundamental difference between akirk and any manufacturer. Bias. unless you dismiss everything that anybody says unless it is immediately backed up by incontrovertible proof then clearly you need to decide to take a view and the fact that the manufacturer is clearly very biased then I would tend to give their statement less validity than that of someone who appears to have highly relevant experience and no obvious bias. He could of course be making the entire thing up, but as there is no obvious motive and no reason to disbelieve hi, and his statement fits with the general body of opinion then I am happy to give his comments some validity.
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foxtrotzulu wrote:
Well, I would have thought that akirk's claim that even relatively minor impacts degrade the performance was pretty un-contentious. It's completely in line with all the other advice you ever hear about helmets of almost any sort.


No. His suggestion is that standard advice on when to discard helmets does not go far enough, because even trivial impacts can seriously affect the safety of a helmet. Amongst the assumptions made here is the one that all helmets are manufactured equal, and therefore all are just as vulnerable, and that the level of force required to permanently damage a helmet is far lower than most people are told. He's not making a simple claim here, no matter how much you try to simplify it, and his latter claim is quite a serious one.

foxtrotzulu wrote:
However there is one fundamental difference between akirk and any manufacturer... no obvious bias.


[citation needed]

Looks like he just recommended that people buy cheap helmets often. There's a stance that cheaper helmet manufacturers would love everyone to take wink

But seriously... I know nothing about him or his affiliations. You may be bestest buds with him, but I don't care because I don't know you either! None of that matters of course, because the results of those tests and the parameters under which they were conducted are presumably out there somewhere. I suspect that I'm not the only person who would be very interested in seeing them.
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Freddie Paellahead wrote:
Thanks snowman.
For those that are interested, here is the link to the 2010 ADAC testing of 16 helmets - unfortunately (for me) it's in German:
http://www.adac.de/infotestrat/tests/fahrrad-zubehoer-sport/skihelme_2010/default.aspx?tabid=tab1


I use Firefox as a browser with Google Translator plug in, so the Head Sensor shows:

Price in Euro: 149
Features: in-mold construction
Country of Origin: China
Weight in medium size: 425 g
Chin strap closure: Grid closure
Ventilation regulation: 2 slider
Ear part: removable and adjustable
Size adaptation: using the rotary

In-mold helmet with adjustable ventilation

All around a successful helmet: The many shades of each size to find a suitable dish. For the season 2010/11 Head has incorporated a very well usable size adjustment in the current series.
Criterion Weighting Note
Technical Features 15% 1.5 sehr gut
Security 30% 2.2 gut
Comfort 55% 2.0 gut
ADAC judgment 2.0 gut
Strengthen

easily
very well usable size adjustment
robust surface
height-adjustable ear pieces
comfortable ear pieces
good fit
Goggles securing good
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Serriadh, I think you will find that I said 'no obvious bias' and consequently a citation is not required. Would you dispute the statement that there is no obvious bias?
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I don't care. I just want to see the numbers.
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 You know it makes sense.
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Serriadh,

akirk never suggested that 'trivial' knocks were a cause for concern. What he said was this...

Quote:
The results are scary - it only requires a minor knock to the helmet to mean that it no longer meets the standards and will not protect you in a real accident - yet we see skiers throwing their helmets on the floor, being hit by the chair lift bar, etc. and carrying on assuming that the helmet will continue to work... helmets are built down to a standard (to be much above the standard makes them bulky and expensive) so they are only just above the protective level required - therefore it takes little to push them below...
A skier falling and hitting their head / a rider dropping the helmet on the yard floor from heir horse / coming off your bike / leaving a helmet in the sun in a car / bashing a helmet unexpectedly - can all reduce impact protection to below the required amount...


As you can see he referred to minor knock. In a subsequent email he clarified his comments when PamW was worried about a minor knock from a chairlift...

Quote:
Not necessarily - you need to make a judgement, a tap from the bar is probably fine - but a hard knock may well damage the helmet.

As I said before I don't think his comments are out of line with general guidance. See this http://www.bhsi.org/replace.htm
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Freddie Paellahead, thanks for raising the helmet topic, also thanks everybody for all the subsequent info. Hopefully, sooner or later, we will hear the full details of Schumacher's crash, especially his quality/type of helmet. Given that reports say his helmet split open, and I would assume that MS would only have had the very best, I fear for the rest.
In the meantime good luck to Schumacher and a happy and safe New Year to everybody.
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Well I was torn between a non mips helmet and a mips one but after reading this http://www.bicycling.com/senseless/index.html I've just ordered a mips helmet (sweet igniter) I know it's about cycling helmets but ski helmets are constructed the same.
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2planks, Interesting article. Given the slipperiness of snow compared to, say, tarmac I wonder about the added value of MIPS in the skiing environment. But it's not going to hurt, is it?
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foxtrotzulu, I know what you mean about snow being lower friction, hopefully will never find out if it makes a difference.

I originally bought a helmet in Canada ten yrs ago because it kept my head warmer than a hat wink
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2planks, Plus when you face plant you don't spend 10 minutes trying to brush snow out of your hat.
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Hiya,


This may sound really obvious, but bear with me

Q:Does a bullet proof vest really protect against bullets ?

A:Depends on the gun, or if you get shot in the head.

I know it sounds bloody obvious but you have to separate the components of head and brain injury.

A helmet will protect somewhat/to quite a bit against translational forces, skull fractures, lacerations, punctures.

Protection only goes so far, just as no vest will effectively shield you from a depleted uranium .50 cal round fired from a a BFG but will shield you from a .38 special no problems

No helmet will save you when you land head first from the fourth floor balcony on concrete, but most will mitigate a classic faceplant.

IMHO the trend toward low profile helmets like the Giro Combyn is just stupid.. shure it looks a little less like the キノピオ from SuperMario but dissipation of energy is lot easier with more volume and if you have some magic compound that can do the job in 1 cm .. I would like 2 cm's please.


Just as a vest does not protect for getting shot in the head or getting hit by a lorry or getting crushed by a 10 TON ACME weight, a helmet can not guard for some things, most notably rotational forces and large translations of the head ( whiplash type injury). That is why for instance a HANS system is used in racing.. to keep your head from being ripped off your spine in extreme deceleration. same with similar systems in motocross. you need a specific system to counter a different force. The MIPS layering tries to mitigate extreme rotational acceleration, does it work .. shure. Will it save your brain? It depends..

In Schumachers case I would wager a guess that his neck muscles (F1 guys have strudy necks) saved his brain more from rotational shear than his helmet.


well. end of rant
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Something I turned up earlier comparing EPS and EPP foams in ski helmets... http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/19346182.2012.744413?journalCode=rtec20

Its not a free article, but the summary includes the important bits. It suggests that EPP might have advantages over EPS for low energy impacts and holds together better after repeated impacts. EPS clearly suffers from repeated impacts, with the foam cracking which would render it useless in a serious high energy crash. There's no test to see if the EPP liner is any good at that point, sadly. I wonder how often gate-bashers change their helmets?

A bit more searching didn't turn up any protective downsides to EPP, only issues like cost and needing a slightly thicker layer to pass the same safety standards. Doesn't really explain why Sweet Protection changed from EPP to EPS... they don't seem like a style-over-substance company to me. There's at least one company other than POC still selling EPP ski helmets though (Protec).

riph wrote:
IMHO the trend toward low profile helmets like the Giro Combyn is just stupid.


Bern now boast that their helmets pass the same safety standards as their competitors, but using a thinner layer of foam for a more low profile look. Probably another sign that there's something amiss with the safety standards!

The Combyn is an odd one though... soft foam might be good for low-energy repeated impacts, but soft foam in a low profile shell is starting to look a bit pointless. I was considering something like that for my incompetent attempts to play on rails in our local snow dome, but it seems like it might be a little bit too minimal for my liking. I don't fancy finding out that it wasn't up to the job after I've bashed my head.
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kendoddsdadsdogsdead, this echoes my experience precisely:

Dr Rock wrote:
Quote:

Anyone any experience/views on Smith helmets?

Love my 2011 Variant Brim. I wasn't looking for a Smith, but the Bolle/POC/Sweet helmets didn't fit my head, which was a shame 'cos I originally wanted the Bolle as they were a good price and I loved the look of the Sweet Trooper. Uvex or Giro was the choice for fit, then the guy brought out the Smith and even though it was more than I really wanted to pay, for me it ticked all the boxes. Double layer protection, better and more adjustable venting than the Giro's and it fit perfectly.

Job done. Love it. It's well warm and has been brilliant.


It's all about fit though. Check first and you may need to wear for more than 5 mins (I owned a Sweet helmet that gave me a splitting headache after 2 hours the first time I wore it in anger).
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Sharkymark, thanks for that. I have never worn a helmet skiing before, it's been 7/8 yrs since I last skied. We are going at the start of Feb on our first family ski trip, for my wife & children this will be their first ski holiday.

I ask about the Smith helmets as I tried on a friends Smith helmet and really liked the fit of it. But never having worn a helmet before and not seeing the Smith brand mentioned in the thread I was looking for a bit of feedback.

Cheers
ski holidays
 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
If this thread was driven by Schumacher's accident, looks like Angela Merkel's accident is gonna mean we all need a big árse Shocked
snow conditions
 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ratae Corieltauvorum, hip protectors?
latest report



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